Looking for Advice....

[Marchand63]

Wow.... just WOW....
What a cold, hard, dagger.
Is that even appropriate...

The kind of post / poster I do not want to give any consideration to on a chat-board.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. But you don't have to be rude and passive aggressive about it.

That was not just rude, or passive aggressive.
That was cold, hard, and very very aggressive.
No question.

So it's better that basically her husband decided mom needs to go without a thought or consideration/conversation? It was sarcastic. They seem to have unilaterally decided this woman's fate. Sorry but I would be so disappointed I raised such a child.

 

[VandVsmama]

So it's better that basically her husband decided mom needs to go without a thought or consideration/conversation? It was sarcastic. They seem to have unilaterally decided this woman's fate. Sorry but I would be so disappointed I raised such a child.

This is exactly why the OP should not have asked her question on Disboards. Because when it comes to family issues, a lot of folks tend to read into stuff and they jump to conclusions based on their own point of view and not taking into account the fact that it is hard to describe with the written word complicated family dynamics.

OP:
Do what you & your family feel is best for your situation and you should ignore all of our advice here, including mine. Make your own decision.

 

[Marchand63]

This is exactly why the OP should not have asked her question on Disboards. Because when it comes to family issues, a lot of folks tend to read into stuff and they jump to conclusions based on their own point of view and not taking into account the fact that it is hard to describe with the written word complicated family dynamics.

OP:
Do what you & your family feel is best for your situation and you should ignore all of our advice here, including mine. Make your own decision.

So op saying they have not had conversation with mom is reading into what? ITA don't post family drama if you don't want opinions

 

[powellrj]

I don't think there is a mom's side of the story right now. OP was just asking for advice before approaching her mom.

What I meant by hearing moms side of the story is how everyone behaved. The OP has portrayed her mom has a cranky & manipulative Grandma. I would like to hear Grandmas take on how she felt the relationship was. I am going to guess that mom may have helped out more than she is being given credit for.

On moving Grandma to an over 55 home. My dad has lived in 2 since my mom was sick. While its really nice with weekly maid service including laundry, meals with silver, table clothes and menus, weekly bus service, lots of activities. Other than the meals, people didn't mingle. Nobody went to the activities. I stayed with him while my mom was dying and tried to show him what he could do once mom was gone, and nobody was at any of the activities. Nobody signed up for the bus trip, nobody was at the movie, nobody played card. Many didn't even come down for meals and ate in their rooms. If I thought he was going to make new friends there, I was wrong.

 

[Kaytie]

Oh, please. It wasn't cold, hard, rude, or any version of aggressive. If anything, it was cynical.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. But you don't have to be rude and passive aggressive about it.

That was not just rude, or passive aggressive.
That was cold, hard, and very very aggressive.
No question.

 

[Kaytie]

Ohhhhh, I am quite sure that this is what the mother wanted.

Apparently it's what the entire family expected. Not wanted, expected. I, too, would love to hear from the mother after the discussion. No point in seeking her side now, she isn't aware there's an issue.

 

[focusondisney]

Ok granted my grandmother is older than the OP's mom but it's still a similar-enough situation. My grandmother didn't have a DL for years and years because she never needed to and hated the thought of driving. Her husband (my grandfather) was in the marines and they moved around (though not too too crazy like some other families did). My grandmother was pregnant 10 times and had 5 live births out of that (technically she had 3 live children before her early to mid-20s by her first husband who passed away due to a heart condition, she met my grandfather and before they were married she was pregnant with my mom). She was too busy raising the children to have a job especially as her eldest had a cognitive disorder (though high functioning) and it was well quite frankly a different time back then. She only got a DL when it was appearant that my grandfather just couldn't be the only driver.

Now I know this is a bit different of course since there's like a 10 or so current age difference between the OP's mom and my grandmother but still. She lives in a senior living community that costs a pretty penny but that was only because my grandfather set up it so she would have money when he passed.

Nowadays I would feel differently if a 54 year old woman has such dependency but 19 years ago? Ehh maybe it wouldn't be so foreign as it seems now.

I have to disagree that things were that different for women 19 years ago. That was 1998, not 1958 for heaven's sake!! Women in their 50's were just as capable at taking care of themselves 20 years ago as they are today. I recently turned 60 & have many relatives & friends in their late 60s, their 70s & 80s. In fact, I think I only know 1 woman younger than 80 that has never worked outside the home. I can't even imagine being 54 & needing to move in with my children after a spouse passed. I also know many such women who were widowed in their 50's or 60's & not 1 did anything like that. Everyone of them moved forward with their lives & maintained independence until their own health failed.

OP, I think you made a mistake taking her in back then. Possibly out of guilt, possibly to help with your kids or who knows why. But I think you created this by never addressing the future & treating her like some fragile creature who couldn't function on her own. And unfortunately, now at 74, she may actually not be able to be independent much longer. Disabling health issues can come up at any time at that age. Or they may never come. So you moved her in when she really didn't need to be there. And now when she really might start to need help for real, she has to be out on her own. Makes no sense to me.

IMHO, this is a family issue. You should now engage both your mom & siblings in creating a plan for her future. You are certainly entitled to move on with your life. But that doesn't really entitle you to throw your mom's life into chaos & dictate her future either.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I have to disagree that things were that different for women 19 years ago. That was 1998, not 195 8 for heaven's sake!! Women in their 50's were just as capable at taking care of themselves 20 years ago as they are today. I recently turned 60 & have many relatives & friends in their late 60s, their 70s & 80s. In fact, I think I only know 1 woman younger than 80 that has never worked outside the home. I can't even imagine being 54 & needing to move in with my children after a spouse passed. I also know many such women who were widowed in their 50's or 60's & not 1 did anything like that. Everyone of them moved forward with their lives & maintained independence until their own health failed.

I think you may be taking my comment more indepthly here than intented. I responded to a poster who said "how did she support herself? Did she never hold down a job? Has she really had someone else to be her knight in shining armor, taking care of everything for her, for her whole adult life?" And I explained a possible reason. I didn't say it was acceptable nor did I say it was the norm. I did however say it wouldn't necessarily seem as foreign as it does now if a 54 year old woman had a huge dependency (ETA: a 54 yr old women back in 1998 would have been born in 1944 and a 54 yr old women today would have been born around 1963 for reference. My own mom was born in 1958 and yeah things were different then than they were in 1944 at least to some degree). Sorry you took such issue with me giving an example out of my own life and warped it into some "women were just as capable of taking care of themselves back then" type talk...'cuz that wasn't at all what I was getting at nor what I said.

 

[mjkacmom]

This is a bad situation all around. It was kind of the OP to allow mom to move in (and most likely unnecessary at 54!). I'm sure mom had extra money, not paying rent all of these years. However, it appears she spent her money under the assumption that this arrangement was permanent.

However, should the OP and her DH be burdened for another 20 years, since it sounds like the relationship is a little toxic? In my family, it is not the norm for adult children and parents to live together. My grandmother lived at home until her death at 91. She scrimped and saved, and was able to afford a caregiver. If not, she would've gone into a home - she would rather have set sail on an iceberg than live with her adult children. She actually passed during a one week stay at a home, her caregiver was having surgery, and she refused help from family. My mom did all of her grocery shopping, doctors visits, etc. but moving in was a line not crossed.

DH's parents live in an over 55 community, have for over 20 years (freestanding house, do their own cooking, laundry, but there are community activities they love), and they are in their 90's.

 

[lifesavacation]

I'm sure my dad would love to switch situations with you. My 93 year old grandmother refuses to live with anyone even though she's not capable of living alone.

I would suggest a family meeting with your mom and all your siblings so that a housing change for your mom can be discussed openly, caringly, and respectfully. It seems odd to me that you've only discussed this with your husband. Unless your mother is incapacitated, she should be included in all the discussions about where she is going to live.

 

[moon]

I would guess that the costs for insurance, property taxes, and maintenance for 19 years is more than the cost of the addition to the house.
What I would do is pay for the deposit on the senior apartment, pay the moving costs for the move to the apartment, and set up a small savings account for her--say $5000. Help her set up a budget so she knows where her money will go and how much "extra " money she will have each month.
You have had her with you for 19 years, start talking with her about the future, take her to visit the senior home. Is there a reason that your younger siblings can't step up and take care of her? It seems only fair that they should pitch in and do their part. You have taken care of her for 19 years, seems like it is their turn to take care of mom.

Also, this is a good example of why people should not make life-changing decisions in a hurry after the death of a family member. It needs to be well thought out, talked about, involve a lawyer if needed.

My mom lived with us for 7 years full time and during the winter months for 9 years before that. We were reaching a point where it was getting harder for her to be on her own but she fell and couldn't be on her own in our home anymore before we had started to talk with her about different living arrangements. (she was older, too, almost 89 when she went to the nursing home.)

Taken care of her for 19 years? It sounds like the OP's mother is mentally and physically able. She drives and takes vacations on her own, and pays her utilities and I assume she also pays for her groceries. clothing, etc. and actually the mother helped with the children -according the OP "not as much as she could have"- yeah sure, but she helped.

As for taxes and insurance, those would have been paid regardless of the mother being there. I don't see much "taking care of", really.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Exactly... Sometimes extended family under one roof works.
Sometimes it doesn't.

This isn't past centuries....
Life is just not 'The Walton's'
Many, many, MANY, parents live their lives without living 20-30-40 years with their children.
In fact, I will go as far to say that this is not the majority or even the 'norm'.

The assumption that the OP and her husband, just have to have the mother living with them, or they are putting her on some cold hard iceberg and shoving her out to sea alone is just completely and totally inappropriate. A cold, hard, aggressive, judgement.

The OP and her husband seem to have made their decision...
They are husband and wife. They should make their decisions.
The OP did not ask for any input on that decision.

There is no obligation for this to be opened up for discussion with the mother, or anyone else.
However, at this point, I do think that the OP should let the mother know what is going on, and the mother should have some input and discussion as to where and how she wants to move.

The OP's only question was, how much should she financially 'owe' her mother.
My personal answer to that, yet again... I don't think that anything is actually 'owed'. But, legally, it might not be that simple.

 

[moon]

OP, the issue that I see here is 'PRECEDENT'.
I am not a lawyer or legal person at all, but I understand that somebody actually residing in a residence for any length of time, in many states, gives them legal recourse...
Something like what is called 'Squatter's Rights'.
I don't think that anything could overided the presence of any legal paperwork, or absence of, other than that 'precedient'. That long term residency.

Squatter's rights? Wow, just wow...

 

[Wishing on a star]

I'm sure my dad would love to switch situations with you. My 93 year old grandmother refuses to live with anyone even though she's not capable of living alone.

I would suggest a family meeting with your mom and all your siblings so that a housing change for your mom can be discussed openly, caringly, and respectfully. It seems odd to me that you've only discussed this with your husband. Unless your mother is incapacitated, she should be included in all the discussions about where she is going to live.

That would be my MIL, during her last days....
Only, while she didn't want to live with anyone, she thought that we should give up our lives, DH should quit his job, almost to retirement, and we should live an hour out in 'nowhere' to personally take care of her. Even if DH were able to somehow continue to work, living there.... I am completely and totally physically unable to care for somebody who is almost totally incapacitated and bed-ridden/paralyzed.

There is simply no amount of discussion that would have changed any of the decisions that we were faced with having to make.
She whined and wailed... but doing what she very unrealistically thought we should do, was not even up for discussion.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

I am thankfully not in this position yet in my life. However... it seems that "elder care" is much like child care, just in reverse. You find ways to help your kids be independent and do stuff on their own. You need to guide your elders towards delegating daily tasks so that others can take care of it for them.

Totally understandable that 19 years ago, in the immediate aftermath of a family tragedy, you took over your mother's care and removed responsibilities from her. There is no way that having an adult conversation about this situation is going to be NOT awkward now that you have prolonged it for so long. Especially if she moved in and presumed the situation would never change.

So probably the best leader to the conversation that you HAVE to have with her at this point is, suggesting those very same things that you told us about your newfound concerns about your community and neighborhood. Mention the crime, the traffic, the lack of being able to enjoy the yard... Focus on the fact that YES, you and DH said you would never move, but you have zero control over what the city zones and approves that isn't your property. If they do something that makes your home undesirable anymore, you should be able to have this conversation like adults and not circularly argue about "who said what when and how do you think that makes me feel?" blame-seeking-and-shifting conversations. Do not make the conversation personal or about people/their actions in any way.... stick to your guns about worrying about things like parking garages and petty theft and vandalism!

 

[Wishing on a star]

Ohhh good grief.... Seriously???
Moon... I said long term residency. then I just mentioned 'similar to squatter's rights'...

Sorry if there is some confusion or some issues with reading and comprehension.
But, hey.... nice try!!!!!

 

[lifesavacation]

That would be my MIL, during her last days....
Only, while she didn't want to live with anyone, she thought that we should give up our lives, DH should quit his job, almost to retirement, and we should live an hour out in 'nowhere' to personally take care of her. Even if DH were able to somehow continue to work, living there.... I am completely and totally physically unable to care for somebody who is almost totally incapacitated and bed-ridden/paralyzed.

There is simply no amount of discussion that would have changed any of the decisions that we were faced with having to make.
She whined and wailed... but doing what she very unrealistically thought we should do, was not even up for discussion.

That is exactly the situation with my dad and grandmother, except he lives 7 hours away. She actually expects him to cut her grass once a week.

These situations can be very difficult for families. And, in my family, have ruined sibling relationships because there is disagreement on the best way to help someone who refuses help but can't live independently. It's tough all around.

 

[Marchand63]

Exactly... Sometimes extended family under one roof works.
Sometimes it doesn't.

This isn't past centuries....
Life is just not 'The Walton's'
Many, many, MANY, parents live their lives without living 20-30-40 years with their children.
In fact, I will go as far to say that this is not the majority or even the 'norm'.

The assumption that the OP and her husband, just have to have the mother living with them, or they are putting her on some cold hard iceberg and shoving her out to sea alone is just completely and totally inappropriate. A cold, hard, aggressive, judgement.

The OP and her husband seem to have made their decision...
They are husband and wife. They should make their decisions.
The OP did not ask for any input on that decision.

There is no obligation for this to be opened up for discussion with the mother, or anyone else.
However, at this point, I do think that the OP should let the mother know what is going on, and the mother should have some input and discussion as to where and how she wants to move.

The OP's only question was, how much should she financially 'owe' her mother.
My personal answer to that, yet again... I don't think that anything is actually 'owed'. But, legally, it might not be that simple.

No one said they have to her living with them but they owe her the common decency of including her in the discussion. From her post it seems her H made the decision.

What is legal & what is moral & decent can be 2 different things.

 

[appleplie]

This will be my last update-I am not throwing my mother to the wolves. I have looked out and cared for her for 19 years. I plan to continue that. I will always make sure that she is safe and comfortable. Whether I move or not, this is not a good living situation for her or me. She stays at home most days and dwells on minutia. I also mentioned that I think there are depression issues due to the isolation. I thought, and have thought for a very long time that she would be much happier to be around other people. This is actually why she was happy here for so long-because there was always activity going on with the kids. I thought that us having sort of "separate lives" and her developing some other interests would actually improve our relationship. At this time, we do not have a lot of conversation because she has no other outside interests or anything going on with her life to talk about. I tried to do the right thing 19 years ago-it wasn't the right thing. I took this as an opportunity to right a wrong for all of us. I figured she'd be angry at first and then possibly realize that maybe it is best.

I have not hidden any of this from her. As I said before, my husband and I have had conversations before about the possibility of selling the house someday, but never got serious about it. There was nothing to discuss with my mother and something she would have stressed about that may have never happened. I don't update her on every thought I ever have. We have not been plotting her life behind her back. The opportunity to purchase this new house literally just came up within the last week and I was simply looking for guidance and opinions for when I do have this conversation with my mother within the next few days.
I am not resentful of her lifestyle. I hope she spends every last dime of her money on herself. Her bills are paid and she does what she wants with the rest. Our living situation has allowed for her to be very comfortable. This will be a change for her that she wasn't anticipating. I will not be leaving her destitute. I mentioned in my first post that I will be assisting her with her expenses. My question was more of-how much should I be expected to help? Should she be required to make any changes to her lifestyle?

There is no denying the fact that her investment in my house has added to the current market value. Again, I am not looking to stick it to her. There have been many other "upgrades" if you want to call them and additional money put into the house by my husband and I. It is very difficult at this point, to determine how much her addition has added. Maybe I need to speak to a professional to determine that. I think that if you added up everything that has been spent through the years on improvements-we've actually spent more than the house is currently worth due to "over-improvement" for our neighborhood at this point, if that makes any sense. I want to fair to her, but I need to be fair to myself as well. I'm simply trying to figure out what she's entitled too. I wanted an honest opinion so that it wasn't simply out of emotion.

As far as siblings go, this is my problem and mine to workout. They have the freedom to do as they please-it might be the right thing for them to help out, but that doesn't mean they will.

 

[because]

I've read all 4 pages, including OP's update. Here's what I think. Take my opinion for what it's worth...which is worth nothing really...just like the rest of our opinions here.

1. 
   
2. Your DM has no legal rights to get any money from you & DH when your house is sold...assuming that her name is not on the deed/title to the house.

.

Are you a lawyer to be able to say this so emphatically?

The OP said that the money her mom gave her not only paid for the apartment, but also added additional living space for her family. So, her family has been benefitting from her mother's money too. I would think that she would at least be liable for paying Mom back for the additional square footage that was added for her family's enjoyment.

The OP will be benefitting from additional value to her home on the sale, so the fact that she paid taxes on this addition only makes sense. She has a bigger house, she is taking the profit from the addition, so she absolutely should have been paying the real estate taxes on the bigger house.

The OP has siblings. How are they going to react to Mom not getting her investment back on the sale of the house? They could see this as part of their inheritance. The OP did do maintenance on her larger house, she paid the taxes, but she is also benefitting from the increased value, so the additional taxes and home owner's taxes are a wash.

There may be tax liabilities too. In 1998, the maximum IRS gift exclusion was $10,000. Was the money claimed as a gift and taxes paid on anything over the max gift exclusion? If not, will the IRS see it as a loan and require payback to Mom?

As an example: we have a relative that paid off my mother's house when she retired so that she could continue to stay in her house. The money was over the IRS annual max gift exclusion. Per their tax attorneys, she did not claim it as a gift and then have to pay taxes on the amount over the gift exclusion. But us children know that we have to pay the relative back when she passes away or the house is sold, otherwise the estate will be liable for the back gift taxes plus interest - a whole lot of money! A good tax attorney would be able to advise the OP if she is liable for any taxes on the gift or if she could avoid those by paying Mom back.

The OP also publicly acknowledges that the original agreement between daughter and mother was to be for life. Did mom hand over the money with the agreement that the arrangement would be for her life? What legal obligations does the OP have to her mother by changing the agreement now? There may be some compensation necessary for Mom to maintain a similar lifestyle. A lawyer would be able to best advise the OP.

The OP needs legal advice. No one can help her with her moral dilemma, that she owns.

Sorry this is so long......

DM paid for the addition of an in-law apartment on our home which included some additional living space for us as well.

The apartment and additional living space has contributed to the current value of the home She will be able to afford her rent for the new apartment, but it will drastically impact her standard of living-which will also make her very angry and resentful. I am willing to help her out with some expenses-but do I owe her more than that?? Any thoughts??