Large number of restaurants with no availability???

[Disneyliscious]

I have a hard time believing that Disney is not aware of TP's activities since there is hardly any Disney fan forum that doesn't mention them but time will tell

I recall reading somewhere along that time that Disney does not give permission or become contractually obligated in any way for any outside party/service to use their website. A lot of what that letter says is legal jargon to cover bases but I can guarantee you that IF touring plans had Disney's permission, they'd be boasting it proudly on their website.

 

[Smbmoyers]

The reason the other services were shut down is because they charged a fee and were profiting off snagging reservations for people if i remember correctly. Our November trip two years ago was ridiculously hard to find good adrs for. I did score BOG less than 24 hours before my trip started though

 

[lentesta]

I have personally read a copy of the C&D letter from Disney when they shut down a slew of these types of "reservation finder" sites a few years back. It's only a matter of time before the TP version is found out and will be shut down as well. It has nothing to do with charging or not. Its the illegal access. ^

I own TouringPlans. We fully comply with Disney's terms & conditions for the reservation finder. We received a similar C&D almost three years ago. We responded. That was the end of it.

Two points in Disney's T&C's that others seemed to miss were these:

1. Travel agencies are specifically allowed to use MDE for commercial purposes, including making dining and FP reservations on behalf of their clients.
2. Reservations have to be made by people.

Prior to building the reservation finder, we became an IATA-certified travel agency. That took many thousands of dollars and roughly six months. Next, we registered our new travel agency with Disney, started booking trips, and receiving commission checks from Disney.

Then we built technology that allowed us to out-task the searching. We found a company in southeast Asia that provides around-the-clock data-entry staff for exceptionally reasonable rates. Our stats team did some interesting analysis to figure out how to cover the maximum number of requests with the fewest number of keystrokes. (It helps that 90% of requests are for 6 restaurants, and that the Dining Request page has the options it does.)

I don't think the people who wrote the T&Cs expected anyone to come up with this solution. I spoke with most of the companies that received these C&Ds, and none of them attempted these steps to comply with the T&Cs. That's the key difference.

We lose a tiny amount of money on each reservation search. We think the expense is worth it, as researchers and journalists, because we're able to inform families with specific data about which restaurants are difficult to get reservations for. We also provide alternatives that are easier to get, with food just as good. Like the free Least Expensive Ticket Calculator and free touring plans, we consider this work part of our contribution to the "public good" within the Disney community.

I'll close by noting that recent court rulings have indicated that research and journalism are exempt from certain aspects of the CFAA cited in the C&D, on First Amendment grounds. That's new since these C&Ds went out. We supported the ACLU's challenge to the CFAA in part because of the C&D we received.

Len

 

[lentesta]

I recall reading somewhere along that time that Disney does not give permission or become contractually obligated in any way for any outside party/service to use their website. A lot of what that letter says is legal jargon to cover bases but I can guarantee you that IF touring plans had Disney's permission, they'd be boasting it proudly on their website.

Or, you know, we could move on quietly and work on other things. That's also an option.

 

[Runnsally]

I own TouringPlans. We fully comply with Disney's terms & conditions for the reservation finder. We received a similar C&D almost three years ago. We responded. That was the end of it.

Two points in Disney's T&C's that others seemed to miss were these:

1. Travel agencies are specifically allowed to use MDE for commercial purposes, including making dining and FP reservations on behalf of their clients.
2. Reservations have to be made by people.

Prior to building the reservation finder, we became an IATA-certified travel agency. That took many thousands of dollars and roughly six months. Next, we registered our new travel agency with Disney, started booking trips, and receiving commission checks from Disney.

Then we built technology that allowed us to out-task the searching. We found a company in southeast Asia that provides around-the-clock data-entry staff for exceptionally reasonable rates. Our stats team did some interesting analysis to figure out how to cover the maximum number of requests with the fewest number of keystrokes. (It helps that 90% of requests are for 6 restaurants, and that the Dining Request page has the options it does.)

I don't think the people who wrote the T&Cs expected anyone to come up with this solution. I spoke with most of the companies that received these C&Ds, and none of them attempted these steps to comply with the T&Cs. That's the key difference.

We lose a tiny amount of money on each reservation search. We think the expense is worth it, as researchers and journalists, because we're able to inform families with specific data about which restaurants are difficult to get reservations for. We also provide alternatives that are easier to get, with food just as good. Like the free Least Expensive Ticket Calculator and free touring plans, we consider this work part of our contribution to the "public good" within the Disney community.

I'll close by noting that recent court rulings have indicated that research and journalism are exempt from certain aspects of the CFAA cited in the C&D, on First Amendment grounds. That's new since these C&Ds went out. We supported the ACLU's challenge to the CFAA in part because of the C&D we received.

Len

Love your work Len. Thanks so much for Touringplans.

 

[JerseyJanice]

I am no lawyer, but I think it’s obvious that Disney does not want anybody selling ADRs. If anyone were going to sell ADRs, it would be Disney themselves.

You don’t even have to purchase an account in order to use TP’s ADR service. That is why it’s legitimate.

 

[gharter]

I own TouringPlans. We fully comply with Disney's terms & conditions for the reservation finder. We received a similar C&D almost three years ago. We responded. That was the end of it.

Two points in Disney's T&C's that others seemed to miss were these:

1. Travel agencies are specifically allowed to use MDE for commercial purposes, including making dining and FP reservations on behalf of their clients.
2. Reservations have to be made by people.

Prior to building the reservation finder, we became an IATA-certified travel agency. That took many thousands of dollars and roughly six months. Next, we registered our new travel agency with Disney, started booking trips, and receiving commission checks from Disney.

Then we built technology that allowed us to out-task the searching. We found a company in southeast Asia that provides around-the-clock data-entry staff for exceptionally reasonable rates. Our stats team did some interesting analysis to figure out how to cover the maximum number of requests with the fewest number of keystrokes. (It helps that 90% of requests are for 6 restaurants, and that the Dining Request page has the options it does.)

I don't think the people who wrote the T&Cs expected anyone to come up with this solution. I spoke with most of the companies that received these C&Ds, and none of them attempted these steps to comply with the T&Cs. That's the key difference.

We lose a tiny amount of money on each reservation search. We think the expense is worth it, as researchers and journalists, because we're able to inform families with specific data about which restaurants are difficult to get reservations for. We also provide alternatives that are easier to get, with food just as good. Like the free Least Expensive Ticket Calculator and free touring plans, we consider this work part of our contribution to the "public good" within the Disney community.

I'll close by noting that recent court rulings have indicated that research and journalism are exempt from certain aspects of the CFAA cited in the C&D, on First Amendment grounds. That's new since these C&Ds went out. We supported the ACLU's challenge to the CFAA in part because of the C&D we received.

Len

Thanks for the explanation.
Another one that loves touring plans.

 

[uncleozzy]

Thanks for the explanation, Len. Color me surprised.

 

[Disneyliscious]

I own TouringPlans. We fully comply with Disney's terms & conditions for the reservation finder. We received a similar C&D almost three years ago. We responded. That was the end of it.

Two points in Disney's T&C's that others seemed to miss were these:

1. Travel agencies are specifically allowed to use MDE for commercial purposes, including making dining and FP reservations on behalf of their clients.
2. Reservations have to be made by people.

Prior to building the reservation finder, we became an IATA-certified travel agency. That took many thousands of dollars and roughly six months. Next, we registered our new travel agency with Disney, started booking trips, and receiving commission checks from Disney.

Then we built technology that allowed us to out-task the searching. We found a company in southeast Asia that provides around-the-clock data-entry staff for exceptionally reasonable rates. Our stats team did some interesting analysis to figure out how to cover the maximum number of requests with the fewest number of keystrokes. (It helps that 90% of requests are for 6 restaurants, and that the Dining Request page has the options it does.)

I don't think the people who wrote the T&Cs expected anyone to come up with this solution. I spoke with most of the companies that received these C&Ds, and none of them attempted these steps to comply with the T&Cs. That's the key difference.

We lose a tiny amount of money on each reservation search. We think the expense is worth it, as researchers and journalists, because we're able to inform families with specific data about which restaurants are difficult to get reservations for. We also provide alternatives that are easier to get, with food just as good. Like the free Least Expensive Ticket Calculator and free touring plans, we consider this work part of our contribution to the "public good" within the Disney community.

I'll close by noting that recent court rulings have indicated that research and journalism are exempt from certain aspects of the CFAA cited in the C&D, on First Amendment grounds. That's new since these C&Ds went out. We supported the ACLU's challenge to the CFAA in part because of the C&D we received.

Len

Thank you for that information. I am going to pass it along to the recipient of the C&D letter I posted here and see if they are interested in reopening their business. If i remember correctly, they did not use any programs or bots and it was all done by hand. A lot has changed in 3 years Seeing as to Disney now allows these kinds of ADR finders with certain criteria met, I'm sure we'll be seeing a few more of them pop up. This is good to know.

 

[Patrick N]

I think it's awesome that you took the time to write this response. I think it makes people feel a lot better about the issue since you provided such a clear and concise explanation. I might not have been as willing as you were to explain the whole system, thinking that these methods are the "secret sauce" of your business but you did and that's great. I probably would have just said that "we fully comply with all of Disney's Terms of Service" and let it go at that, but that's just me! And I was a subscriber before you posted this and I was OK with your company just as it is.

 

[lentesta]

Thank you for that information. I am going to pass it along to the recipient of the C&D letter I posted here and see if they are interested in reopening their business. If i remember correctly, they did not use any programs or bots and it was all done by hand. A lot has changed in 3 years Seeing as to Disney now allows these kinds of ADR finders with certain criteria met, I'm sure we'll be seeing a few more of them pop up. This is good to know.

Tell Matt I said hey.

 

[Disneyliscious]

Tell Matt I said hey.

I only know 2 Matts. One is in the military and the other plays in an online game I play. Regretfully, I won't be able to relay your message to whoever Matt is. While I know you like to think you know who the business owner was that the letter was sent to, I can tell you with 110% certainty that you don't.

 

[Disneyliscious]

I think it's awesome that you took the time to write this response. I think it makes people feel a lot better about the issue since you provided such a clear and concise explanation. I might not have been as willing as you were to explain the whole system, thinking that these methods are the "secret sauce" of your business but you did and that's great. I probably would have just said that "we fully comply with all of Disney's Terms of Service" and let it go at that, but that's just me! And I was a subscriber before you posted this and I was OK with your company just as it is.

It was a wonderful explanation, and it was a truthful one it appears. However, they do not have permission from Disney to use the reservation finder tool. They are breaking Disney's TOS by allowing it to be used. Irrespective of the fact they are a travel agency, it specifically states in the TOS that all searches must be done by a person. I don't think TP has someone sitting there 24/7 searching for reservations and then sending out texts about it.

For the record, I have used the TP ADR finder and got a BOG lunch for a large party within the past 48 hours from it. You won't see me saying a word to Disney about it but eventually it will get noticed and it will be shut down. Mark my word.

 

[CJN]

I own TouringPlans. We fully comply with Disney's terms & conditions for the reservation finder. We received a similar C&D almost three years ago. We responded. That was the end of it.

Two points in Disney's T&C's that others seemed to miss were these:

1. Travel agencies are specifically allowed to use MDE for commercial purposes, including making dining and FP reservations on behalf of their clients.
2. Reservations have to be made by people.

Prior to building the reservation finder, we became an IATA-certified travel agency. That took many thousands of dollars and roughly six months. Next, we registered our new travel agency with Disney, started booking trips, and receiving commission checks from Disney.

Then we built technology that allowed us to out-task the searching. We found a company in southeast Asia that provides around-the-clock data-entry staff for exceptionally reasonable rates. Our stats team did some interesting analysis to figure out how to cover the maximum number of requests with the fewest number of keystrokes. (It helps that 90% of requests are for 6 restaurants, and that the Dining Request page has the options it does.)

I don't think the people who wrote the T&Cs expected anyone to come up with this solution. I spoke with most of the companies that received these C&Ds, and none of them attempted these steps to comply with the T&Cs. That's the key difference.

We lose a tiny amount of money on each reservation search. We think the expense is worth it, as researchers and journalists, because we're able to inform families with specific data about which restaurants are difficult to get reservations for. We also provide alternatives that are easier to get, with food just as good. Like the free Least Expensive Ticket Calculator and free touring plans, we consider this work part of our contribution to the "public good" within the Disney community.

I'll close by noting that recent court rulings have indicated that research and journalism are exempt from certain aspects of the CFAA cited in the C&D, on First Amendment grounds. That's new since these C&Ds went out. We supported the ACLU's challenge to the CFAA in part because of the C&D we received.

Len

Another huge fan here. The reservation finder is just the icing on the cake.

 

[soniam]

Man, it’s such a shame when a good thread goes bad To the OP, the suggestions of free dining, ADRs not in the system, and using the reservation finder are spot on. Good luck getting the ADRs you wanted.

@lentesta Love the site, the Unnofficial Guide, the podcasts, and most importantly, the personalized touring plans. Keep up the great work.

 

[hereforthechurros]

I own TouringPlans. We fully comply with Disney's terms & conditions for the reservation finder. We received a similar C&D almost three years ago. We responded. That was the end of it.

Two points in Disney's T&C's that others seemed to miss were these:

1. Travel agencies are specifically allowed to use MDE for commercial purposes, including making dining and FP reservations on behalf of their clients.
2. Reservations have to be made by people.

Prior to building the reservation finder, we became an IATA-certified travel agency. That took many thousands of dollars and roughly six months. Next, we registered our new travel agency with Disney, started booking trips, and receiving commission checks from Disney.

Then we built technology that allowed us to out-task the searching. We found a company in southeast Asia that provides around-the-clock data-entry staff for exceptionally reasonable rates. Our stats team did some interesting analysis to figure out how to cover the maximum number of requests with the fewest number of keystrokes. (It helps that 90% of requests are for 6 restaurants, and that the Dining Request page has the options it does.)

I don't think the people who wrote the T&Cs expected anyone to come up with this solution. I spoke with most of the companies that received these C&Ds, and none of them attempted these steps to comply with the T&Cs. That's the key difference.

We lose a tiny amount of money on each reservation search. We think the expense is worth it, as researchers and journalists, because we're able to inform families with specific data about which restaurants are difficult to get reservations for. We also provide alternatives that are easier to get, with food just as good. Like the free Least Expensive Ticket Calculator and free touring plans, we consider this work part of our contribution to the "public good" within the Disney community.

I'll close by noting that recent court rulings have indicated that research and journalism are exempt from certain aspects of the CFAA cited in the C&D, on First Amendment grounds. That's new since these C&Ds went out. We supported the ACLU's challenge to the CFAA in part because of the C&D we received.

Len

This was fascinating to read. I appreciate TouringPlans’ services immensely and show it in the form of my yearly subscription and good word of mouth on the boards. Thanks for laying this out!

 

[lentesta]

I don't think TP has someone sitting there 24/7 searching for reservations and then sending out texts about it.

I have a contract and timesheets.

I'm signing off from this thread. Thanks for the support, folks. @Disneyliscious, thanks for explaining how my company is run. Good conversation. Every time we talk, my love of discussion boards is renewed.

 

[Disneyliscious]

I have a contract and timesheets.

I'm signing off from this thread. Thanks for the support, folks. @Disneyliscious, thanks for explaining how my company is run. Good conversation. Every time we talk, my love of discussion boards is renewed.

The defensiveness in your post speaks volumes. There is no possible way that TP is paying people to sit there and randomly search for ADR's and then send texts to people. There is no money to be made on this for you. It doesn't make business sense to do such a thing. You can produce all the time sheets in the world but Disney has far more legal dollars than you do. You have a bot program crawling their website to check for ADR's which is against the TOS. You are providing this service to the general public which is against the TOS. I personally don't care what you do but your sitting here lying about it makes your business ethics look very, very bad. Not all of us are stupid, my dear.

 

[mster425]

Well this escalated quickly.

You do you, Len. Love TP.

Good luck OP!

 

[Nancyg56]

I have a contract and timesheets.

I'm signing off from this thread. Thanks for the support, folks. @Disneyliscious, thanks for explaining how my company is run. Good conversation. Every time we talk, my love of discussion boards is renewed.

Thank you for the explanation Len. I use TP for it's crowd planner and find the low subscription cost a value simply for that tool. I have never needed the ADR finder, but appreciate that it has helped so many. I also firmly believe that Disney knows it it there, and if there was an issue it would have been addressed. Thanks again!