Wanting Riviera but not its resale restrictions

[Brian Noble]

I do think at this point that if Disney's lawyers had a leg to stand on, they wouldn't have given up as they did.

They have time...Disney's lawyers have historically been pretty creative. I suspect they will come up with something.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

They have time...Disney's lawyers have historically been pretty creative. I suspect they will come up with something.

Hmmmm - deja vu? Didn't we cover that "creative" legal team thing a couple of months ago? Those guys are long gone. lol

I don't think there's been anything in recent years to show they are now anything other than normal corporate lawyers who sometimes throw their weight around because of who they represent.

 

[Brian Noble]

I don't think there's been anything in recent years to show they are now anything other than normal corporate lawyers who sometimes throw their weight around because of who they represent.

I'd give them credit for RIV's unusual structure and the resulting (eventual) transition of DVC from a Wyndham/WorldMark-like model (where resales have full booking rights) to one more like Diamond's/Marriot's (where they don't), and doing it without inventing an entirely new and separate framework the way the latter two did. This allows a full incorporation of "old" inventory, something that was a real liability in the Marriott Club's early days.

From where I sit, the RIV solution was very clever, and I can't quite think of an analog in other timeshare systems. Maybe the closest was Wyndham's Presidential Reserve product, but while that's a separate "Club" that is backward compatible with all existing inventory (and not vice versa), resales retain the same booking rights.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I'd give them credit for RIV's unusual structure and the resulting (eventual) transition of DVC from a Wyndham/WorldMark-like model (where resales have full booking rights) to one more like Diamond's/Marriot's (where they don't), and doing it without inventing an entirely new and separate framework the way the latter two did. This allows a full incorporation of "old" inventory, something that was a real liability in the Marriott Club's early days.

From where I sit, the RIV solution was very clever, and I can't quite think of an analog in other timeshare systems. Maybe the closest was Wyndham's Presidential Reserve product, but while that's a separate "Club" that is backward compatible with all existing inventory (and not vice versa), resales retain the same booking rights.

Or it doesn't follow the POS but nobody has enough will to challenge the big Disney corp. I fall on the side that what they did wasn't allowable and that they just decided to do it anyway. That's not clever but something else indeed. They found nothing and instead the basis was to ignore something.

 

[Brian Noble]

Or it doesn't follow the POS

IANAL, so I can't say one way or the other on this. I am willing to assume that most of what they've done mostly complies--at least enough to survive the first round or two of judicial scruitiny, which is enough in most circumstances given the resources a challenger is likely to bring to bear.

The RIV structure may or may not be one of the exceptions. But the more time passes without someone challenging it, the more likely it's not.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

IANAL, so I can't say one way or the other on this. I am willing to assume that most of what they've done mostly complies--at least enough to survive the first round or two of judicial scruitiny, which is enough in most circumstances given the resources a challenger is likely to bring to bear.

The RIV structure may or may not be one of the exceptions. But the more time passes without someone challenging it, the more likely it's not.

There's just too many things recently to make that assumption anymore IMO. But they do have deep pockets. Of course I also don't particularly think it was in their best interested to do what they did anyway unless they do eventually start making money off of allow payments to make points qualified. They often leave the low hanging fruit though too.

 

[MBTigger]

I have said it before and will say it again. Riv is lovely and I would consider buy resale even WITH the restrictions, if only the point charts were less expensive.

The fact that Disney has a history of turning cash rooms into DVC shows their faith in the DVC system. I think they will simply start reselling BCV and BWV, perhaps giving current owners a nice discount for a new contract. If VGF goes well I can see a BRV refurb folded into CCV, which would be the "Discount" DVC property as it will have less than 30 years. Vero and HHI will be sold off, but the discounts for current owners at the new DVC properties would apply.

 

[chalee94]

I think technically it's more that they had the right to extend the land lease and thus OKW but they didn't have the right to place an assessment on owners to pay for it. Thus they had to get into the quit claim deeds when owners weren't lining up at the door to hand them a check.

Well, yeah. As Sandi said, when they extended the ground lease, they extended everyone. Charging for the extension is technically the problem.

Except couldn't the small group who never signed also outline the larger group that did sign did it under threat.

If a person says sign a contract or I will punch you that doesn't seem like it would hold up in court but maybe I wrong.

Also unlike someone saying they will punch you I suspect there are records of Disney trying to force people to sign the quit claim.

There was obviously no physical threat or duress. "You'd better sign or there will be legal consequences like a lien that keeps you from using your contract" wouldn't be considered "force."

They did throw in a cheap lithograph and a $30 credit against 2007 dues which was stated to be to cover "cost and time involved (paperwork will have to be notarized)...whether you accept the offer or not." Not sure if they would retroactively claim it was "consideration" for signing the quitclaim or not. (If you owned a 100 pt OKW contract and signed over your rights to the extension for $30, that is $0.30 per point...but if you wanted to pay to keep the extension, which you technically already owned, they would charge you $15 to $25 per pt... yay, capitalism...)

I'm not a lawyer either but I do have a more extensive background in contract law than most, and I'd bet those who refused to sign the quitclaim will get the extension for free while those who signed the quitclaim will be out of luck.

If I could go back...I'd tell myself to pick up some Tesla stock in the IPO...

It was a different Club back then. No differentiation between direct purchasers and 2nd class resale moochers. No Aulani dues scam. No multiple point chart inflation scams. I think most OKW owners acted in good faith and since we originally signed up for a 2042 end date, didn't care that much about whether we might have the right to keep the extension for free.

Based on my age and situation, I don't mind losing my contract in 2042 (just like I originally signed up for), even if I could have held on till 2057 had I been a little more saavy. But I'm still willing to bet that current BCV/BWV/BRV owners would be more willing to test the legality of a similar extension offer now.

 

[scoobdoo]

So bringing this full circle, is a resale contract at Aulani at $147/point for a 100 points fair in this market? The key strength I can see is that 200 points come on in August, so it’s a full carryover. On the other hand, until recently I saw discussions of Aulani trading in the low $100s….

 

[princesscinderella]

So bringing this full circle, is a resale contract at Aulani at $147/point for a 100 points fair in this market? The key strength I can see is that 200 points come on in August, so it’s a full carryover. On the other hand, until recently I saw discussions of Aulani trading in the low $100s….

No that’s not a good deal at aulani at all. I just saw a 100 contract list this week at $115 and was sold quickly, because it was priced right.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I would add that not only has the market spoken about AUL resale value, pretty clearly, even the direct value is questionable given that it has been on sale 10 years and is not considered sold out.

It's also a bit more work to sell if needed, due to Hawaii requirements. It ends up under Hawaii timeshare rules as well, which are considerably more involved than those of Florida.

Not sure what you mean when you refer to the market having spoken clearly about Aulani resale value. In the past several months it’s risen almost 40%.
It confuses me that everyone disparages this resort. Yes, it’s not sold out, but so what? The entire property in my opinion is stunning and for me represents the best of DVC. And direct points are quite useful for booking during busier times of year.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

RR resale restrictions don’t bother me as much as it’s MFs, which seem really high for a brand new resort. Skyliner maintenance will also probably contribute to rising MFs.

 

[scoobdoo]

Not sure what you mean when you refer to the market having spoken clearly about Aulani resale value. In the past several months it’s risen almost 40%.

Aulani has literally exploded in the last few months. It’s staggering to see.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Aulani has literally exploded in the last few months. It’s staggering to see.

I know! It is staggering. If demand has skyrocketed for resale, I’m sure demand for direct has gone up as well.

 

[drusba]

[


So buying Aulani direct (which seems to be a little cheaper per point?) would get you into Riveria but not within the 11-month booking window — is it tough to get into Riveria if you don’t have that 11-month home resort window?

Patterns at Riveria that have developed thus far indicate that it can be difficult to get any sized room at 7-months out during DVC's high demand season that runs late Sep to mid-Jan. During much of the rest of the year, Tower and standard view studios (and as a result lock-off 2BRs) are not available and, only once in a while, preferred view studios and lock-off 2BRs are also gone, while 1BRs, dedicated 2BRs , and GVs are most often open.

The issue with Riviera is that true patterns for during normal times have not had a fair chance to actually develop, since the limited life that Riviera has thus far had is during the covid time, and it is still far from sell-out.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

Patterns at Riveria that have developed thus far indicate that it can be difficult to get any sized room at 7-months out during DVC's high demand season that runs late Sep to mid-Jan. During much of the rest of the year, Tower and standard view studios (and as a result lock-off 2BRs) are not available and, only once in a while, preferred view studios and lock-off 2BRs are also gone, while 1BRs, dedicated 2BRs , and GVs are most often open.

The issue with Riviera is that true patterns for during normal times have not had a fair chance to actually develop, since the limited life that Riviera has thus far had is during the covid time, and it is still far from sell-out.

It’s interesting that October and the first two weeks of December has become one of the most popular periods because of the nice weather and low points chart. I wonder if Disney will adjust the points chart during those times to reflect the high demand. It seems the hardest time to book, even at the 11mo window is the first 2 weeks of December.

 

[Sandisw]

It’s interesting that October and the first two weeks of December has become one of the most popular periods because of the nice weather and low points chart. I wonder if Disney will adjust the points chart during those times to reflect the high demand. It seems the hardest time to book, even at the 11mo window is the first 2 weeks of December.

They have been in the process of doing this and the 2022 charts have October higher than in the past.

 

[Bearval]

They would have to close BRV, renovate and sell it as CCV2, similar to what they're doing at VGF, in order to do what you propose. That's a 26-year extension, but it still involves SELLING those extensions.

As does SELLING a new BCV and new BWV. And until those points sell, DVD is on the hook for the maintenance costs that those defunct resorts shared with the hotel side.

I'm not under the delusion that DVC will offer 25-26 year extensions on those resorts. But I don't think it works in their favor to close all 3 at once (no more dues-paying owners to cover maintenance costs), renovate all of them at one time (a large capital investment) and then place them all on the market to compete concurrently for buyers. It would make more sense to offer extensions at all but 1 resort, close that resort, renovate and begin sales. Then close a second resort, and repeat the process until all 2042 resorts have been repackaged and sold as new resorts with inflated points charts and contracts that no longer expire at the same time.

My best guess would be they will renovate and resell one at a time and rent the others out for cash until their turn to be renovate and resold comes up. I also feel both VB and HH will be sold off especially since they sold off the land next to VB that was for an expansion years ago. These off WDW properties don't generate the cash from people staying there like the WDW properties do.

 

[scoobdoo]

Coda: Just purchased 150 points direct at Riviera!

 

[HIRyeDVC]

Coda: Just purchased 150 points direct at Riviera!

Congrats! Wish I could buy a small contract there. Someone convince my wife! all i want is 75 points.