Trying to help a friend; can Disney force someone in a wheelchair to leave the chair or ECV in order to ride the attraction?

[Evita_W]

It would need a complete reconstruction to do that at WDW.
After guests get out of the boats at the unload area, the boats continue on thru an area that is just high enough for the boats to go thru to get back up to the loading area.
Maybe they could put in a larger elevator, but not easily since the one at the unload area is at an underground level compared to the ‘ground level’ of the park.
The exit dock would also need to be enlarged; it’s not that big.

My point is while it may cost a bit, it is doable.

It may not be practical at this point financially, but technically it is doable, so if Pirates were to go through a major enough update to trigger a reset in ADA rules, making it mo longer grandfathered in for example, they would have to do something like this, no matter the cost. Disneyland is having that issue right now with the entrance to Mickeys Toontown, adding Mickeys Runaway Railway means that the entrance is no longer grandfathered in and they have to come up with a way to make it comply with current ADA standards, which is quite costly and difficult, but they were told they had to make an entrance to toontowm that meets ADA standards or the ride won't be able to open and it is technically possible, just costly.

 

[SueM in MN]

My point is while it may cost a bit, it is doable.

It may not be practical at this point financially, but technically it is doable, so if Pirates were to go through a major enough update to trigger a reset in ADA rules, making it mo longer grandfathered in for example, they would have to do something like this, no matter the cost. Disneyland is having that issue right now with the entrance to Mickeys Toontown, adding Mickeys Runaway Railway means that the entrance is no longer grandfathered in and they have to come up with a way to make it comply with current ADA standards, which is quite costly and difficult, but they were told they had to make an entrance to toontowm that meets ADA standards or the ride won't be able to open and it is technically possible, just costly.

I disagree that it would be doable.
There are exceptions in the ADA to meeting requirements when making alterations are not technically feasible.
Chapter 2 -alterations
“Compliance in an alteration is not required where it is “technically infeasible.” The term is defined as “something that has little likelihood of being accomplished because existing structural conditions would require removing or altering a load-bearing member that is an essential part of the structural frame; or because other existing physical or site constraints prohibit modification or addition of elements, spaces, or features that are in full and strict compliance with the minimum requirements.”

Where technical infeasibility is encountered, compliance is still required to the maximum extent technically feasible.”

Connecting the load and unload area of Pirates so guests with wheelchairs can board at the unload area and ride thru to loading would involve reconstruction of load bearing members or existing physical structure or site constraints. There is a floor above the unload area and the area the boat goes thru to get from unload to load has an area too low for people riding in boats.

Cost is also a consideration in the ADA. Alterations don’t need to be made ‘no matter how much it costs’. There is a 20% cost cap.
ADA Cost cap for alterations
“The accessible path of travel is required to the extent that it is not “disproportionate” to the total cost. Regulations implementing the standards define “disproportionate” as exceeding 20% of the total cost of alterations to the primary function area. The 20% cap applies only to costs associated with the accessible path of travel, including an accessible route to the primary function area from site arrival points, entrances, and retrofits to restrooms, telephones, and drinking fountains.”

 

[OurBigTrip]

What I’m hearing is that Pirates is accessible, but not necessarily the way people would like it to be…is that a fair assessment?

 

[SueM in MN]

What I’m hearing is that Pirates is accessible, but not necessarily the way people would like it to be…is that a fair assessment?

I would agree with that.

The ADA doesn’t require alterations that are not feasible - for example, the Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse at WDW added a wheelchair accessible viewing area to see some of the ground level parts of the attraction. Doing that didn’t trigger other changes because it’s not technically feasible to add access to all levels of a Treehouse.
There are parts of WDW that can’t be made fully accessible because they were constructed in the early 1970s and 80s and alterations would require tearing apart large portions of the building/ride and total reconstrunction. Disneyland has even older attractions plus not enough room to work with.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

If that is the power wheelchair, I’m thinking of, it’s a lightweight folding power wheelchair, about 40 pounds, so no heavier to push than an average Manual wheelchair. I’m not sure of the reason for not using the motor, maybe to make sure it’s ready for the CM to push when you board??
View attachment 625503

A portable power wheelchair like that is a much different situation than one like the one my daughter has, which is over 400 pounds.
So, while they might be able to accommodate the first wheelchair, they are not likely to be able to accommodate the second.
View attachment 625504

My chair is a portable power chair in the same style as the Airhawk, weighs 46 pounds and folds to the size of a stroller. They still treat it as a scooter or large power chair, and from what CMs have told me that's how they're classified: anything with a motor is in one category, regardless of size, and anything without a motor is in the other category. Only non-motored things are allowed into certain areas.

I'm really surprised to hear that the Airhawk was allowed in but only pushed in freewheel mode; that implies that the concern isn't being able to move the chair from where guests board to where guests disembark, but rather people driving recklessly through narrow passageways.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

What I’m hearing is that Pirates is accessible, but not necessarily the way people would like it to be…is that a fair assessment?

Yes and no.

To be accessible, a person with a disability (specifically a person who uses a mobility device) must be able to enter and use the space in a way that is safe/manageable for them. To me, "accessible but not in the way people would like it to be" would be a ride where, instead of going through the main queue that's themed and part of the experience, you have to get escorted through a back hallway somewhere. Or you can board the attraction BUT have to sit in a specific section that isn't the one you want because that's where the accessible cars are. Anyone with a physical disability can still experience the attraction, but it's not the ideal experience you might choose if you didn't have the mobility aid. If you say that anyone who uses something other than a manual chair must change to the manual chair, then that ceases to be accessible for people whose needs are not met by a manual chair. Pirates is perfectly accessible to my friend with CP because he uses a 'regular' wheelchair; it's inaccessible to me (in my electric-powered chair) unless a CM feels generous and pushes me as I cannot use a manual chair. For someone who has trouble transferring multiple times in a short period, Pirates - and any other ride that requires transferring from personal chair to other-chair and then from other-chair to vehicle - is completely inaccessible. That makes it conditionally-accessible.

The next question becomes, whether that conditional accessibility is permitted or not.

Per the most current version of the ADA (post-2010 amendments), a wheelchair is a wheelchair whether manual, powered, or hybrid. And a wheelchair must be allowed in anywhere that a member of the public can go. "Other types" of mobility aids, which includes scooters and segways and non-wheelchair motorized devices, must be accommodated unless that particular type of device cannot be safely accommodated based on 5 factors. According to the DOJ, those factors must be evaluated based on the device itself, NOT based on stereotypes or assumptions about how a person might operate the device recklessly - in other words, you can't ban scooters from an area because some people don't know how to operate them very well.

So by dividing wheelchairs into manual (permitted) and electric (not permitted), they're not following the law regarding accessibility.

The other question is whether the law applies to Pirates or not. Technically the ADA applies as long as the building has been redone in any material way since 1990, and I don't know to what extent Pirates has been. I suspect it qualifies - and moreover, since the issue is one of policy rather than infrastructure (e.g. you can get there without using stairs, they just won't allow certain types of wheelchairs in there even if that wheelchair can maneuver through the queue), it would most likely be a violation of the law.

 

[SueM in MN]

My chair is a portable power chair in the same style as the Airhawk, weighs 46 pounds and folds to the size of a stroller. They still treat it as a scooter or large power chair, and from what CMs have told me that's how they're classified: anything with a motor is in one category, regardless of size, and anything without a motor is in the other category. Only non-motored things are allowed into certain areas.

I'm really surprised to hear that the Airhawk was allowed in but only pushed in freewheel mode; that implies that the concern isn't being able to move the chair from where guests board to where guests disembark, but rather people driving recklessly through narrow passageways.

That might be true for certain specific areas, but there are places/lines that ECVs are not allowed, but power wheelchairs are. So, it’s not as cut and dried as ‘anything with a motor is classed one way and anything without is another category’. It may be for Pirates, but not everything. There are also wheelchair accessible ride vehicles thst are power and manual wheelchair accessible, but not ECV accessible, so things with power are not classified in a different category than things without.

I don’t know why the other poster’s Airhawk was allowed in line as long as it was being pushed. I don’t know if there is something specific about the Pirates line that makes it inaccessible to power chairs. But, the passageways in Pirates are wider, less winding and generally less crowded than many where power wheelchairs and even ECVs are allowed.
So, I seriously doubt it‘s concern over reckless driving thru narrow passageways.

 

[SueM in MN]

Yes and no.

To be accessible, a person with a disability (specifically a person who uses a mobility device) must be able to enter and use the space in a way that is safe/manageable for them. To me, "accessible but not in the way people would like it to be" would be a ride where, instead of going through the main queue that's themed and part of the experience, you have to get escorted through a back hallway somewhere. Or you can board the attraction BUT have to sit in a specific section that isn't the one you want because that's where the accessible cars are. Anyone with a physical disability can still experience the attraction, but it's not the ideal experience you might choose if you didn't have the mobility aid. If you say that anyone who uses something other than a manual chair must change to the manual chair, then that ceases to be accessible for people whose needs are not met by a manual chair. Pirates is perfectly accessible to my friend with CP because he uses a 'regular' wheelchair; it's inaccessible to me (in my electric-powered chair) unless a CM feels generous and pushes me as I cannot use a manual chair. For someone who has trouble transferring multiple times in a short period, Pirates - and any other ride that requires transferring from personal chair to other-chair and then from other-chair to vehicle - is completely inaccessible. That makes it conditionally-accessible.

The next question becomes, whether that conditional accessibility is permitted or not.

Per the most current version of the ADA (post-2010 amendments), a wheelchair is a wheelchair whether manual, powered, or hybrid. And a wheelchair must be allowed in anywhere that a member of the public can go. "Other types" of mobility aids, which includes scooters and segways and non-wheelchair motorized devices, must be accommodated unless that particular type of device cannot be safely accommodated based on 5 factors. According to the DOJ, those factors must be evaluated based on the device itself, NOT based on stereotypes or assumptions about how a person might operate the device recklessly - in other words, you can't ban scooters from an area because some people don't know how to operate them very well.

So by dividing wheelchairs into manual (permitted) and electric (not permitted), they're not following the law regarding accessibility.

The other question is whether the law applies to Pirates or not. Technically the ADA applies as long as the building has been redone in any material way since 1990, and I don't know to what extent Pirates has been. I suspect it qualifies - and moreover, since the issue is one of policy rather than infrastructure (e.g. you can get there without using stairs, they just won't allow certain types of wheelchairs in there even if that wheelchair can maneuver through the queue), it would most likely be a violation of the law.

it is true that according to the law »A wheelchair must be allowed in anywhere that a member of the public can go » and « a wheelchair is a wheelchair »
assuming the area is accessible. For example, Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse and Tom Sawyer Island are both places where a member of the public can go. But, neither are wheelchair accessible.

The part of the Pirate queue from the entrance to boarding doesn’t have stairs. But, if it’s taken to that point, a CM has to take it back out again and get it to the unload area. That’s the unknown part. I don’t know the reason anyone was told they could not drive the power wheelchair in line, but just because they were not allowed doesn’t mean it’s a violation of law.
As I mentioned, at Pirates, they prefer guests to use an attraction wheelchair because that way they don‘t need to get a specific wheelchair to the exit in time for it to be there when the guest unloads; they just have to get a wheelchair there. Even though my daughter uses a manual wheelchair, needing to switch to an attraction wheelchair makes it inaccessible to her - their wheelchairs are too big for her, don’t have seatbelts and she can’t keep balanced.
The modification we‘ve been allowed to use her own wheelchair is to come back when a CM can be free to take her wheelchair directly to unload. Providing a CM to push a wheelchair for someone who doesn’t have anyone in their party who can push it is a similar (and legal) accommodation if for some reason it’s not accessible for that person’s wheelchair.