E-Ticket Nights- Just a Replacement for Late Hours or a Real Deal

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by Pinnie
I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

True, but that doesn't mean we can't better explain the reasoning behind our opinions, no?

I don't feel "Screwed" paying extra for e-ticket night. IF the hours were in writing somewhere, then I could say I agree with you. But as the disclaimer usually says, "Hours subject to change without notice". I also don't think it is "punishment" as much as it is "rewarding" the guests staying onsite. It is all in the perception.

But again DL stays open much later & MK is the flagship park, so shouldn't there be a little parity among the two, especially with WDW having a higher percentage of visitors that aren't local? I'd feel the same way if the park consitently opened to the public at 9am & had an EE at 7am, then changed it to where the new opening times are 11am & started EE at 9am.

As to AK, I understand that the park's open/close cycle is dependant upon animals. But, FL is on Daylight Savings Time, and during the summer the sun is out a LOT longer ....following that out, why isn't DAK open later in the evening when it's a bit cooler, because we all know that park is a sauna in the summer? Zoos up here do have longer hours in the summer. Just musing.....

Because most guests view AK as a half-day park (much like MGM) & wouldn't want to really spend a full day there. Believe me if there was a way to convince guests to pay extra for staying longer at that park, they'd do it in a heartbeat, but the truth is they can't. Epcot is the only other park it might work at, but with as much walking needed as it does people are usually exhausted anyway. I do feel that the parks should run on a later schedule & wouldn't mind it a bit if it opened at, say 11am & didn't close until 11pm or 12am.

I am an AP holder, and try and come down 2 - 4 times a yr. so it really doesn't matter all that much if WS opens later than FW.

True, but for most guests the trip is either a one time thing or the trips are few & far between. I think if you polled most repeat guests (barring locals & the freaks like us ) you'd find that most of them only come once every 2-5 years. While it might not be a big deal to you, it might be to them.

As to DL, I was there last year and was disappointed how many attractions were down for rehab. The monorail was only operating one way, Matterhorn was down and don't even get me started on DCA!!! Only thing there that was worthwhile was Soaring. But it got me to thinking about *maybe* why they can extend their hours longer than WDW. They save a ton of money on transportation costs. They don't have to shuttle guests back and forth to resorts, and since they don't have the number of onsite resort guests, e-ticket nights are moot.

I went in '99 & the monorail was only going one way (because of construction for DCA) & then I went in April 2001. Most of the rides were operational & if they were down, they weren't down for long. You do make a good point about the transportation, though wouldn't cutting down from a bus for each hotel to consolidating the bus to stop at all of the hotels make sense? We usually stay at the Disney Village, so we do share a bus with 8 or so other hotels. It seems sensable & I've never seen a completely empty bus. Perhaps I'm wrong & a DL guru can help me on this, but I believe that for a period of time they did offer e-nights & I know for a fact that they offer EE, even though they don't really need to.

I guess I would be more upset if Disney was the ONLY company that is cutting some things that we, as long time guests, are used too, but they are not. I fly down and no longer get in-flight meals (Ok I know...airline food sucks) but it's not offered any more (nor can I even BUY a sandwich on board) and my ticket prices have risen ( that's the perk of living in a city that is a hub to a major airline).

Yes, but we've come to expect more from Disney. If the shady guy down the street or even your grocer that you've been going to for years pulls a fast one on you, you just shake your head & either accept it or move on. If your uncle does it (& continually does it), you can't help but feel a deep sense of disappointment & sorrow.

Will any of these things keep me away? Nope. I know the bottom line is Disney is a business and needs to answer to the stockholders first, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise. If I don't like something, I will complain and hope that someone is listening. But I will choose my battles and if means closing a park a few hours early as opposed to closing a park altogether, then I know where my energy will go.

I realize where you're coming from, but I can't make myself believe that it's "this or nothing". I've never really been one to "settle" for things (maybe that's why I'm still single ), especially when someone changes the deal or expectations just because of money. Yes, it is important, but if that's the sole factor driving the company these days, then Walt's dream truly is dead.

People buy Hondas because they last, they've come to expect quality & are willing to pay for it. Honda could lower the quality, while still charging what they had before. If they do though, they better let the folks know what they're getting themselves into & slap a Kia emblem over the H. They also shouldn't whine (or fire some random scapegoat) when people call them out for having a lesser quality product & sales drop. You can only ride on a repuation for so long & while it takes years to build a name, it only takes moments to destroy it. I just don't want the name Disney to be interchangable with the likes of Six Flags, etc.

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
So how, and when did that change - and did it change completely? Now remember, we aren't talking the 80's and a 1 am close as a reference point. That was a decade gone by and we can't live in the past.

Yes, but we can't ask why it was ok then to stay open that late & now they have to close at 6pm?

Lets wander down 90's memory lane. It is the Early 90's. The MK is open until midnight in the summer - EVERY NIGHT!!! (caps and exclamation thrown in for Baron - he likes those things ). What larry described above is the way to go. You still have that wonderful latenight (granted, not 1 am) when you finished watching the fireworks, or even the late parade, and then rode Splash Mountain three times in a row - WALK ON!!! Barons pixie dust filled the air.

Yes, I do (pardon the pun) remember the magic.

FAst forward to the late 90's and the advent of E-night in response to.........whatever. Now the park closes at 11 . However, a new option - for $10 you can stay in the park for another three hours. Most of your favorite rides are open and there is NOBODY!!! there. BTW - there were still two, count em two, parades and the fireworks. If you saw the early parade and then the fireworks you could still work your way over to your mountain of choice and ride it with no line. If you weren't staying for E-night there was still plenty of pixie dust - just an hour less to enjoy it. However, if all you could see fit to do was stand at the gate with your arms folded and say 'I want my hour back' you might not have known it. So, no..........

Yes, I wouldn't complain about an hour. I do think that it was a little uncool that even people who were on property (ie Disney Village) weren't able to to have the e-night as an option if the hotel didn't have Disney® as part of the name. We wanted to stay somewhere nice, so we'd stay at the Buena Vista Palace. It wasn't the sky high cost of a decent room at a premier Disney® hotel, but was certainly a lot nicer than the budget Disney® hotels. What killed me is that the staff at the hotel were cast members (mickey name tag & all) & you could buy tickets to the park in the lobby, but we weren't eligable for EE or E-nights. From what I understand this is the case with most DV hotels. I could see how a lot of people would get upset & find this to be pretty disingenous.

That aside I think 11 is a decent hour (though you might be wondering what happened to midnight), with no great variance in the open hours & not something to gripe that much about.

....at this point there is no flaw in my premise. You lost an hour (from 12 to 11) but got back three completely free and empty hour - just as empty, if not more so, that the 11:00 to midnight hour in the Pre E days. So it was 1/8 of the park - big deal.

Actually it wasn't "free".

Riding rides until 2 am WAS DIFFERENT - and Magical. Riding your fave mountain again and again with no line WAS DIFFERENT - when you did it for THREE HOURS, as opposed to the one hour from 11 to 12 when you could have done it in the past. THAT was the case with E-night when it first began.

I agree that the idea was filled with good intentions, but so's the road to hell.

That is where my E-night good time premise stops. Fast forward another year + and it is down to a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 closing and you are truely only buying back something you had peviously and should have had for the price of regular admission.

Yup, it's a great big reality-slap in the face

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
Anyone in particular you had in mind, Jeff?

LOL. Actually in my ripe old age of 26, I'm finding myself more & more in the good old days syndrome camp & I'm certainly not an Eisner (or Damien as we like to call him ) apologist - I hope you guys already knew that.

Originally posted by manning
Since when do you have to pay for a perk????????

Since the quantity versus quality mindset infested the company.

Hey Landbaron, do you think Eisner is related to P.T. Barnum. He's pretty good at finding suckers.

Well, Barnum did always find new ways to surprise & shock the audience. Eisner does this too, but not in good ways. Just when you think you've seen it all & your opinion of him couldn't get any lower...*zing!*

 

[DisneyKidds]

Jeff - that big D sun has been frying your brain . Picture this, if you will.........

The good lord Baron standing next to his "laser", ready to annihilate WDW, pinky in the corner of his mouth, with a 'mini me' mini Baron (that would be the sun baked guy from big D) right beside. You sound more like our good friend Baron every day (is that enough winkies for you to know I am kidding?)

I appreciate your take on my comments. However, remember the premise of the discussion and my particular position. The question has to do with E-nights, which have to be looked at in relation to what was in place immediately before. So, yes,

Yes, but we can't ask why it was ok then to stay open that late & now they have to close at 6pm?

we can ask why we can't have the 80's back or why they should close at 6 pm and I wouldn't disagree - it just isn't germane to this particular discussion.

That aside I think 11 is a decent hour (though you might be wondering what happened to midnight), with no great variance in the open hours & not something to gripe that much about.

Oh my lord - will the good Baron have a conniption over this! And I disagree as well. However, for us the E-night addition mitigated any impact and gave us something different. If Disney gave us something as good as E-night INITIALLY WAS everytime they took something else away the World would be a far better place.

it wasn't "free".

Hey, and you can read things as literally as the Baron as well . By the winkie I assume you know what I meant. Once you shelled out your dough it was free and easy on the inside, no worries, no lines - Magical.

I agree that the idea was filled with good intentions, but so's the road to hell.

Actually, the more I re-read your post the less I think you qualify as the mini me mini Baron. I think he will throw some caps and exclamation marks your way on this one as well. In that one sentence you find yourself in my camp. It WAS a good thing, and now it sucks.

BTW - we have stayed a the Marriott Courtyard in the Disney Village numerous times. When EE existed we always were able to participate. We did do an E-night when staying there as well. From what I have heard, the ability to participate in the 'on-site' events varied with the different Disney Village hotels.

 

[BRERALEX]

all i know is that with a 6pm cclosing you cant go back to hotel (and im stayin at the poy!!!!!!) when i wake up from my nap theylll be closingn

 

[DisneyKidds]

Alex, I know what you mean. Breaks are a bit tougher logistically now. It is a good thing that Epcot is always open until 9 so you still have a post break nap place to go.

 

[BRERALEX]

does anyone think regular hours will return to normal say 1000 maybe 1100 in the summer (when attendance rises accordingly) ?

because then enight till 1am is the real deal.

because is attenance does rise and they dont extend hours they stink!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I don't feel "Screwed" paying extra for e-ticket night. IF the hours were in writing somewhere, then I could say I agree with you.

Do you realize you sound like a Disney executive (Pre$$ler comes to mind) hanging his hat on a technicality? Now, just to make sure I understand you, you’re saying that if they had ‘written’ that MK hours are until midnight during summer hours, you’d be just as livid as I am about the reductions? Do I have that right? If not, ignore the rest. But if that is what you’re saying, then please read on!

“Technically” you are right. “Legally” I don’t have a leg to stand on (just ask Scoop )!! And if you’re the type of person who sees issues as only black or white, with no shades of gray at all, then I probably won’t make much sense to you. But I see the issue as soooo terribly dark in the gray area that it is really hard to tell it apart from black. I base this on president, tradition and Standard Operating Procedures since the beginning of Disney theme parks.

Not only has Disneyland’s traditional summer hours been midnight, since 1955, but the MK has enjoyed the same hours since it’s inception in 1971. The only exception to the ‘rule’ was in the late ‘70’s when the MK, due to very high attendance, EXTENDED the hours until 1:00 am. (WHAT A CONCEPT!! The parks are crowded so they throw in an extra hour!! For nothing!! Just trying to keep the guests happy!! How unique!! How un-businesslike!! How Disney!!)

Now, just so you understand, you’re right. Technically, I have no backing at all. It is not in writing. In fact, the ‘writing goes against me!! The only thing in writing states that the hour of closing is 6:00pm. But I contend that 47 years at Disneyland and 31 years of traditional closing time of midnight, during the summer, constitutes a far greater bond than anything Disney may have compiled and printed on a piece of paper. Heck, in most states you’re married after 7 years, whether there’s paper on it or not!! Surely operating hours should be treated no less lightly, at least in our collective perception as a guest!! So go ahead and feel screwed!! You have every right to feel that way! You have 47 and 31 years worth of ‘rights’ to feel plenty screwed!!

I am an AP holder, and try and come down 2 - 4 times a yr. so it really doesn't matter all that much if WS opens later than FW.

Ahhhh! So from a personal point of view it doesn’t affect you. I understand that. But tell me, can you also understand how it may affect a great many folk whom, as Jeff pointed out, “only come once every 2-5 years”? And if you can, do you still feel that because it doesn’t affect directly, it’s OK to do? Or should we look at things as objectively as possible and judge the decisions made by Disney management, not as they affect us personally, but how they affect the image of the company and their long-term business success in general?

I guess I would be more upset if Disney was the ONLY company that is cutting some things that we, as long time guests, are used too, but they are not.

Man-oh-man!! I keep asking… WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DISNEY!?!?!?

Look. If that were the thought pattern in the corporate mind of Disney way back in 1955, there’s be no Disneyland!!! There would be a quaint little amusement park in Orange County that was, for the most part, a little better that your average, run-of-the-mill, local amusement park. The place would have been kept one tiny hair above the competition, but no more than that!! Is that what you want for Disney? That they look to see where others have set the bar and match it? Or should they be the ones to set the standards for the industry and let the others figure out how (if even possible) to catch up!!??

On a personal note, bases on the way most people here think about Disney, Jeff sized it up nicely and over time I will steal the ‘uncle’ bit and claim it for myself!! :

Yes, but we've come to expect more from Disney. If the shady guy down the street or even your grocer that you've been going to for years pulls a fast one on you, you just shake your head & either accept it or move on. If your uncle does it (& continually does it), you can't help but feel a deep sense of disappointment & sorrow.

Thanks Jeff!!

Will any of these things keep me away? Nope. I know the bottom line is Disney is a business and needs to answer to the stockholders first

YES!!! YES!!! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!! And they can do that by not forgetting how they built up tremendous loyalty and a brand name synonymous with QUALITY!! If they take care of their primary business “EXCEEDING EXPECTATIONS” the bottom line will follow along quite happily. Unfortunately, greed takes over and the mission gets blurred. And before you know it the company is chasing after the dollar instead of chasing after the guest (who owns that dollar).

But I will choose my battles and if means closing a park a few hours early as opposed to closing a park altogether,

You know, I’ve said it before and I really do mean it. If Disney went away, I mean totally away, no WDW, no films, and Disneyland sold off, torn down and replaced by condos, I would indeed be sad. But there is a fate for Disney that is worse than death, for me at least. It’s that Disney will evolve into a mere shadow of their former selves and become like their competition. A mundane and ordinary amusement park. A Universal or worse a Six Flags type operation. Wouldn’t you agree? Wouldn’t that be worse that no Disney at all? Well, given the current administration, the recent and rapid cutbacks and radical changes in ideology and philosophy they are well on that path as we speak.

 

[raidermatt]

Let's get back to basics...

This is really very simple. Which is better for the guests on a hot July night:

A- MK open until Midnight or 1am.
B- MK closes at 10pm, enight until 1am for $12 per person ($48 for a family of four).

If you are only arguing that B is better than B without an enight, ask yourself who has put you in the position to have to make that choice? Was choice A taken away by law, or by an act of God?

That's really the only point that some are trying to make here. Its not that in July the park should close at 10pm without any enights. Nobody is really arguing that. Its just a question of why do we believe that Choice A is no longer an option? Some are treating that cut in hours as inevitable, as a mistake on Disney's part to ever offer such hours in the first place. Others are saying the longer hours were one of the many things that gained Disney the loyal following that is has. It goes beyone subtracting labor costs and electricity, and adding in enight revenue.

Clearly enights are not striking a chord with very many guests. That's why they are not being held in slower months any longer. Disney is afraid to even promote the things for fear of angering guests! That has to tell you something.

Of course, if you truly do prefer a 10pm-1am enight over a 1am closing time, you're just going to LOVE e-afternoons and e-mornings...

 

[Lanshark]

I love e-nights and we go whenever we can. That being said I remember when the park was open late and you got 2 fireworks shows a night. I don't like paying the extra 12 bucks apiece for 4 of us but with the crowds the way they are it is the only way we can experience the MK at night and enjoy the Mountains without waiting a hour in line.

Is it a ripoff? Yes But so are a lot of things a WDW if you look at it practically. I expect Disney to make decisions with their dollars and I will exercise the same right. If they discontinue e-nights I will no longer stay onsite.

 

[Pinnie]

It appears that the cuts in hours are a direct result of less people coming, either from overseas or from the USA and those that do come don't stay as long and don't spend as much money in the parks as they used too.

What is different NOW than in the mid 80s and 90s when the economy was also suffering a glitch? In those times people still went to Disney to spend their dollars and Disney did better than it is doing now. In real dollars, it is just as "expensive" to go to WDW now as it was then. Disney wasn't as diversified as they are now. In the 70s only ONE park existed.

Now, people are a LOT more cautious on how their hard earned dollar is going to be spent. They are worried about jobs, they don't want to fly after 9/11. One look at their 401ks going down the tube with the rest of the economy/stock market, and they are rethinking how that $ is going to be spent. Most are opting for vacations closer to home.

What do you suggest Disney do? They have to cut costs somewhere and closing an hour or so earlier is one way to reduce expenses. Face it, they are NOT making money on the last hours that park is open, unless it is to sell popcorn and ice cream. Remember, if you are IN the park, you can stay on eticket night and shop, so they still can get that dollar from the consumer.

Yes, I would love to be altruistic and believe that WDW is entirely for the guests, but when I looked today and saw the stock at $14 and some change, you better believe stockholders are upset and without THEM and their support there will be NO WDW!!!!

I'd be willing to entertain other suggestions.....

pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I'd be willing to entertain other suggestions.....

OK. Here's one!!

Face it, they are NOT making money on the last hours that park is open, unless it is to sell popcorn and ice cream.

I totally disagree!! They ARE selling a product! They are selling memories. They are selling Pixie Dust. They are selling MAGIC!!! And we are buying it with loyalty and return trips!! WHY DID IT WORK FOR WALT AND WON”T WORK TODAY!?!?!

There’s so much fan dedication, brand loyalty and company appreciation that the current regime has been living off it for the past 18 years! Can you imagine how much more that could be if they had decided to build on that foundation and nurture that trust rather than exploit it for the easy buck?

 

[raidermatt]

It appears that the cuts in hours are a direct result of less people coming, either from overseas or from the USA and those that do come don't stay as long and don't spend as much money in the parks as they used too.

Records were set at WDW in 2000. As the long-time visitors will tell you, regular Midnight and 1am closings went bye-bye long before the recent recession began.

Now, hours were FURTHER reduced post 9/11, which I was on-board with. It was probably a necessary move. Less people were coming this July than last, so it made sense that there would be a corresponding drop. However, this October's hours are scheduled to be significantly shorter than last October (over 11%), when WDW was described by many as a ghost town. This October won't be see a flood of tourists, but certainly it will be better than last year. Try as I might, I can't think of an explanation for this, other than the drag on earnings that ABC has become.

Face it, they are NOT making money on the last hours that park is open, unless it is to sell popcorn and ice cream.

You are assuming that they are not losing any guests due to shorter hours. If a guest decides to spend one less day at WDW due to the shorter hours, or worse yet, just go somewhere else on vacation, then Disney WAS making money on that customer for those last hours. It just didn't show up on the merchandise or food receipts.

But it WILL show up in the attendance, revenue and earnings numbers...

Yes, I would love to be altruistic and believe that WDW is entirely for the guests, but when I looked today and saw the stock at $14 and some change, you better believe stockholders are upset and without THEM and their support there will be NO WDW!!!!

If you want to look at it that way, then consider that hours have been on the decrease for 4-5 years. So has the stock price. Hours cuts have accelerated this year. So has the decline in the stock price.

Now, its not as simple as that, but surely we can all agree that there comes a time when cuts become detrimental to the bottom line. If you close the parks at Noon, you'd save a lot of labor costs, but nobody would buy tickets. So the key is finding the point between being open 1 hour a day and 24 hours a day that optimizes LONG TERM performance.

If you are saving 2-3 hours worth of labor today, but in the process are losing guests for next year, did you really benefit the stockholders?

WDW seems to be having more difficulty than other parks in getting its attendance levels back up. Part of that can be explained by decreased international tourism, but not all of it. SOMETHING else is wrong. I'm not willing to bet that its not cuts that have already gone too deep. (And yes, I am a stockholder. An irritated one at that...)

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Lets wander down 90's memory lane. It is the Early 90's. The MK is open until midnight in the summer - EVERY NIGHT!!! (caps and exclamation thrown in for Baron - he likes those things

Thank you!!! YES!!!! I love it!!!!

FAst forward to the late 90's and the advent of E-night in response to.........whatever.

Ahhh! And therein lies the problem!! That little, “whatever”. You see, you can’t take that out of the equation. The “whatever” was the fires and the fear that it would keep the tourists away. An unfounded fear as it turned out. So what can we see from this type of thinking? What can we learn about their mind-set from their actions?

Well, as far as I can see, the management at the MK at the time was soooo scared about “the numbers” that, at the smallest indication that attendance might be down, that they decided to cut hours. And being profit motivated (as opposed to guest motivated) saw an opportunity to further increase “the numbers” by instituting e-ticket nights. Now, I don’t know about you, but I have a real problem with this. I don’t see, even remotely, them thinking in terms of guest benefit. I only see a scared manager slashing what didn’t need to be slashed, an opportunist practicing some ‘sharp pencil’ techniques (i.e. e-ticket nights) and the beginning of a slippery slope which led us into believing that the hours, once sacrosanct, are really arbitrary at best and capricious by design!! What do you see?

Been there, done that, doing that.....the ONLY way to do WDW. You guys don't have a corner on the market when it comes to the most effective way to do WDW.

You might have been there. And you might have done that. But there is no way in the world you are doing that!!! It is not possible anymore. You cannot have that break in the middle of the day and return to the MK for any type of productivity whatsoever!!! For one reason only! Shorter hours! With a 10:00 closing there is no more mid-day break.

You see, the shorter hours brings on two sets of insurmountable problems. The first is the obvious – time. You simply run out of it. You come back in the evening and guess what!!?? The evening’s gone!!! The second problem is people. There are just too many people staying until the bitter end. Know why? Cause the ‘bitter’ end ain’t ‘bitter’ no more!! It’s just around the corner from the parade that everyone is forced to watch at the same time cause there’s only one now thank you very much Disney!!!!! And that’s only a couple minutes from the fireworks that everyone hears are worth watching and then… and then… and then… YEAH! That’s right!! There’s NOTHING after “and then”!!!! Too late!! CLOSED!!! Come back tomorrow and we’ll tease and torture you some more!!!

BTW - there were still two, count em two, parades and the fireworks. If you saw the early parade and then the fireworks you could still work your way over to your mountain of choice and ride it with no line. If you weren't staying for E-night there was still plenty of pixie dust - just an hour less to enjoy it.

Ahhhh! Well, not quite. In other words, and it really should surprise anyone, I beg to differ!!!

I don’t know if you ever enjoyed an e-ticket night during the summer, but those crowds you’re talking about NOT being there during the second parade, are not only there, but with a vengeance!! It was never the last two hours that held the magic “no lines”. It was only the hour between 11 and 12. So that “pixie dust” hour you say is still there (between ten and eleven) really isn’t. The lines are still horribly long. So long in fact that for the first half-hour to 45 minutes of the ‘official’ e-ticket night is spent in one line, waiting for the day guest to get their turn. We really enjoy only a little over two hours of no lines. That first hour can be most frustrating.

So I don’t see how the people NOT staying for e-ticket night picks up much of that late night magic at all. In fact, I’d say it was a little anti-magic for some. Not only is it still pretty crowded at the 11:00 hour (ten even worse) but just watch sometime when e-ticket night first starts. You’ll always find a nice looking family heading for the turnstile of a ride only to find that the old wristband hadn’t been in place. It’s their first trip in a little over five years and the next may come five years later if they’re lucky enough to save enough. The teenage kids look pleadingly at mom and dad. Mom and dad look thoroughly defeated. And the entire family, almost on cue, slumps at the shoulders and walks away dejected. What a magical end of the day, eh?

....at this point there is no flaw in my premise.

HA! That’s what you think!!!

You lost an hour (from 12 to 11) but got back three completely free and empty hour - just as empty, if not more so, that the 11:00 to midnight hour in the Pre E days.

OK. Simple math question. How many hours did we lose? I count one hour every day. If you’re there for a week that’s seven hours. Hmmm. We do an e-night in that time period, so add three hours, for a loss of 4 hours per week!! At an extra 84 buck for my family.

You’re right!!! How could I be so blind!! I donate to Disney an extra 84 bucks and the take away four more hours of my precious weeklong stay!! How could I have missed that benefit!! Thanks!!
And wait!! There’s more!!

So it was 1/8 of the park - big deal.

To me it is!!

Perhaps you did Epcot until closing, which back in the day may have been 10

No. While EPCOT didn’t always close at nine, it’s been long enough to be firmly established. So tack on another hour to your next bit!

Without E-night and with a midnight closing you would have had only an hour and a half

So that would be two and a half hours - EVERY NIGHT!!! And when I stay for three weeks, that’s an awful lot of nights!!!!!

That is where my E-night good time premise stops. Fast forward another year + and it is down to a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 closing and you are truely only buying back something you had peviously and should have had for the price of regular admission.

You are right. But that first bit had no thought of the guest in mind. It was testing the waters of the slippery slope we are rushing down today.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Oh, Baron - whatever are we going to do with you..........

I'll play along a little longer - but where to start.............?

Thank you!!! YES!!!! I love it!!!!

You are most certainly welcome my friend .

What can we learn about their mind-set from their actions?

You are right - in general it is not so easy to cavalierly dismiss the 'whatever'. However, for purposes of discussing E-night I believe we have to. Yes, it would be so much better if things were as they were in the early 90's - or better yet, those days you recall when they threw you another hour to 1 am. But that was not the reality surrounding E-night. So for me to say it was good or bad I have to look at the facts - midnight vs. 11 plus a three hour E-night - as they existed, regadless of whether it was a start down the slippery slope. Go back and read the title of your thread - it isn't 'was E-night the start down a slippery slope'.

I don’t see, even remotely, them thinking in terms of guest benefit. I only see a scared manager slashing what didn’t need to be slashed, an opportunist practicing some ‘sharp pencil’ techniques (i.e. e-ticket nights) and the beginning of a slippery slope which led us into believing that the hours, once sacrosanct, are really arbitrary at best and capricious by design!! What do you see?

Whether they were thinking in terms of guest benefit or not, they did provide some benefit - something different and exciting - for the guest, in the beginning at least. Again, the slippery slope is not what I have been discussing. I am trying not to go there because you are most likely right but I'm sure we'd end up disagreeing in a number of ways.

You might have been there. And you might have done that. But there is no way in the world you are doing that!!! It is not possible anymore. You cannot have that break in the middle of the day and return to the MK for any type of productivity whatsoever!!! For one reason only! Shorter hours! With a 10:00 closing there is no more mid-day break.

Not true my friend. Unfortunately you no longer have the flexibility of EVERY SINGLE NIGHT OF THE WEEK!!! - but it can still be done. I must qualify that for the last couple of years (since it has gotten really bad) we have been offseason visitors. You, my friend, appear to lack flexibility. I know, I know - WHY SHOULD BARON HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE!!!??? Maybe you shouldn't have to be, but that is reality - deal with it . Even with the sucky hours we still find the MK open until 11 a night or two while we are there, or we do MNSSHP, or MVMCP - all that means we don't need the MK to have regular hours until 11 or 12 to make it worth going back after a break. I'm sorry you can't avail yourself of the same options. Furthermore - even a 10 close or Epcot 9 close gives us adequate post break time in the parks. Face it - when you have been as often as we have you don't need as many hours in the park. Actually, we spend more and more time away from the parks the more we go to WDW - and it is just as Magic - new and wonderful magic we have been missing for years. The Magic doesn't just hover over the parks you know. Also - with a 3 and 1 yo we don't really make any use of hours past 11 or 12 anyway. Yes, that is all personal and does nothing for the Baron clan - but we aren't suffering too much for all the sucky hours. Now that doesn't mean I happily accept them - but we go on.\

I don’t know if you ever enjoyed an e-ticket night during the summer, but those crowds you’re talking about NOT being there during the second parade, are not only there, but with a vengeance!! It was never the last two hours that held the magic “no lines”. It was only the hour between 11 and 12. So that “pixie dust” hour you say is still there (between ten and eleven) really isn’t.

No, not now - as I pointed out, it has been a couple years since we endured the pleasure and pain of the summer visit. Regardless, back when E-night first started that 10 to 11 hour was not very bad at all. Granted, not as good as the 11 to 12 - but not bad. Remember - I have been talking about the 'then' and not the 'now'. Now it sucks.

HA! That’s what you think!!!

HA! That’s what you think!!!

OK. Simple math question. How many hours did we lose? I count one hour every day. If you’re there for a week that’s seven hours. Hmmm. We do an e-night in that time period, so add three hours, for a loss of 4 hours per week!!

This logic only applies if you actually would have been at the MK each and every night. Everyone but the Baron clan apparently will find themselves somewhere besides the MK at least a couple of nights. So I ask - are those real hours lost or just 'paper hours'. Decrying the loss of 'paper hours' doesn't really help you make your point.

No. While EPCOT didn’t always close at nine, it’s been long enough to be firmly established. So tack on another hour to your next bit!

No. Do not forget - I am talking about the 'then' I have in no way said or implied that the points I am making apply to the 'now'. That is why I chose the 'combination' option in the poll. Things were good then - they are not so good now. If I wanted to discuss the now I'd tack on an hour - but I'm not going into that bit. You appear to want to take my arguments about the 'then' and apply them to the 'now' to show just how much the 'now' sucks. Bad taste my good Baron - and unnecessary as I agree the now sucks.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Oh, Baron - whatever are we going to do with you

Install me as CEO of Disney. And I’ll promise to never post again!!!

Yes, it would be so much better if things were as they were in the early 90's - or better yet, those days you recall when they threw you another hour to 1 am.

You mean during those wonderful gas crisis and recession days (years) of the late 70’s and early 80’s? When instead of cutting, Disney “attracted” guests with longer hours and remembered that while they did indeed sell plush toys (yes even then), hot dogs, film and even cigarettes, their most important product was MAGIC. And that included selling the Magic that no cash register could register. They sold brand loyalty and repeat business that would last to the turn of the century. And Ei$ner proved that!! He’s been exploiting it ever since he took over!!

Go back and read the title of your thread

I really hate to be picky, but it ain’t my thread. And besides. You should know me well enough by now. Thread titles mean very little to me!!!

Whether they were thinking in terms of guest benefit or not, they did provide some benefit - something different and exciting - for the guest, in the beginning at least

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!! And you know, my friend, we’re leaving out a great many people in this scenario. Not only is the so called “benefit” not used by a great many people to whom they are offered (only 5,000 remember), I would speculate that a far greater number are flatly refused!!! My good friend DisDuck isn’t even offered the opportunity to say it’s a rip-off! How is that a benefit!?!?! So they cut the hours for EVERYONE, and offered this “something different and exciting” to a select few! (Hmmm. Do I see a caste system for E-ticket nights in the making. It is something I hadn’t considered before!!)

WHY SHOULD BARON HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE

You don’t seem to understand, I CRAVE FLEXIBILITY!!! I WANT OPTIONS!!! But they have to be MY options. It has to fit within MY flexibility. (And by that I mean everyone’s) But Disney is refusing me the pleasure of choice. They are DICTATING when and where. And then to add the old insult to injury, they are charging me for the privilege!

Even with the sucky hours we still find the MK open until 11 a night or two while we are there

Out of everything you have written, this stung the worst. I just spent a little over three weeks there. Do you have any idea how many times the MK was opened until 11:00. Once! The day EPCOT closed. And if it were not for that there would have been ZERO!!! And you go in the off season!!! Do you realize how that just boils my blood?!?!?! I go in the hot humid CROWDED days of summer and YOU get my late nights in the off season!!!! AND I GET NONE!!!!!!

This logic only applies if you actually would have been at the MK each and every night.

WE ARE!!!! No matter where you are at the end of the night we ALWAYS wind up in the MK!!! Why? BECAUSE WE COULD!!! Because the studios would end their night at 10 or ten-thirty and we’d hop over to MK. Because AK hours are a joke, so it’s over to the MK. And even the Kidds clan admit to making the mad dash after illuminations!! So yeah!! Virtually EVERY night is ended in the MK. But that still doesn’t matter. What about all those guests that cannot or will not participate? Where’s their MAGIC?

No. Do not forget - I am talking about the 'then' I have in no way said or implied that the points I am making apply to the 'now'.

I totally understand. Evidently you did not, so I’ll type read slow!!!

You said, while describing the mad dash from EPCOT:
“Without E-night and with a midnight closing you would have had only an hour and a half”

Now, earlier you said that EPOCT might have closed at ten. I corrected you, and seeing that you claimed only an hour and a half assumed you chose the ten o’clock closing for EPCOT. I corrected this by pointing out that EPCOT “traditionally” closes at nine. And I added an hour for it. Which is true. Illuminations at nine to nine fifteen. The race begins and by 9:30 or 9:45 at the latest you’re entering the MK. Until midnight!! Ahhhhh! The pixie dust!!! For all!! Not just the select few of the new caste system!!!

Bad taste my good Baron - and unnecessary as I agree the now sucks.

Just making sure you’re staying fair. And you weren’t!!!

 

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Jeff - that big D sun has been frying your brain . Picture this, if you will.........

The good lord Baron standing next to his "laser", ready to annihilate WDW, pinky in the corner of his mouth, with a 'mini me' mini Baron (that would be the sun baked guy from big D) right beside. You sound more like our good friend Baron every day (is that enough winkies for you to know I am kidding?)

Well, I suppose there's worse things to be

Actually, the more I re-read your post the less I think you qualify as the mini me mini Baron. I think he will throw some caps and exclamation marks your way on this one as well. In that one sentence you find yourself in my camp. It WAS a good thing, and now it sucks.

I find that having something in bold is much more eye catching, but I suppose it's a matter of preference.

BTW - we have stayed a the Marriott Courtyard in the Disney Village numerous times. When EE existed we always were able to participate. We did do an E-night when staying there as well. From what I have heard, the ability to participate in the 'on-site' events varied with the different Disney Village hotels.

Unfortunately the Buena Vista Palace doesn't offer this option, but even if I was able to I wouldn't help perpetuate the current trend.

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
Not only has Disneyland’s traditional summer hours been midnight, since 1955, but the MK has enjoyed the same hours since it’s inception in 1971. The only exception to the ‘rule’ was in the late ‘70’s when the MK, due to very high attendance, EXTENDED the hours until 1:00 am. (WHAT A CONCEPT!! The parks are crowded so they throw in an extra hour!! For nothing!! Just trying to keep the guests happy!! How unique!! How un-businesslike!! How Disney!!)

Yeah, but Six Flags doesn't do it, so...

Now, just so you understand, you’re right. Technically, I have no backing at all. It is not in writing. In fact, the ‘writing goes against me!! The only thing in writing states that the hour of closing is 6:00pm. But I contend that 47 years at Disneyland and 31 years of traditional closing time of midnight, during the summer, constitutes a far greater bond than anything Disney may have compiled and printed on a piece of paper. Heck, in most states you’re married after 7 years, whether there’s paper on it or not!! Surely operating hours should be treated no less lightly, at least in our collective perception as a guest!! So go ahead and feel screwed!! You have every right to feel that way! You have 47 and 31 years worth of ‘rights’ to feel plenty screwed!!

Not only that, but Eisner didn't even buy me dinner first.
Seriously though I agree. You can spin the apple anyway you want to get a pretty view, it's still not going to change the fact that the core is rotting.

Look. If that were the thought pattern in the corporate mind of Disney way back in 1955, there’s be no Disneyland!!! There would be a quaint little amusement park in Orange County that was, for the most part, a little better that your average, run-of-the-mill, local amusement park. The place would have been kept one tiny hair above the competition, but no more than that!! Is that what you want for Disney? That they look to see where others have set the bar and match it? Or should they be the ones to set the standards for the industry and let the others figure out how (if even possible) to catch up!!??

Forget that, we'd have never even got to that point. There wouldn't have been sound in cartoons & Snow White & Seven Dwarfs wouldn't have been made.

On a personal note, bases on the way most people here think about Disney, Jeff sized it up nicely and over time I will steal the ‘uncle’ bit and claim it for myself!!

Fine by me as long as you realize I get royalties.

YES!!! YES!!! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!! And they can do that by not forgetting how they built up tremendous loyalty and a brand name synonymous with QUALITY!! If they take care of their primary business “EXCEEDING EXPECTATIONS” the bottom line will follow along quite happily. Unfortunately, greed takes over and the mission gets blurred. And before you know it the company is chasing after the dollar instead of chasing after the guest (who owns that dollar).

I agree & here's an analogy:
Let's say you have a favorite sports player, you've followed most of his career & the guy is amazing. He's done things you didn't think were possible & is always delivering a show. When you think you've figured the guy out, he pulls another trick out that leaves your jaw on the floor. Now the player is older - would you rather that player leave in their prime & on top? Or would you rather suffer through seasons of a player who can't let go, watching painfully as his ability is mediocre at best, a mere shadow of what he once was?

If the company isn't going to strive to be the best, but rather "just good enough" why do they even bother? They might as well be making tires with that mindset.

Originally posted by raidermatt
Let's get back to basics...

This is really very simple. Which is better for the guests on a hot July night:

A- MK open until Midnight or 1am.
B- MK closes at 10pm, enight until 1am for $12 per person ($48 for a family of four).

Is this a trick question? If not I think it's a no brainer that it's A.

That's really the only point that some are trying to make here. Its not that in July the park should close at 10pm without any enights. Nobody is really arguing that. Its just a question of why do we believe that Choice A is no longer an option? Some are treating that cut in hours as inevitable, as a mistake on Disney's part to ever offer such hours in the first place. Others are saying the longer hours were one of the many things that gained Disney the loyal following that is has. It goes beyone subtracting labor costs and electricity, and adding in enight revenue.

I agree.

Clearly enights are not striking a chord with very many guests. That's why they are not being held in slower months any longer. Disney is afraid to even promote the things for fear of angering guests! That has to tell you something.

Yup. Even things that are slightly controverial like Fast Pass get all the fan fair they can muster. I think Disney knows they're the bad dog on this point & the tail is tucked between the legs.

Of course, if you truly do prefer a 10pm-1am enight over a 1am closing time, you're just going to LOVE e-afternoons and e-mornings...

No joke.

Originally posted by Lanshark
I love e-nights and we go whenever we can. That being said I remember when the park was open late and you got 2 fireworks shows a night. I don't like paying the extra 12 bucks apiece for 4 of us but with the crowds the way they are it is the only way we can experience the MK at night and enjoy the Mountains without waiting a hour in line.

I remember when you could do that without having to drop the extra bones to do so.


I'll post more later, but I need to hit the sack!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Jeff (in Big D) - LOL - mini me - that is too funny, thanks for the laugh and the good sense of humor. Bravo!

Jeff (yeah you, Baron)........

Let me rub some salt in there..... Memorial Day weekend THIS YEAR - MK open untill 11 on Saturday - I think Friday, too - I can't recall just now. Sorry for that. If you were there for three weeks and just got one 11 closing due to the Epcot closure I feel for you. I know things are bad now, apparently worse than I knew. I have not even bothered to pay attention to this summers hours as we don't do the summer thing any longer.

Let me say this to you - I am a selfish SOB . 'I like', me, me, me, subjective measures, perceived, not created, Magic and value . OK - the freezer can open and I can be told we can't have a conversation.

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!! And you know, my friend, we’re leaving out a great many people in this scenario. Not only is the so called “benefit” not used by a great many people to whom they are offered (only 5,000 remember), I would speculate that a far greater number are flatly refused!!! My good friend DisDuck isn’t even offered the opportunity to say it’s a rip-off! How is that a benefit!?!?! So they cut the hours for EVERYONE, and offered this “something different and exciting” to a select few! (Hmmm. Do I see a caste system for E-ticket nights in the making. It is something I hadn’t considered before!!)

Fact of the matter, they did provide some benefit for ME. At least flip me a break and admit - riding rides until 2 am is something you could rarely have done before (outside of possibly New Years or Easter). That was new, that was different, that was a good thing - even if it was in response to a bad thing. Hey, if you weren't staying on property - too bad for you. If you didn't want to part with your ten bucks - your choice, but why deprive yourself of the benefit over 10 bucks when you already invested a fortune. I KNOW, I KNOW!!!! (again - caps and ex for Baron even though Big D is right about the bold ) - why should it matter where you stayed, why should you have to choose to plunk down the ten bucks, why should anyone be in that position? I agree, the mere fact that those questions had to be asked was a bad thing. However, Disney provided THIS GUEST a solution that turned that bad thing to good.

I really hate to be picky, but it ain’t my thread.

Ahhh... you guys are all the same (says DK bracing for another blast of cold air). In all fairness, TT isn't in your car YET, but his thread was inspired by yourself .

You don’t seem to understand, I CRAVE FLEXIBILITY!!! I WANT OPTIONS!!! But they have to be MY options. It has to fit within MY flexibility. (And by that I mean everyone’s) But Disney is refusing me the pleasure of choice. They are DICTATING when and where. And then to add the old insult to injury, they are charging me for the privilege!

I guess some people are just better at rolling with the punches. When life gives you lemons........ I make the lemonaide, others get a sour puss . Now before you bring out the big A word and say that Ei$ner wishes there were more of me around - I agree that we have been punched and I do my share of sparring, I do tell them I don't want to drink lemonaide. However, the knockout punch has yet to be delivered - even for yourself my friend.

WE ARE!!!! No matter where you are at the end of the night we ALWAYS wind up in the MK!!!

I submit that you are in the minority Mr. Baron. But yes, Disney should strive to keep everyone happy. However, I am still in selfish mode.

Now, earlier you said that EPOCT might have closed at ten. I corrected you,

Now Baron - are you saying that in summers past that Epcot never closed later than 9........ OK, that is why you said "traditionally" - but it didn't take a fire or a holiday to see a 9:30 or 10 close. Now perhaps it is you that has to 'read slow' as you like to say. I was talking about options and flexibility for E-nights and the ability to do them after another park closed. E-night didn't have to just be an extension of your day in the MK, it could provide you with a complete change of Magic scenery after you got the full Magic treatment elsewhere - and that was different, and cool. I was pointing out that you could do a heck of a lot more at the MK after Epcot with E-night than without. That holds true whether it was a 9, 9:30, or 10 close at Epcot. What I was trying to point out remains the same whether you had 1.5 or 2.5 hours in the MK without E-night, and that is you can't do the whole park anyway - so what does it matter that the whole park isn't open for E-night. From a practical standpoint it doesn't make a lick of difference. If you only care to point out what wasn't available to you as opposed to enjoying more than you could enjoy in three hours that is your choice. Do I need to go back and type that slower? I don't throw around things like EVERY NIGHT!!! - sorry if it seemed implied. But for the point I was making (the one in bold) it doesn't really matter.

Just making sure you’re staying fair. And you weren’t!!!

But I was.... you just failed to take the main point away from ramblings on that one. Perhaps it was my lack of clarity, or perhaps it wasn't a point you wanted to see. You tell me .

Looks like that job opening might be there soon. I'll look for further threads from you regarding the many caste systems at WDW .

 

[raidermatt]

You, my friend, appear to lack flexibility. I know, I know - WHY SHOULD BARON HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE!!!??? Maybe you shouldn't have to be, but that is reality - deal with it

I know this wasn't meant personally, but looking at this from a "what's good for business point of view" remember that Summer is the busiest prolonged period of the year. Why? Because that's when WDW's bread and butter, families with children, are able to take vacations.

Generally speaking, its wise to keep your best and most plentiful customers happy.


Enights were a bad idea from the get-go, and its only gotten worse. Disney knew it better than anyone, that's why they never told anyone about enights. They would RATHER CANCEL THEM THAN PROMOTE THEM!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by raidermatt

I know this wasn't meant personally, but looking at this from a "what's good for business point of view" remember that Summer is the busiest prolonged period of the year. Why? Because that's when WDW's bread and butter, families with children, are able to take vacations.

Generally speaking, its wise to keep your best and most plentiful customers happy.


Enights were a bad idea from the get-go, and its only gotten worse. Disney knew it better than anyone, that's why they never told anyone about enights. They would RATHER CANCEL THEM THAN PROMOTE THEM!

You are right Matt - nothing personal against our good friend Baron. He and I have to go round on something though, and you know I think he is somewhat stuck in the past .

That being said - do all the discussions have to evolve into what is good from the business point of view? I agree with you about summers and keeping the bread and butter happy. I happen to agree with you that E-nights represent something that is not good for the business at this point. However, that doesn't change to fact that when they first started they were more than a replacement for something that we should have had in the first place - and that was the question at hand. I believe it gave us something different and was a good thing at first. It has evolved into something else, yes - but from a get out and experience the MK point of view I don't believe it was a bad thing at all - then. From a business perspective was it a bad thing and a start down the slippery slope? Well, that would be another thread - or at least a completely different aspect of this thread than I have been discussing . Silly me to focus on the actual question posed in the thread .

BTW - I'm not sure I buy your E-night conspiracy theory that Disney knows they were bad from the get-go and they are trying to hide it from the public. Do you have something more than speculation on that one?

 

[airlarry!]

As I am wont to do, I agree with Matt on this one. If Disney were making a killing, and it wasn't teeing off the average guest, they would have promoted the heck out of E*nights. Heck, I can remember some times barely even seeing info about it, except a little ad card on the resort desk...

That is a good question that no one has answered. What was Disney's rationale for starting E*nights?

I wonder if there isn't a poster here who may have filled up a few water glasses when those discussions were happening...clue us in....

 

[DisneyKidds]

A first for me. I will attempt to argue two entirely different concepts regarding the same subject in the same thread. God help me keep my thoughts straight . Baron and Matt want to discuss the 'good for business' aspect of E-nights while I have been dsicussing the 'good for me experiencing the MK' aspect of E-night. I really don't want to mix the two ideas - a sure recipe for disaster . For those who care to play - please respond to one of my posts at a time, lest my head will explode .

So, are E-nights good for business? Were they ever good for business? Were they a start down the slippery slope to the ruin of the MK? Where to begin................

I think that if E-nights gave the same thing as they did when they first started they could have been a very good thing for business. As such - I think they were actually good thing for business at one point.

Here is what I mean. Initially, E-nights gave us something different - the point I have been making in my posts on the other argument. Being in the MK riding rides until 2 am was different. People bought into the idea and were willing to pay for E-nights with the full knowledge that a regular hour was being taken away. Why? Because you got something unique and different. The ability to ride your favorite rides (granted, maybe they weren't all of everyones faves) again and again and again for three hours, with no lines whatsoever. The ability to be in the MK at 2 am (later by the time you got out) which was cool - and something you could rarely do before. Most people were happy to do it and saw E-nights as a good benefit.

News flash - providing something new, unique, different and cutting edge that provides your customer something they never really had before is ALWAYS good for business. The incremental cost of keeping the staff there and the E-night attractions open was minimal. 5,000 tix at 10 bucks a pop turned a profit. In most customers it created goodwill and added to the Magic. In some customers it served to make up for the elimination of an hour they should have had. But that created goodwill also - because most saw it as getting more than they lost. Again - all good for business.

Sure, some will say Disneys initial motivation was always to screw the customer. Not sure I buy that. Even with questionable motives, the actual E-night event could be good for business. Of course, you would be correct in pointing out that the questionable motives were not good for business - but we'll talk slippery slope in a few moments.

If only it could have stayed the way it was (oh, great, now I sound like the Baron ). So what happened? I don't exactly know. Was it greed? Was it assuming the customer would view E-nights as the same positive as the MK hours eroded and E-nights found you there only as late as most used to be there without E-night, giving you nothing unique and different? Bottom line is - at some point E-nights failed to provide something new, unique, and different. You had people paying for E-night and leaving the MK earlier than they used to without. People were forced to pay extra to get something that was not unique or different. It could then be viewed as a negative - a high cost replacement for the usual late hours we used to have. Add in the greed factor when Disney realized they could see twice as many tickets and triple the profits and it all went to heck.

That is what we have now and it is bad business. People aren't happy to plunk down their 12 bucks. They do it begrudgingly in the hopes that they can make the best of a bad situation. That is ALWAYS bad business.

So how did we get from point A to point B? I guess that would be the slippery slope. How slippery? I don't really know. If Disney never thought about the guest in the first place in regards to E-night I guess it was a very slippery slope. If it was viewed as a screw the people and make a profit venture it would be very easy to say lets take more profit. If Disney truely thought about the guest when implementing E-night the slope may not have been so steep. However, once Disney lost their sense of values on the subject things started rolling down that hill.

So, are E-nights really bad for business - would WDW have been better off without E-nights? All in all, I think no, the company would not have been better off without them. Face it, the hours today would be the hours today even if E-night never existed. People would feel the same animosity towards Disney either way. E-nights have kept some people happy, provide first time guests who don't have a clue about midnight closings something they never would have had, and have provided a revenue stream that is better than nothing. So, slippery slope and all, WDW is better off with the E-night event[/B} than without. However, that doesn't erase the fact that Disney has made many bad for business decisions along the way.