Looking for Advice....

[mjkacmom]

Sorry not getting your point. So because her mom is healthy it is okay to shuffle her off? My parent is 92 has dementia but like your 74 yo could run a marathon(again sarcasm) tomorrow. Is it convenient to us to have my parent with us, heck no, but I will never abandon them to anyone. My blood, my life, my responsibility until if & when medical issues make that impossible

Not any of your business but that is her cash assets, we have enough between their pension/medical trust to hit 101, after that we'll work it out but thanks for your financial advice

Why can't the OP's mother live independently now? My dad is 78 and was diagnosed with Alzheimer's at least 12 years ago, I'm in charge of his care, fortunately my parents were very smart financially. He has a caretaker. He will never live with me, although if it was my mom, things would be different. He wasn't easy to live with as a child, his negative qualities have multiplied tremendously with his disease. When it's time, I will find a nice place for him (I found a couple that will guarantee a Medicaid bed with a certain amount upfront, like $400,000.). I will not subject my family to non stop verbal abuse. I see him every day, my kids see him several times a week, but nope, he will never live with us (and being around a bunch of people really makes him very agitated).

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

You know the OP's mother didn't give the children everything she had, right? She kept the proceeds of the sale of her home (under-market value though it might have been) except for the portion used to build the addition. She also continued to work for some number of years and presumably had control of her own income. Between those two sources of funds (OP never mentioned her Dad's estate, or any pension or SS income) we can assume that's what she's been living off. Her expenses are apparently her portion of the utilities, her own groceries and clothing and her travel.

Although no dollar-amounts have been mentioned, it's been pointed out up-thread that even modest rent, or perhaps even normal taxes and maintenance on the house itself, would have very likely cost her more over the years than her investment in the addition. At that point one can assume she would have been expected to be self-supporting, on whatever income she had. The OP doesn't mention the decision to move her in was primarily financial - on either the mother's part or the OP's. And since the OP also doesn't mention being her conservator, or having POA, one can also assume that being of sound mind and body, the mother could have stayed in her own home if she chose.

I hope @appleplie will chime in here to correct me if I've misconstrued anything. I'm not advocating for what was done, only trying to bring clarity to the facts as they've been presented. There are so many rabbit trails in this thread now due to people telling their own stories and people posing convoluted hypotheticals, it's become difficult to keep everything straight.

FIVE separate occasions the OP mentions that there are multiple siblings. Here is one:

I think the reason my husband feels that we don't owe her is the fact that my siblings have already received a payout from the sale of her original home. My share was her investment in my home that I would retain upon her death. Along with the resentment that they're not here helping out.

The kids sold the home and split the money. The OP took in the mother and added an apartment AND extra square footage to the home. Now the husband, and daughter want to sell the house, put mom elsewhere and think she is owed ZERO from the sale of the home after living there for 19 years and financing part of it. Also, the OP admits the mother's standard of living will be drastically reduced as she doesn't have much money after paying rent at new place.

And yes. I do realize that the OP is now claiming only one sibling.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Apple, I am glad to see you be more specific!
However, I really don't think it matters what other people on a chatboard might feel/think.
That really has no bearing on your specific situation.

And, you did not remind everyone that this amount could have been considered as a gift, early inheritance, as your siblings received... and not an investment,

Not sure why you are still engaging here????
I do hope you are getting some good legal, real-estate, and tax advice!!!

 

[Marchand63]

Why can't the OP's mother live independently now? My dad is 78 and was diagnosed with Alzheimer's at least 12 years ago, I'm in charge of his care, fortunately my parents were very smart financially. He has a caretaker. He will never live with me, although if it was my mom, things would be different. He wasn't easy to live with as a child, his negative qualities have multiplied tremendously with his disease. When it's time, I will find a nice place for him (I found a couple that will guarantee a Medicaid bed with a certain amount upfront, like $400,000.). I will not subject my family to non stop verbal abuse. I see him every day, my kids see him several times a week, but nope, he will never live with us (and being around a bunch of people really makes him very agitated).

Maybe she can but OP has said she gave her M the impression their arrangements were permanent & has not discussed her plans with her- REALLY?!?!?

Good for you, that is your dynamic. Mine is different. Apples & oranges, neither wrong but all need to be with input from all parties not unilateral decisions.

Now I am really done here

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Bingo!!!

Next question- How much do you think it would have cost to stay in her original home for 19 years?

How much do you think an apartment elsewhere would have cost for 19 years?

So, after all the posts in this thread, you still think it's perfectly fine to displace Mom & not reimburse any of the money she spent adding to your home?

Threads like these seriously damage my faith in the human race. I sincerely hope my DS doesn't marry someone like some of the self-centered posters here. FWIW, we wouldn't have considered taking money from my parents, until they passed. In the end, they left us property that we would never sell. DFIL left MIL a sizable life insurance, but we wouldn't consider asking for any of that money or asking her to sell her home. It's all hers to enjoy as long as she lives.

I'll stop there, instead of saying what I really think about some of the posters in this thread.

 

[moon]

With all due respect to your professional experience, I doubt that very many of us here have much concern at all that either scenario will ever befall us.

And I'm sure those widows also didn't have much concern that this would befall them; in fact, they trusted their children with everything, and that's how the children were able to take advantage of them.

 

[appleplie]

yes. she should. At a MINIMUM. she's not getting anything for the appreciation of the value of the home in 19 years---which almost certainly would be worth more than the added taxes or maintence.

You feel it would be reasonable to force someone to sell a home they paid cash for in full, with the stated undersatnding that they would be able to live in that home for the rest of their life, and give them none of the funds from the sale of that home?

A home has to be maintained to appreciate-who gets the appreciation?

 

[sunshinehighway]

Bingo!!!

Next question- How much do you think it would have cost to stay in her original home for 19 years?

How much do you think an apartment elsewhere would have cost for 19 years?

Yeah it's really starting to sounds like you took advantage of your mother in her grief all those years ago. You and your husband decided it was easiest and best for you to add value to your house by her building an addition. You could have helped her transition to be more independent but that would've been work for you and you wouldn't have benefited financially from it.
It's pretty obvious what's going on since all your posts are about money and how you think she's mooched off.

 

[sunshinehighway]

A home has to be maintained to appreciate-who gets the appreciation?

Clearly your mother doesn't get much appreciation.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Why can't the OP's mother live independently now? My dad is 78 and was diagnosed with Alzheimer's at least 12 years ago, I'm in charge of his care, fortunately my parents were very smart financially. He has a caretaker. He will never live with me, although if it was my mom, things would be different. He wasn't easy to live with as a child, his negative qualities have multiplied tremendously with his disease. When it's time, I will find a nice place for him (I found a couple that will guarantee a Medicaid bed with a certain amount upfront, like $400,000.). I will not subject my family to non stop verbal abuse. I see him every day, my kids see him several times a week, but nope, he will never live with us (and being around a bunch of people really makes him very agitated).

You keep bringing this up. It's clear your family has significant resources - that's great.

Now consider a situation where there are way fewer resources. No cushy pension or IRA, no real savings or insurance policies, just a small social security check and perhaps a house worth around $80K or less in someone who's let say, early 70s, so not working, either. (I could include more details but let's just leave it at that.)

Let's assume her living situation in her home is not going to work long term for whatever reason (could be any number of reasons).

Mom has to figure something out. Ideally before the you-know-what hits the fan. (Illness or some other crisis comes to mind.)

She can get a condo for, say, $60K, but then you must consider living expenses, taxes, utilities, car and insurance, health insurance (medicare supplement) and condo monthly fees, and once the condo is purchased, her income and savings will not support those expenses long term.

Due to her assets (the house) she cannot qualify for low income housing.

She also cannot afford a full-cost 55+ apartment long term.

Nor is she anywhere near you, but requires your help with various things on, lets say a weekly or bi-weekly basis.

What are her options then?

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

So, after this thread, you still think it's perfectly fine to displace Mom & not reimburse any of the money she spent adding to your home?

Threads like these seriously damage my faith in the human race. I sincerely hope my DS doesn't marry someone like some of self-centered posters here. FWIW, we wouldn't have considered taking money from my parents, until they passed. In the end, they left us property that we would never sell. DFIL left MIL a sizable life insurance, but we wouldn't consider asking for any of that money or asking her to sell her home. It's all hers to enjoy as long as she lives.

I'll stop there, instead of saying what I really think about some of the posters in this thread.

I think this is where I'm confused. I thought the mom added space for herself. That to me is different than if mom had added on to the home in general and the family benefitted. The way it sounds is that mom basically pre rented an attached apartment for 19 years.

Regardless of my opinion of the situation on the whole there is a big difference between the two to me.

I read as mom needed her own space and had no desire to live within the home as it existed. I mean how does an extra kitchenette where mom lives give the family some huge bonus to their home?

I can't wrap my head around where everybody is coming up with OP taking advantage because this addition is so great. The extra suite has to be dismantled when mom (or they all) move out. It's extra square footage but sometimes that doesn't add all that much value if it's wasted space. I think how much that extra space adds to the value of the home is still a question.

ETA-OP keeps insisting she'll help her mom financially but is trying to figure out if 1) she's owes her a lump sum or 2) to continue to support her morher's current lifestyle that she had while living rent free and spending her income freely.

 

[ronandannette]

FIVE separate occasions the OP mentions that there are multiple siblings. Here is one:



The kids sold the home and split the money. The OP took in the mother and added an apartment AND extra square footage to the home. Now the husband, and daughter want to sell the house, put mom elsewhere and think she is owed ZERO from the sale of the home after living there for 19 years and financing part of it. Also, the OP admits the mother's standard of living will be drastically reduced as she doesn't have much money after paying rent at new place.

And yes. I do realize that the OP is now claiming only one sibling.

...Nobody manipulated anyone. Once the suggestion was made for her to move in with us-we couldn't make it fast enough. She wanted out of her home Asa- and left as soon as she could taking only the things that she wanted from the home. She couldn't get out fast enough and wanted nothing to do with the process of preparing a home for sake or snything else. As I said in my original post-decisions were made in haste-by her as well. We were all in shock and doing our best to do what we thought was right at the time. She sold her house to my siblings at a reduced cost. She used the proceeds to finance her apartment. It was the only way she was going to be able to live with me comfortably. She would have her privacy with the space to entertain. My siblings flipped the house and made money off of it. My mother had other money that she spent. She did not have enough income coming to replenish what she spent. It cost thousand each t]year to winter in the south. This is paid for out of savings that is not replaced.

The brother BOUGHT the house from the mother at an under-market price and then flipped it. Did you miss that part? Nevermind - this really doesn't matter all that much to me or probably you either. OP can come back and speak for herself if she wants. Peace-out.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

A home has to be maintained to appreciate-who gets the appreciation?

Oh for pete's sake you said you didn't expect your mom to do maintence on the house why would you take the stance now that because you did the maintence and not her therefore you deserve the appreciation in value. I'm not even saying you need to give more than the initial investment amount but I am commenting on how you phrased your comment.

So if she chipped in $ for that maintence (which by the way you said "She was never asked to contribute and she never offered. We would not have taken anything, even if offered." ) that would have been different? If she did more changing of the lightbulbs or lawn care would that have made it different? Can you please just make up your mind which version of your lifestory you want to tell (again not trying to be mean but my goodness things have just been changed multiple times over).

 

[mjkacmom]

FIVE separate occasions the OP mentions that there are multiple siblings. Here is one:



The kids sold the home and split the money. The OP took in the mother and added an apartment AND extra square footage to the home. Now the husband, and daughter want to sell the house, put mom elsewhere and think she is owed ZERO from the sale of the home after living there for 19 years and financing part of it. Also, the OP admits the mother's standard of living will be drastically reduced as she doesn't have much money after paying rent at new place.

And yes. I do realize that the OP is now claiming only one sibling.

No, the brother purchased the house for under market value, lived in it for several years, made upgrades, and sold it at a profit. The OP says her mom won't be able to spend $10,000 a year sun-birding anymore. The mom got the money from her son for the sale of her house.

 

[appleplie]

So, after all the posts in this thread, you still think it's perfectly fine to displace Mom & not reimburse any of the money she spent adding to your home?

Threads like these seriously damage my faith in the human race. I sincerely hope my DS doesn't marry someone like some of the self-centered posters here. FWIW, we wouldn't have considered taking money from my parents, until they passed. In the end, they left us property that we would never sell. DFIL left MIL a sizable life insurance, but we wouldn't consider asking for any of that money or asking her to sell her home. It's all hers to enjoy as long as she lives.

I'll stop there, instead of saying what I really think about some of the posters in this thread.

Yeah it's really starting to sounds like you took advantage of your mother in her grief all those years ago. You and your husband decided it was easiest and best for you to add value to your house by her building an addition. You could have helped her transition to be more independent but that would've been work for you and you wouldn't have benefited financially from it.
It's pretty obvious what's going on since all your posts are about money and how you think she's mooched off.

No-the reason I posted the financial stuff is because everyone has decided that I'm making all kinds of money off of this and that's my motive. Also, as I mentioned in my first post-I was going to help her out financially, but never said how much I was going to help her. She will be fine.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I think this is where I'm confused. I thought the mom added space for herself. That to me is different than if mom had added on to the home in general and the family benefitted. The way it sounds is that mom basically pre rented an attached apartment for 19 years.

Regardless of my opinion of the situation on the whole there is a big difference between the two to me.

I read as mom needed her own space and had no desire to live within the home as it existed. I mean how does an extra kitchenette where mom lives give the family some huge bonus to their home?

I can't wrap my head around where everybody is coming up with OP taking advantage because this addition is so great. The extra suite has to be dismantled when mom (or they all) move out. It's extra square footage but sometimes that doesn't add all that much value if it's wasted space. I think how much that extra space adds to the value of the home is still a question.

ETA-OP keeps insisting she'll help her mom financially but is trying to figure out if 1) she's owes her a lump sum or 2) to continue to support her morher's current lifestyle that she had while living rent free and spending her income freely.

I agree that Mom added a living space for herself. That means her home is being sold out from under her. Would you like for someone to sell your home without compensation & tell you where to move to? By the way, you may have to struggle financially & change your lifestyle to make things meet. The OP has continued to add to the story to make herself look better. That's certainly convenient for her. We see that all the time. I wish I could say it amazes me that people continue to buy all the added information & change their opinion like the wind, but I suppose it supports their opinion that we should care about ourselves above all others. According to some, we should always do what's best for us. All that said, after the OPs latest post, it appears to be very clear that they want to find a way to not reimburse anything to Mom for her addition.

 

[appleplie]

Oh for pete's sake you said you didn't expect your mom to do maintence on the house why would you take the stance now that because you did the maintence and not her therefore you deserve the appreciation in value. I'm not even saying you need to give more than the initial investment amount but I am commenting on how you phrased your comment.

So if she chipped in $ for that maintence (which by the way you said "She was never asked to contribute and she never offered. We would not have taken anything, even if offered." ) that would have been different? If she did more changing of the lightbulbs or lawn care would that have made it different? Can you please just make up your mind which version of your lifestory you want to tell (again not trying to be mean but my goodness things have just been changed multiple times over).

I realize after re-reading how it came across.
My point was that if we install an in-ground pool, fencing, patio, walkway. Hardwood floors, etc that also increase the value of the home-who gets this? This is all hypothetical now because I was always going to help her and I am going to talk a professional concerning what a fair lump sum should be. She is getting taken care of. That's all my very first post was asking. Would the answer be different if it weren't my mom?

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

I agree that Mom added a living space for herself. That means her home is being sold out from under her. Would you like for someone to sell your home without compensation & tell you where to move? By the way, you may have to struggle financially & change your lifestyle to make things meet. The OP has continued to add to the story to make herself look better. That's certainly convenient for her. We see that all the time. I wish I could say it amazes me that people continue to buy all the added information & change their opinion like the wind, but I suppose it supports their opinion that we should care about ourselves above all others. According to some, we should always do what's best for us. All that said, after the OPs latest post, it appears to be very clear that they want to find a way to not reimburse anything to Mom for her addition.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that it's her house. I'm really trying to not have any opinions on this thread because it would be so wrapped up in my own emotion of how I feel about my own mother and how things are done without question in my family.


As for the updates-I think some posters do change their tune to make themselves look better. I also think that sometimes folks on these boards demand a high level of detail and minutia and/or people start going off on imagined scenarios. In these cases the OP coming back to clarify or add additional info is going to look like a changing story because "why didn't you give all this info up front?"

This has happened to me. I've asked what I thought was a narrow scoped question and all of a sudden connections were being made that made my eyes spin. It's a message board, par for the course, I guess. Some people get a raw deal and some people are shady

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think this is where I'm confused. I thought the mom added space for herself. That to me is different than if mom had added on to the home in general and the family benefitted. The way it sounds is that mom basically pre rented an attached apartment for 19 years.

Regardless of my opinion of the situation on the whole there is a big difference between the two to me.

I read as mom needed her own space and had no desire to live within the home as it existed. I mean how does an extra kitchenette where mom lives give the family some huge bonus to their home?

I can't wrap my head around where everybody is coming up with OP taking advantage because this addition is so great. The extra suite has to be dismantled when mom (or they all) move out. It's extra square footage but sometimes that doesn't add all that much value if it's wasted space. I think how much that extra space adds to the value of the home is still a question.

ETA-OP keeps insisting she'll help her mom financially but is trying to figure out if 1) she's owes her a lump sum or 2) to continue to support her morher's current lifestyle that she had while living rent free and spending her income freely.

Of course it adds value to the home - a home the OP owns. Home costs in many areas have risen quite a bit in the past 20 yrs. (Let's assume it took at least a year to plan and build it.)

Appleplie, how many square feet is her and your space that was added? I assume she has a full bath? Kitchen? Bedroom? Living room? What else? Any outdoor space like a deck or porch? Attic? Cellar?

Is it possible to still make it a legal apartment, even if it isn't now? (Often you can legally convert an interior space for a legal apartment, but you cannot add on to do it for a certain number of years.)

People rent out both legal and illegal apartments all the time, and many people have extended family living and au-pair/nanny situations, so I don't think we should assume that that space would not be wanted by anyone.

OP, as I understand it, paid taxes on the home, which presumably increased once the addition was built. Those could've been significant, times 19 years, so the OP is saying that those could've negated the money that DM initially invested in the home. In all likelihood it could've well evened out.

For many, the issue is less a financial dilemma at this point than it is an ethical one. (ETA and clearly there are two schools of thought on that!) Did DM rely on the belief that she would have a home with her daughter for a lifetime? Had she known she was going to be asked to part ways, would she a) have invested her money in this home in the first place or b) lived a lifestyle that did not require saving money in order to pay for a future of "independent living"?

 

[tarheelmjfan]

No-the reason I posted the financial stuff is because everyone has decided that I'm making all kinds of money off of this and that's my motive. Also, as I mentioned in my first post-I was going to help her out financially, but never said how much I was going to help her. She will be fine.

Sorry, but it's hard to believe you're going to help your Mom financially, when you say your DH thinks you shouldn't give her anything out of the sell of the house. Your negative opinion about the way she spends money says a lot. I hoped this thread would convince you to try to get him to change his mind, until your most recent posts. It now appears you're trying to justify his opinion. For you Mom's sake, I continue to hope you'll find it within yourself to override your DH & do what's right for your Mom. You made her a promise that you should try to keep.