Latest School Shooting

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To the bolded, I don't know the age of your son but... I grew up with violent video games. Mortal Kombat was played by my sister and brother in law alot, including with us kids. You could turn on or off the really bad blood but I saw and played with it on several times. It wasn't quite as graphic then, I mean the processors couldn't have it in the level of movie animation that they can now but it was still really violent. There were also guns in my home since I was born. My father hunts. There were several that weren't locked up granted they were so old and uncared for (old ones he hung on the wall) I doubt they would have fired properly. He took the ammo out of his guns and would leave the gun around during hunting season I can picture where it was... as for the ammo... I knew where that was too he didn't tell me but I remember running into it looking for something else becuase it took me a while to realize what it was.

In my area so many people hunt from a young age that many many people grew up with this violence. The number of people that do this are much much lower.

He is 34. Played Mario for years. Then it was Sonic the Hedghog and a few alien type games.

He was an older teen when he started playing more violent games. I think Mortal Combat was the first one. Or maybe it was the one where you steal cars and shoot people in the process or some such.
 
Until what age?

Take my grandson. He has hunted his whole life. He has had gun safety courses several times. He has complete respect for a gun and owns a couple. He owns his own hunting dogs. He buys them, he takes care of them, he trains them. He goes hunting. His gun is unloaded when he gets in the truck and loaded when he gets to where he is hunting. He brings it home, unloaded and locks it in the safe until the next time he goes hunting. He is 16. So, in your mind it should be illegal for him to have access to his guns so that he can hunt with his dogs when he is more cautious and more alert to gun safety than most grown men.

Yes. If he can't legally drink beer he shouldn't be allowed to handle firearms.
 
Yes. If he can't legally drink beer he shouldn't be allowed to handle firearms.

Well I don’t totally 100% disagree but I see the reasons for the push back on such a law. He isn’t the exception for kids that grow up with hunting. For many of them they have been taught gun safety and respect for guns their entire life. As younger children, their parents showed them constantly the correct handling of fire arms and when they are old enough and responsible enough, they handle them more on their own. I have several nephews that grew up the same way.

Not sure what the connection to beer is? I would prefer a person with a gun not be able to drink beer.

Besides the drinking age is 21. So basically that is saying “you can join the military and protect our country with a gun but you cannot handle a gun to hunt deer with”.

I don’t mean to sound like I would fight any gun laws. I wouldn’t. But I do see the other side to it too.
 


How are you going to enforce it? Go into people’s homes?

Seat belt laws are a little different. Police can easily see if the law is not being followed. Not the same as in someone’s house. By the time they find out someone isn’t keeping their guns locked up, the deed will be done. And we still haven’t stopped the next school shooting.

I mean I have no problems with guns being locked up. Dh’s are right now. ODS keeps his under lock and key. My bil built a special closet in his house to keep his gun safe in and the closet is locked as well as the safe. I really don’t know anyone who would have an issue with it. I am just not sure it’s an answer to the problem.

Just as most people stick within a few MPH of the speed limit and wear their seatbelts even when there is no cop in sight, just knowing it is the law (and that there are consequences for the gun owners, not just the shooter, if their unsecured guns are used in a crime) will prompt more people to think about how they store their weapons and take precautions.

It is an answer to other problems as well - firearms are a common target of breaking & entering theft, which then end up resold via Craigslist, Facebook and other person-to-person (off the books) marketplaces, and those who buy weapons expressly to pass off to those who are already barred by law from owning them often use theft to shield themselves from responsibility. Storage and reporting rules (not reporting the ownership, but requiring the theft of a weapon be reported to police) would address those situations as well.

Until what age?

Take my grandson. He has hunted his whole life. He has had gun safety courses several times. He has complete respect for a gun and owns a couple. He owns his own hunting dogs. He buys them, he takes care of them, he trains them. He goes hunting. His gun is unloaded when he gets in the truck and loaded when he gets to where he is hunting. He brings it home, unloaded and locks it in the safe until the next time he goes hunting. He is 16. So, in your mind it should be illegal for him to have access to his guns so that he can hunt with his dogs when he is more cautious and more alert to gun safety than most grown men.

I don't know about where you live, but here, a minor has to be with an adult to hunt. If it is illegal for the kid to be shooting by himself, why would it be a problem for a parent/grandparent/guardian to have to unlock the gun safe before they can head out? Isn't that a pretty minor inconvenience for the sake of reducing gun violence committed by underage shooters (mass shootings and otherwise)?
 
Just as most people stick within a few MPH of the speed limit and wear their seatbelts even when there is no cop in sight, just knowing it is the law (and that there are consequences for the gun owners, not just the shooter, if their unsecured guns are used in a crime) will prompt more people to think about how they store their weapons and take precautions.

It is an answer to other problems as well - firearms are a common target of breaking & entering theft, which then end up resold via Craigslist, Facebook and other person-to-person (off the books) marketplaces, and those who buy weapons expressly to pass off to those who are already barred by law from owning them often use theft to shield themselves from responsibility. Storage and reporting rules (not reporting the ownership, but requiring the theft of a weapon be reported to police) would address those situations as well.



I don't know about where you live, but here, a minor has to be with an adult to hunt. If it is illegal for the kid to be shooting by himself, why would it be a problem for a parent/grandparent/guardian to have to unlock the gun safe before they can head out? Isn't that a pretty minor inconvenience for the sake of reducing gun violence committed by underage shooters (mass shootings and otherwise)?

I am just saying why there would be a push back against such a law. Here they have to be under the direct supervision until they are 12, which is a little young imo. For a lot of states 16 seems to be the magic age. The parent/guardian/grandparent having to unlock the gun safe would be all great but once the gun is handed to the kid, he still has it. (just to be clear, my grandson's guns are locked up when not in use, he just has the ability to get them) Have we actually done anything or just made folks feel better?

And yes, the gun safe does keep the gun in the possession of the owner. Honestly the reason most people have them is to stop them from being stolen. I do think all guns should be properly locked up in a home. To keep young children from getting them and to keep them from getting in the hands of criminals. Ours are locked up as is most people's I know. Gone are the days of past when you would walk into a lot of homes and see guns just leaning up against the wall or hanging on the wall. For most people this isn't a reality anymore anyway.

Again, do we know how the boy in Sante Fe obtained the guns? Were they locked up or just laying around?

If someone legally owns a gun, why would they not report the theft?
 
Have Red Flag laws come up in these threads?
Just curious, I don't recall seeing much mentioned about them and have seen in recent news that CA has expanded (or is trying) and MA is passing some.
I'm personally for them, they are a way to get guns out of the hands of those who are mentally unstable, and keep them out if there is a valid reason found. If we can't have some sort of database that red flags people trying to buy guns then IMO this is the next best thing.
 


This is an interesting psychological analysis of mass shooters. Here is a part of it http://www.whywesuffer.com/the-psychology-behind-mass-shootings/
"While some mass shooters are psychotic or schizophrenic, only about five percent of violence in the United States can be attributed to people with mental illness. The rate of mental illness is higher—an estimated 20 percent—among rampage or serial killers. Most of the mass murders didn’t qualify for any specific psychiatric disorder, according to strict criteria. These individuals—often working-class men who had been jilted, fired, and felt humiliated, or youths who felt rejected and despised—lived next door to neighbors who never imagined them capable of such crimes.

We would like to believe that the behavior of the shooters is foreign to human nature, not something intrinsic in our psyche. Or we say that a gun-worshipping culture is to blame. Yet might there be another factor, some common element at the heart of human nature, to account in part for these horrendous events?

Let’s start by examining a profile that fits many mass shooters. These murderers are often quite intelligent, yet through acute self-centeredness they are likely to be socially awkward or inept. They crave notice and fame to compensate for how deeply they dismiss their own value and feel like nobodies. They also lack empathy and have little or no affect, a condition that relates to the indifference or disdain they have for their own existence.

Negative emotions accumulate inside them, producing bitterness, anger, despair, and, finally, rage. Their rage, even when hidden from others, produces a third-rate sense of power that covers up their emotional entanglement in hopelessness and passivity. They crave power because they feel so powerless, yet in their dark negativity they can express only negative, destructive power. They seek death because they feel so powerfully overwhelmed by life.

Because their weak self-regulation compels them to continually recycle negative emotions, they hold on to grudges. These grudges and grievances accumulate in them, giving them a feeling of substance, a place of being to which they cling in the chaos of their inner conflict.

The killer-to-be has also passively allowed himself to plunge so deeply into self-abandonment and self-hatred—meaning his aggressive rejection of all that is good or decent in him—that, like a drowning person, he gasps for the one last “breath” of the only power now available to him, which is to do evil.

An additional factor shapes these menacing time-bombs. These killers-to-be have acquired a fervent interest in guns. Influenced by others, they passively elevate the gun or the rifle to level of a fetish. In another time and place, they’re the kind of people who might have joined a cult. For a troubled individual who is drowning in negativity, to adore guns is to worship death.

From this we can assume that the murderous instincts of rampage shooters originate from profound inner weakness and emotional conflict in their psyche. Their aggression, in part, is based on their reaction to their overflowing negative emotions and their resulting lack of self-regulation. By way of comparison, many everyday people have considerable deposits of anger, cynicism, and bitterness. They hold on to this negativity for dear life. Convinced that their bitterness is justified by the alleged cruelty or insensitivity of others, they express various levels of malice toward others. This is the key point: We have to learn and understand that our bitterness is not due to the malice of others. Rather, the bitterness and rage we may experience is a cover-up for our willingness to indulge in feeling victimized in some manner or other. If we don’t understand this, then the difference between us and rampage shooters is just a matter of degree.

To heed Jung’s warning, we must grow our consciousness. This inner progress would enable parents, teachers, clergy, and others to become more insightful about the emotional state of others and more confident about initiating some form of intervention. As well, potential killers will likely moderate their deadly instincts when they are surrounded by more conscious people, exposed to better psychological knowledge, and made through saner weapons regulation to understand that the death instinct, easily spawned where weapons are sanctified, is a social taboo. "
 
Have Red Flag laws come up in these threads?
Just curious, I don't recall seeing much mentioned about them and have seen in recent news that CA has expanded (or is trying) and MA is passing some.
I'm personally for them, they are a way to get guns out of the hands of those who are mentally unstable, and keep them out if there is a valid reason found. If we can't have some sort of database that red flags people trying to buy guns then IMO this is the next best thing.

This is something that I can totally get behind. We need to be able to get guns out of the hands of mentally ill. IMO, this is a law that will do something not just look good on paper.
 
The killer-to-be has also passively allowed himself to plunge so deeply into self-abandonment and self-hatred—meaning his aggressive rejection of all that is good or decent in him—that, like a drowning person, he gasps for the one last “breath” of the only power now available to him, which is to do evil.

This part struck me because it reminded me of a couple of other discussions I've either had or heard lately.

One was about the overscheduled nature of childhood today, and how kids don't have the kind of time to play and daydream that they used to. - I wonder if this is one factor in that "rejection of all that is good or decent in him"? - Are the kids just not figuring out who they are, and what kind of people they want to be, early enough to stop them from even considering these horrible crimes?


The other was about the "pendulum swing" that's happening because of recent efforts to get girls more involved in STEM, etc. We're constantly reminding girls that "you're just as good as the boys" but we're not reminding boys that "you're just as good as the girls" and I really think the self-esteem of boys is taking a hit. I think it's one of the reasons that the typical profile of these shooters is a young male.

I'm certainly not saying we should repress girls to help boys. But I think right now we're assuming the girls need all the attention and the boys are fine, when really the boys need just as much "building up" from us in their own way - especially early on, when statistically, the girls actually are ahead in many of the types of skills needed to succeed in school:

"Once in school, girls are one to one-and-a-half years ahead of boys in reading and writing. Boys are twice as likely to have a language or reading problem and three to four times more likely to stutter. Girls do better on tests of verbal memory, spelling and verbal fluency."
http://www.pbs.org/parents/experts/archive/2012/09/boy-and-girl-brains-whats-the.html
 
This part struck me because it reminded me of a couple of other discussions I've either had or heard lately.

One was about the overscheduled nature of childhood today, and how kids don't have the kind of time to play and daydream that they used to. - I wonder if this is one factor in that "rejection of all that is good or decent in him"? - Are the kids just not figuring out who they are, and what kind of people they want to be, early enough to stop them from even considering these horrible crimes?


The other was about the "pendulum swing" that's happening because of recent efforts to get girls more involved in STEM, etc. We're constantly reminding girls that "you're just as good as the boys" but we're not reminding boys that "you're just as good as the girls" and I really think the self-esteem of boys is taking a hit. I think it's one of the reasons that the typical profile of these shooters is a young male.

I'm certainly not saying we should repress girls to help boys. But I think right now we're assuming the girls need all the attention and the boys are fine, when really the boys need just as much "building up" from us in their own way - especially early on, when statistically, the girls actually are ahead in many of the types of skills needed to succeed in school:

"Once in school, girls are one to one-and-a-half years ahead of boys in reading and writing. Boys are twice as likely to have a language or reading problem and three to four times more likely to stutter. Girls do better on tests of verbal memory, spelling and verbal fluency."
http://www.pbs.org/parents/experts/archive/2012/09/boy-and-girl-brains-whats-the.html
It is sometimes terrible, what happens to one group when you try to lift up another.

Liking that you are giving that information, not the outcome for most boys. (Most as in statistically)
 
It is sometimes terrible, what happens to one group when you try to lift up another.

Liking that you are giving that information, not the outcome for most boys. (Most as in statistically)

And it is that way sooo much of the time. we swing so far the other way to right a wrong that we leave a wrong on the other end.
 
The thing about better laws is not just that they will or will not be followed, they are also a tool law enforcement can use.
 
This part struck me because it reminded me of a couple of other discussions I've either had or heard lately.

One was about the overscheduled nature of childhood today, and how kids don't have the kind of time to play and daydream that they used to. - I wonder if this is one factor in that "rejection of all that is good or decent in him"? - Are the kids just not figuring out who they are, and what kind of people they want to be, early enough to stop them from even considering these horrible crimes?


The other was about the "pendulum swing" that's happening because of recent efforts to get girls more involved in STEM, etc. We're constantly reminding girls that "you're just as good as the boys" but we're not reminding boys that "you're just as good as the girls" and I really think the self-esteem of boys is taking a hit. I think it's one of the reasons that the typical profile of these shooters is a young male.

I'm certainly not saying we should repress girls to help boys. But I think right now we're assuming the girls need all the attention and the boys are fine, when really the boys need just as much "building up" from us in their own way - especially early on, when statistically, the girls actually are ahead in many of the types of skills needed to succeed in school:

"Once in school, girls are one to one-and-a-half years ahead of boys in reading and writing. Boys are twice as likely to have a language or reading problem and three to four times more likely to stutter. Girls do better on tests of verbal memory, spelling and verbal fluency."
http://www.pbs.org/parents/experts/archive/2012/09/boy-and-girl-brains-whats-the.html

Wait. Now we're blaming school shootings on a positive push to get girls in STEM fields?
I honestly can't even formulate any words in response to that.
 
He is 34. Played Mario for years. Then it was Sonic the Hedghog and a few alien type games.

He was an older teen when he started playing more violent games. I think Mortal Combat was the first one. Or maybe it was the one where you steal cars and shoot people in the process or some such.
Ok so he didn't grown up with them only because he didn't have the first few Mortal Kombat games. He is only a few years older then me so they were definitely out before he was an older teen. I wouldn't have choosen those games and I doubt my parents would have bought them for me but well.. I had older siblings with their own houses and I played the games they played.
 
This is something that I can totally get behind. We need to be able to get guns out of the hands of mentally ill. IMO, this is a law that will do something not just look good on paper.

There’s a process for this, currently.
 
There’s a process for this, currently.

It seems everything I have read has been that red flag laws are being considered by individual states since Parkland, there were a few states where they were in effect but not the majority. Admittedly I don't know much about them and who has them as I hadn't been aware of them until now. I'm sure there is a wealth of info out there, I just haven't taken the time to find it though.

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/03/red-flag-laws-gvro-parkland-mass-shooting/
 
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