E-Ticket Nights- Just a Replacement for Late Hours or a Real Deal

[DisneyKidds]

I'll keep banging my 'in the early E-days' drum....

In other words, my first experience there with it was hours from 11-1 a.m....or roughly what would have been open anyway but sans second parade, 75% of attractions, and all but a handful of shops and eateries.

No - couldn't be. E-nights have always been 3 hours. So you'd have E-hours from 11 - 2. At that time, 'regular hours' (the 'had been' hours) were till midnight - regardless of what the good Lord Baron says. So you didn't get the hours you'd have had anyway. Furthermore, when MK was open till 11 they ALWAYS had 2 parades. Yeah - you got less attractions, the E ticket rides - E-night, get it? A handful of shops and eateries - ok. However, E-nights are pretty much for die hards - most of whom are looking for the E-ticket rides. No big eateries, but who's going to chow down at 1 am? Most die hards weren't at E-night to shop either. Some are so willing to paint a tainted negative picture. Sure, maybe if portrayed accurately was still a negative for some - but at least portray it accurately.

I do agree, E-night represented one step back and two steps forward (and a little scratch out of pocket). But in the beginning it was a good value, IMHO. Now it is a rip off.

 

[YoHo]

If I recall correctly, Landbaron's original comments about park hours were that they were always open til midnight, but they NEVER EVER actually made you leave till 1-2 AM. So in effect it was an E-Night that you didn't have to pay for.

 

[BRERALEX]

Disneykidds how many times have youve been to disneyworld? had to rephrase that cause it comes off bad when all i am is curious. I mean if everyone had been there when the park was open till midnight soemtiems 1am an now we have to pay for that "privelege" everyone would be upset

I dont think its just diehards that go for enight. i think a big percentage arent die hards. and lets define enight as not really EXCITING rides. haunted mansion, timekeeper, POTC, country bears, wedway people mover (cant remember the current name) arent big e ticket rides anyways.

youve never seen people eating at 1200am in the parks killing some emu legs and munchin on hot dogs?

I primarily go to the magic kingdom not for the rides but just to be there.

And we are bing short changed by the cleverly marketted enight when its marketted at all.

 

[raidermatt]

But in the beginning it was a good value, IMHO. Now it is a rip off.

I guess if they had only stayed a little bit greedy...

You know, its very possible that the plan all along was to test guest reaction and gradually make enights as early as possible without angering too many guests... (Hence the lack of publicity for enights, even today, as well as the continuing shortening of hours beyond even post 9/11 levels)

I was watching Wall Street last night, and a quote comes to mind...

"You can't get a little pregnant."

 

[DisneyKidds]

As the good Baron posted......

I, too, remember a time when we stayed in the MK until two, EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK!! Two, that’s right count ‘em, TWO parades every night!! The MK closed at one o’clock in the morning!!! Main Street, the ENTIRE Main Street, stayed opened until 2:00!!!

There was a day when the MK was open until 1 - rides and all, with Main Street open until 2. It just wasn't in the same decade as E-nights.

Alex - that would be about 18 times in 11 years, dating back to 1991. Probably 21 or so if you count when I was a kid. I knew someone would say 'it isn't just E-ticket rides'. Your're right, but those are the main attraction of E-night from a ride perspective. HM and POTC are definitely E-ticket rides, remember that E-ticket does mean something. Whether you find them exciting is another story. Also - I don't believe E-nights were targeted to those who weren't interested in rides. Agreed - if you didn't want to do rides the loss of an hour was big and E-night did nothing to compensate in any way.

I still maintain that you have to be somewhat die hard - not a die hard ride fan, but a die hard WDW fan - to sit bleary eyed on Splash Mountain at 1:45 in the am or walk bleary eyed down Main Street at that hour. As Matt pointed out - E-nights are not heavily promoted. It was the more knowlegeable Disney fan that likely was aware. Now E-nights are not for die hards because you have to go just to have reasonable hours. Remember, I am talking about the early days of the 'E-night'.

Yes, someone will eat a hotdog or one of those disgusting turkey legs at midnight - and I believe you could still get them. But was/is there a need for all the restaurants to be open. I highly doubt anyone was going to go to the buffet at the Crystal Palace at midnight. Furthermore, in the early days of the E-night the number of guests at E-night was significantly less than the regular daily attendance. Of course not all the eateries would be open as there weren't nearly enough people to eat all that food during E-hours.

You know, its very possible that the plan all along was to test guest reaction and gradually make enights as early as possible without angering too many guests... (Hence the lack of publicity for enights, even today, as well as the continuing shortening of hours beyond even post 9/11 levels)

Possible. It is also possible that they made what they felt was a necessary business decision that did provide something of value to some guests - and the real greed kicked in later.

 

[BRERALEX]

I still maintain that you have to be somewhat die hard - not a die hard ride fan, but a die hard WDW fan - to sit bleary eyed on Splash Mountain at 1:45 in the am or walk bleary eyed down Main Street at that hour.

oh ok i thought you meant like die hard e ticket fans in general cause then thats why i was arguing enight wouldnt be that great for a person lookin for three hours of crazy crap your pants excitement.

bleary eyed and destroyed feet. thank god when they used to really plan things they planned mk so when you walk out your walkin down hill phew.

and they added two enights to the last week of august if anyone is goin then which i hapen to be so im happy

 

[raidermatt]

It is also possible that they made what they felt was a necessary business decision that did provide something of value to some guests - and the real greed kicked in later.

Only problem with that is if it was done because it was necessary, it would have been reversed when the need disappeared. In this case, that means when the fires dissipated.

So under your scenario, greed as the sole reason must have kicked in pretty quick...

 

[DisneyKidds]

So under your scenario, greed as the sole reason must have kicked in pretty quick...

Agreed . I really didn't know that info about the fires being a factor in the hours/E-night equation. But if the fires were a factor it kind of means greed perhaps wasn't? Once they figured they could cut more, charge more and let more people in, which probably happened pretty quick, the greed took over.

I get the feeling I'm being led into agreeing that greed became and is a primary motivating factor - a position I haven't always entirely agreed with. So lets talk about 'greed'. I don't want to get caught with my pants down and be called inconsistent in my opinions. The bottom line has become and is a major factor. Increase the bottom line, make more return on investment, greed, whatever you want to call it - I still don't think WDW has a bunch of Scrooge McDucks sitting up in Cinderellas castle counting the hoards of money they are stealing from the pathetic, unsuspecting, or apologist guests. Management is trying to survive. Yes, they have made mistakes, and that requires them to work harder to survive, and that can lead to more mistakes, and so on. Business can be a bit** and if what Scoop is hinting at is true, current management will not survive.

 

[YoHo]

Actually Open til middnight was very very regular in the Early to mid 90s. Again, Landbaron also remarked in the past how even in the 90s, Disney would remain open well past the stated hour of closing. now they rush you out with street sweeper so that only the priveleged with thicker pocket books can take advantage.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Actually Open til middnight was very very regular in the Early to mid 90s.

Yes, as I pointed out several times. So when they closed at 11 on E-nights they only took away one hour - granted, that was a significant hour. But to say that when they instituted E-nights they took away two or three hours..... that is overstating to make a point.

Landbaron also remarked in the past how even in the 90s, Disney would remain open well past the stated hour of closing. now they rush you out with street sweeper so that only the priveleged with thicker pocket books can take advantage.

Actually, no. I have no need to rely on what the good Baron says in this regard. I know the Baron really dislikes those d*** sweepers - but they don't sweep you out, especially on E-nights. You may need the thicker pocket book to ride the rides, but it isn't necessary to linger past closing. On our May trip THIS YEAR we were walking AND shopping AND eating on Main Street 45 minutes after park 'closing'. Disney has and does let you linger. They have never kept the rides open past the stated closing time - unless they did so in the 80's. Now, on E-nights, it is probably easier to linger on Main Street without a wristband because the park is still 'open'. I don't believe they check wristbands on Main Street - at least they didn't when E-nights first started, or at least the E-nights we went to. Perhaps that has changed, but I doubt it. Heck, when we went to MVMCP last year there were tons of people in the park DURING the party without a ticket/wristband. I sincerely doubt they police a $12 E-night any more stricktly.

 

[airlarry!]

Did I type 11-1? Sorry 'bout that, DK. Typo. I had originally typed in my earlier message the correct time: 10-1.

It was 10p to 1a. Three hours. Two of which, you must admit, we had previously gotten for free. I was there at the end of the nineties, and the MK was staying open till 12 p. The premise sold to me back then was NOT additional hours--it was the idea that we were kicking the other people out to enjoy the park for ourselves. Selfish? Yes. I could ride all the little rides, enjoy the sights and sounds, and tell the kids "We'll get to Splash tonight when the lines are short."

That's why I never had a problem with it back then. It wasn't that I was paying for hours I already had, it was that I was getting the park to myself. And it was a hidden benefit to staying on-site.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Gotcha Larry - I didn't have a problem with it 'back then' either . The poll option of 'combination' has significance because the value of E-night has changed over the years.

 

[YoHo]

In the Early 90s, the rides remained open after closing. not as long as in the 80s, but they did remain open.

 

[raidermatt]

The bottom line has become and is a major factor. Increase the bottom line, make more return on investment, greed, whatever you want to call it...

Yes, it is clearly the major determining factor. And I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself.

Management is trying to survive. Yes, they have made mistakes, and that requires them to work harder to survive, and that can lead to more mistakes, and so on.

In all seriousness, the problem isn't hard work, either too much or too little. The problem is mgmt's apparent basic mis-understanding of what drives their bottom line over the LONG term, and with respect to the parks, possibly even over the short term. All the hard work in the world won't fix that.

A lot of this gets back to Scoop's pointing out the difference between a goods and service mentality.

If Disney produced widgets, and demand was down, they simply cut production. The people who are still buying the widgets don't care, because they still get their widget, and its the same as before.

But Disney's parks do not produce a tangible product. It's a service. And when you cut some services because demand is down, the guests who still are at your parks DO feel it. You have now diminished the value of your product to everyone.

I'm not talking about short term fixes to extraordinary short term problems, like wildfires, or the aftermath of 9/11. The vast majority of guests can accept TEMPORARY changes due to these issues. But when the tide turns, when what you touted as a reason for your cuts diminishes, you can't keep your cuts and expect nobody to notice. It appears that's what happened with enights, though it did take them several years for the process to evolve into today's world, where hours are 2-3 hours shorter, as opposed to the 1 initially.

What's even more disturbing is the reaction to the soft numbers in this past quarter. Times are not good right now, but certainly October of this yeaar is going to be better for Disney atttendance than October last year.

Guests accepted why hours were slashed late last year. Will they accepte why they are slashed even further this year?

This seems to be the same pattern as enights, only accelerated.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

There was a day when the MK was open until 1 - rides and all, with Main Street open until 2. It just wasn't in the same decade as E-nights.

There was no need for “special”, separately purchased night to plan for (or around), my friend. Every night was an e-ticket night!!! We used to do Space and Thunder Mountains (with a stop at HM inbetween) with no lines whatsoever, within the last hour or so! More than enough if you visited the MK a couple times within your week’s stay. And you had the option to do it anytime you wanted!! Tuesday and Friday didn’t work for you? NO PROBLEM!!! Just drop by on a Sunday, see two parades, a fireworks show and enjoy the Magic of an e-ticket night (although not named that) all included in the price of your admission!! Ahhhh! And the PIXIE DUST filled the night air!!

Yes, as I pointed out several times. So when they closed at 11 on E-nights they only took away one hour - granted, that was a significant hour. But to say that when they instituted E-nights they took away two or three hours..... that is overstating to make a point.

Read the above once again and see if maybe, just maybe it starts making a little sense to you!

 

[DisneyKidds]

In all seriousness, the problem isn't hard work, either too much or too little. The problem is mgmt's apparent basic mis-understanding of what drives their bottom line over the LONG term, and with respect to the parks, possibly even over the short term.

True enough - something I have come to realize since 'you all' corrupted me. However, while I can see that management may not always get it there are times they do and, as evidenced by the 'can they exceed thread', there is an abundance of Magic to be had. Maybe you have to look in new places - but it is there. I still can't believe in all this time that the Baron JUST saw Beauty & the Beast!

Read the above once again and see if maybe, just maybe it starts making a little sense to you!

No need to read it again. I hear you and understand what you are saying. However, when E-nights first started the reduction of hours by one was marginal compared to the benefits we received. E-night had us in the park later than any other previous day in the 90's - with that same pixie dust filled air. Then it all went to crap and now with E-night you still aren't in the park as late as you were when the new millenium arrived.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

A lot of this gets back to Scoop's pointing out the difference between a goods and service mentality.

Now I don’t want to pick at some nits, but… If you recall AV and JeffJewell (man whatever happened to him? I really like his style) have been pointing out that difference for over a year now.

I still can't believe in all this time that the Baron JUST saw Beauty & the Beast!

What can I tell you. I have an affinity for robots and usually dispise the live shows at Disney. This was definitely an anomaly for me!!!

E-night had us in the park later than any other previous day in the 90's - with that same pixie dust filled air.

NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME PIXIE DUST!!! Mr. Kidds, you are perhaps forgetting that only two areas of the MK are opened and only nine rides (two or three of which don’t belong on the list at all and are only opened because the share the land with the true E-Ticket)!! That, my friend, is vastly different than the true PIXIE DUST of a midnight closing. And not just one thrown in when crowds are the heaviest. It needs to happen EVERY night in order to thin out the masses. Otherwise EVERYONE goes to the park, and stays until the end, on the one day that it does stay open late. No benefit there!! But if it’s an every night occurrence, then there are options again and everyone is not forced like cattle to “follow the herd”!!

Still making sense?

 

[Jeff in BigD]

I've always been unhappy with the way WDW does their hours anyway & I think this is a prime example of the money people taking a leak on everyone & telling them that it's raining...and there are these high quality yellow rain ponchos that you absolutely must buy!

Tomorrow is a perfect example:
It's a Saturday in August, I think the majority of kids are out of school.
MK's hours: 9am-10pm (on a weekend!)
DL's hours: 8am-12am

Ok, how's about...let's say...a Tuesday.
8/06/02:
MK's hours:9am-10pm
DL's hours:8am-11pm

DL's main customers are people who live in the area, while people at WDW are on vacation. Doesn't it stand to reason that people will have more time to spend in the parks if they're on a vacation & don't have chores or work the next morning? Wouldn't it also make more sense to have later hours, especially since most people on vacation like to sleep in a bit?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems like logic & scheduling are in completely different departments at WDW.

 

[airlarry!]

DK:

With all due respect, your premise is flawed. It is not 'one hour' it is at least two hours. If it normally stays open until 12 or 1 just a few short years ago, but now closes at 10, that is 2 or three hours lost. Getting back e#night seemed great at the time, until you realize it is only 1/8 of the park for extra money.

I've been mulling this for days. I think I've worked it out in my head now. Let's see if it comes out.

The bad thing about mgt's e*night decision is that late night in the MK went from being a bonus to old-timers (Baron & I could hit all the major rides back then while other people were watching parades or fireworks and hit even more b/c after these, nomral Joe Blow heads back for his hotel tired, while Baron & I and our familiies ---who knew to rest up during the heat of the day---spend the last hour of the park in relative quiet. If you knew what you were doing -- ie. arrive early, eat & swim at the pool int he middle, and stay late -- you got The Magic Big Time. )

Now, the MK is becoming like Epcot, where we never really could enjoy lesser crowds before closing, b/c while Illuminations did syphon a lot of the crowd, it wasn't as much of an effect because IMHO the size and scope of the park and its attractions. AND THEN TO TOP IT OFF, Epcot closes right after the parade! So thousands and thousands retreat en masse to the exit like cattle--clogging up the bus systems like mad.

Back to the subject. I went back on archive.org to check out old times for the MK, and suddenly in 1999 Deb Wills started talking about pre-midnight closings for the MK. Way before all this 911 mess.

All about the same time that AV relates that Eisner started preparing for the fall.

I don't want to accuse anyone of being Darth Vader here, but after the rash of corporate news lately, is there anyone here that doubts that changes like the cuts in hours combined with increased ticket prices or add ons is not a sign of a mgt team that is bleeding the company down a bit? This guy made $500 million in stock money in one year alone, and then took another $29 million in a year when Disney's performance faltered.

I truly believe that Eisner has seen the handwriting on the wall and is looking for the big pay out. I used to laugh when AV would write that -- thinking that corporate America cannot be that callous and greedy. Whoops! Was I wrong. How haughty can we be as shareholders if we think that our company could never be infiltrated by people that who care more fro the short term gain in stock then the long term damage to the company. Kind of an arrogant attitude when you think about it.

 

[Pinnie]

Mind if I add my .02 worth here???

I, for one, don't mind paying the extra $12 for e-ticket night for a couple of reasons.

1. I already have a lot invested in the trip, so the extra $12 is moot.

2. It's a nice perk for resort GUESTS to enjoy the park after the "day trippers" leave.

I have been following the discussion here and got to thinking about how we, as consumers, look at "cuts". It used to be that a bag of potato chips was a full pound, now they are 14 oz, yet price didn't go down. Used to be every car had a cigarette lighter, now most companys only include the "lighter" if you purchase a "smoking package".

IMHO, I personally think the e-ticket is for the benefit of the RESORT guests.

I was supposed to go to an e-ticket night in July, but got sick during the day and didn't go. I was told by a CM that if I felt better later, as long as I arrived at the park before closing, I could stay with my group but NOT ride or do an attractions without the wristband. The stores on Main Street would be open for my "convenience", too.

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