Rude Adult Children?
- Thread starter PeeWee70
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Wishing on a star
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
Wow.
Two things...
First, these things you are now describing in more detail are not only just 'not okay', but are like abusive.
Second, this does not sound like 'she really wouldn't have really cared'.
She cared, and felt entitled, for you to be there to meet her needs and convenience.
Not only did she feel entitled, but she felt angry that you didn't manage to ALWAYS put her first. Put her first and meet her convenience.
That tells me a lot.
I am very familiar with the, I am first, I am best, and others serve my convenience, or I will make them pay.
And the whole mode of operation, everything is an opportunity to make the other person feel like, since you are not me/perfect, you are just horrible and are never good enough.
I am the only thing that matters. You didn't matter. Your job didn't matter.
If she has seen you upset... Had that power over you... And then actually said "I don't even feel sorry for you." That is some serious mental stuff.
I am now thinking, just maybe, that there that she is dealing with some underlying neurological stuff.
As I said, I am not an expert. But, I am seeing a lot here that clearly points to some neurological personality stuff.
You might expect her to know/see that she has hurt you, and then feel terrible. THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. This is not the way her system works.
Do not continue to Feed the Beast.
And, as the one commercial says - "Never let them see you sweat."
There is huge, immense, power in being able to walk away.
Two things...
First, these things you are now describing in more detail are not only just 'not okay', but are like abusive.
Second, this does not sound like 'she really wouldn't have really cared'.
She cared, and felt entitled, for you to be there to meet her needs and convenience.
Not only did she feel entitled, but she felt angry that you didn't manage to ALWAYS put her first. Put her first and meet her convenience.
That tells me a lot.
I am very familiar with the, I am first, I am best, and others serve my convenience, or I will make them pay.
And the whole mode of operation, everything is an opportunity to make the other person feel like, since you are not me/perfect, you are just horrible and are never good enough.
I am the only thing that matters. You didn't matter. Your job didn't matter.
If she has seen you upset... Had that power over you... And then actually said "I don't even feel sorry for you." That is some serious mental stuff.
I am now thinking, just maybe, that there that she is dealing with some underlying neurological stuff.
As I said, I am not an expert. But, I am seeing a lot here that clearly points to some neurological personality stuff.
You might expect her to know/see that she has hurt you, and then feel terrible. THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. This is not the way her system works.
Do not continue to Feed the Beast.
And, as the one commercial says - "Never let them see you sweat."
There is huge, immense, power in being able to walk away.
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Where WOAS sees neurological problems, I see a mom who internalizes some typical teen behaviors and lets them have an outsized affect on her. I’m not saying that rude teen and adult behaviors are acceptable or that it doesn’t hurt when a love one is rude, but I think most of us who have teens, been around teens, or were a teen did on occasion lash out. My personal approach is to CALMLY call out the behavior, set the expectations for how we act, and then move on.
A 12 freaking out about missing a bus and then being annoyed when I went up to them during a game to apologize would not be a blip on my radar 14 years later. It would be a “hey calm down” in the moment and then a conversation when friends weren’t around about how sometimes things happen and you miss buses, then maybe that night I’d tell my husband Jane was a jerk today and we’d move on. The taking relatively minor attitudes to this extreme can really stress someone and their relationships.
A 12 freaking out about missing a bus and then being annoyed when I went up to them during a game to apologize would not be a blip on my radar 14 years later. It would be a “hey calm down” in the moment and then a conversation when friends weren’t around about how sometimes things happen and you miss buses, then maybe that night I’d tell my husband Jane was a jerk today and we’d move on. The taking relatively minor attitudes to this extreme can really stress someone and their relationships.
Wishing on a star
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
Yes, I will agree with both of those post above that the OP has internalized this, and has had a major effect.
And, I have mentioned that.
I hope that she is seeing that message!!!!
However. Just to clarify... we are talking about an independent and successful adult.
I have not made any assumptions or judgments based on one incident as a teen.
Not at all.
Any such assumption is very wrong and couldn't be farther from the truth.
Complete and total opposite.
We all know that teen girls can sometimes lash out, lose it, have fits... Of course!
I have made my comments despite that, not based on that.
I have actually wondered about how so many of the posts here seem to be focused on the petulant teen/child.
This goes way way way further than that.
I only asked about that after the OP mentioned it.
I only asked about that and gave it any consideration to have some basis and history.
And, yes sometimes that type if info can be important.
I am posting just from a lot of personal experience dealing with this type of situation/relationship.
I am posting because of all of what the OP has posted that seem to have been going on for over ten years.
I am posting because some of what the OP has posted goes well beyond a petulant teen. Also goes well beyond an Entitled Child.
Just from what I do know and have experienced, I am seeing some things that are much deeper than that.
And, I have mentioned that.
I hope that she is seeing that message!!!!
However. Just to clarify... we are talking about an independent and successful adult.
I have not made any assumptions or judgments based on one incident as a teen.
Not at all.
Any such assumption is very wrong and couldn't be farther from the truth.
Complete and total opposite.
We all know that teen girls can sometimes lash out, lose it, have fits... Of course!
I have made my comments despite that, not based on that.
I have actually wondered about how so many of the posts here seem to be focused on the petulant teen/child.
This goes way way way further than that.
I only asked about that after the OP mentioned it.
I only asked about that and gave it any consideration to have some basis and history.
And, yes sometimes that type if info can be important.
I am posting just from a lot of personal experience dealing with this type of situation/relationship.
I am posting because of all of what the OP has posted that seem to have been going on for over ten years.
I am posting because some of what the OP has posted goes well beyond a petulant teen. Also goes well beyond an Entitled Child.
Just from what I do know and have experienced, I am seeing some things that are much deeper than that.
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neverlandsky
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2017
cabanafrau
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 10, 2006
It's notable to me that mom is clinging hard onto "wounds" from the past, dad is unphased by the "behavior", mom talks about a wonderful relationship with the daughter whose personality is much like her own, mom's assessment of her own actions and behaviors is so favorable it's like we're getting them through an Instagram filter -- and yet every detail about the oldest daughter is given the harshest lighting.
All kinds of personalities aren't inherently compatible with or drawn to each other. It's very difficult when a parent and child don't have personalities that mesh easily. That difficulty is compounded, particularly on the child's end, when the parent and the other child(ren) relate easily to one another.
All kinds of personalities aren't inherently compatible with or drawn to each other. It's very difficult when a parent and child don't have personalities that mesh easily. That difficulty is compounded, particularly on the child's end, when the parent and the other child(ren) relate easily to one another.
SteveH
Where's my Mai Tai?
- Joined
- Sep 8, 1999
^^^ This!!! My youngest is now 21, for the past few years he had become very argumentative with me, not so much his mom, but even with her at times. It used to just baffle my mind. Finally I started doing exactly what you said, I'd tell him in no uncertain terms that the conversation was over as long as he was using that "tone of voice" or his choice if words. He never swore, I almost wish he had though. It's taken awhile but he catches himself now and stops, he knows I will get up and leave. Of course it was hard when we brought him home from college as his grades were not doing very well. The past year with him at home has really changed him, for the good. I will say that I had to get my wife fully on board with this, she had to stop placating and comforting him when he got upset. I was very worried his behavior would follow him into the work place or family life.
Very well stated, I would just add its not just young girls, its boys/young men too.
fortwildernessishome
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2010
Sorry that it has been so difficult. Sounds like a tough situation. I hope that you can get to a point of some peace. Best of luck to you.
design_mom
probably more like my dad than I care to admit
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2007
I wondered about anxiety, too.
My son had tendencies to rude to us (parents) and saying "you will not speak to me like that" only helped in the moment, it didn't seem to change behavior long-term. (Often, I think he'd just sulk/seethe that we'd cut him off.) And often, it seemed to come out of the blue. We finally ended up seeing a therapist who brought up anxiety. At first, I didn't see it -- he was a confident, successful kid. However, after a while I could. If he was stressed about Issue A, he would lash out about/hyperfocus on Issue B so he wouldn't have to deal with Issue A. Issue B was almost always directed at us, and was some sort of perceived shortcoming by us/perceived injustice to himself that we should have fixed/prevented.
My son has developed some coping strategies to help him manage Issue A before Issue B becomes involved. He has gotten MUCH better about it. It also helped us see what was going on so we could respond more objectively to him when he starts hyperfocusing on Issue B. It's easier to keep emotion out of it when you realize it's not personal. And, when he starts in on something now, we can say "I can tell you're really upset, but what's the REAL issue here. Let's talk about it." Sometimes he doesn't realize how much Issue A is affecting him, until he "takes it out" on Issue B. He's getting better at recognizing it, but sometimes there are still slip ups. It's somewhat easier now to get him to stop "spiraling" and figure out what's really bothering him so he can address that.
As an example: One of the most recent "outbursts" involved a 2nd semester elective class. When he signed up for it (last year), I told him I was surprised he was interested in that class becasue the subject wasn't something that I'd heard about him being interested in. But he said he wanted to take it, so... OK. In January, a week or so into the semester, he announced that he hated the class. The only reason he took it was because I "made him." I reminded him that I had *not* made him, and he replied that he only signed up for it because he knew I'd make him take SOMETHING-- and he knew I wouldn't let him do an extra study hall or early release, even though he didn't need the elective credit for graduation requirements. He may have been right -- I may have recommended taking something -- but we never even discussed it. I approved the schedule he said he wanted. And, by the time of this outburst, it was too late to withdraw from the class, so it was a moot point anyway.
I was able to talk through it with him and find the real issue. Turns out, it was about his AP Physics class. He was doing reasonably well, but he had recently found out that his teacher's students last year did not have a high pass-rate on the AP Exam, even the ones who'd done well in the class. (To earn college credit for the class, you have to pass the end-of-year national AP exam.) In his mind, he was worried about passing [Issue A] > decided if he had more time to focus on it, maybe he'd do better > he thought "Maybe I shouldn't have taken the elective"... and he refocused to Issue B! We were able to discuss possible solutions and that even the "worst case scenario" (not earning college credit for the class) was NOT the end of the world. Things have been better since then. The AP exam is next week, and he's still not sure how he'll do, but we'll get through it. I *wish* he could have recognized this in himself before it came to being rude to anybody -- it's still a work in progress, but it is a LOT less frequent than it used to be.
I am very glad that we got him into counseling when we did and didn't just chalk it up to "angsty teenager" (and I'll be honest, I wasn't really sure... but life was getting pretty miserable for all of us.) I am sure it will be harder with the OP's daughter since she's an adult and may not see it in herself. I do think sometimes successful, driven people are anxious because they feel like they have to keep being successful... every time, with everything. That can be very stressful... but there are definitely healthier way to handle it than being rude to the people who love you.
My son had tendencies to rude to us (parents) and saying "you will not speak to me like that" only helped in the moment, it didn't seem to change behavior long-term. (Often, I think he'd just sulk/seethe that we'd cut him off.) And often, it seemed to come out of the blue. We finally ended up seeing a therapist who brought up anxiety. At first, I didn't see it -- he was a confident, successful kid. However, after a while I could. If he was stressed about Issue A, he would lash out about/hyperfocus on Issue B so he wouldn't have to deal with Issue A. Issue B was almost always directed at us, and was some sort of perceived shortcoming by us/perceived injustice to himself that we should have fixed/prevented.
My son has developed some coping strategies to help him manage Issue A before Issue B becomes involved. He has gotten MUCH better about it. It also helped us see what was going on so we could respond more objectively to him when he starts hyperfocusing on Issue B. It's easier to keep emotion out of it when you realize it's not personal. And, when he starts in on something now, we can say "I can tell you're really upset, but what's the REAL issue here. Let's talk about it." Sometimes he doesn't realize how much Issue A is affecting him, until he "takes it out" on Issue B. He's getting better at recognizing it, but sometimes there are still slip ups. It's somewhat easier now to get him to stop "spiraling" and figure out what's really bothering him so he can address that.
As an example: One of the most recent "outbursts" involved a 2nd semester elective class. When he signed up for it (last year), I told him I was surprised he was interested in that class becasue the subject wasn't something that I'd heard about him being interested in. But he said he wanted to take it, so... OK. In January, a week or so into the semester, he announced that he hated the class. The only reason he took it was because I "made him." I reminded him that I had *not* made him, and he replied that he only signed up for it because he knew I'd make him take SOMETHING-- and he knew I wouldn't let him do an extra study hall or early release, even though he didn't need the elective credit for graduation requirements. He may have been right -- I may have recommended taking something -- but we never even discussed it. I approved the schedule he said he wanted. And, by the time of this outburst, it was too late to withdraw from the class, so it was a moot point anyway.
I was able to talk through it with him and find the real issue. Turns out, it was about his AP Physics class. He was doing reasonably well, but he had recently found out that his teacher's students last year did not have a high pass-rate on the AP Exam, even the ones who'd done well in the class. (To earn college credit for the class, you have to pass the end-of-year national AP exam.) In his mind, he was worried about passing [Issue A] > decided if he had more time to focus on it, maybe he'd do better > he thought "Maybe I shouldn't have taken the elective"... and he refocused to Issue B! We were able to discuss possible solutions and that even the "worst case scenario" (not earning college credit for the class) was NOT the end of the world. Things have been better since then. The AP exam is next week, and he's still not sure how he'll do, but we'll get through it. I *wish* he could have recognized this in himself before it came to being rude to anybody -- it's still a work in progress, but it is a LOT less frequent than it used to be.
I am very glad that we got him into counseling when we did and didn't just chalk it up to "angsty teenager" (and I'll be honest, I wasn't really sure... but life was getting pretty miserable for all of us.) I am sure it will be harder with the OP's daughter since she's an adult and may not see it in herself. I do think sometimes successful, driven people are anxious because they feel like they have to keep being successful... every time, with everything. That can be very stressful... but there are definitely healthier way to handle it than being rude to the people who love you.
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Mackenzie Click-Mickelson
Chugging along the path of life
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2015
Counseling only works when the person is open and ready for it.
My sister and I went to counseling a few times: right after our parents divorced, me later on in middle school and for my sister when she was in high school. The problem was it was forced for my sister and she lied to the counselor the whole time. She got zero actual help from it. My sister was quite like the OP's daughter. She was described as an elitist by her peers, she focused a lot on her accomplishments and looked down upon those who weren't 'up to her level', she would make comments regarding my mom not having gone to college, etc. Years later she was diagnosed with clinical depression. I wholeheartedly am for counseling but it won't do any good if the person isn't ready for it. Based on what the OP is describing I'm not sure the daughter is ready for it even though she's a full-fledged adult (and it should be her choice). Even when she was a teenager she may not have been ready for it. But it is something to keep in mind.
*Note I'm not saying the OP's daughter has clinical depression--that is something that is diagnosed with multiple factors; I'm just relaying what ended up with my sister.
Mackenzie Click-Mickelson
Chugging along the path of life
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2015
I picked up on that as well. We all look back on things with a filter, myself included.
My mom's version of the issues that went on with her and my sister are of a different light than I saw. I think my mom was/is a good mother who tried her best..that did not mean she was perfect, that she handled every situation in the correct way, that she didn't actually create some of the issues she had with my sister (and actually me as well). If the OP is anything like my mom she'll hold on to the comments her daughter made for quite a while and then eventually it won't be as important to focus on something that happened so long ago. I know how hard it can be. I sat there for years watching my mom. But I did let my mom know when the time was right her version wasn't exactly how it went down (note that I'm just using my personal experience).
cabanafrau
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 10, 2006
On page one you knew the signs and she displayed none. On page four based on comments of strangers you're fairly convinced she's suffering from anxiety based on speculation from strangers who've never met her?
Meanwhile you have consistently mentioned her success with a stinging note of bitterness.
cabanafrau
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 10, 2006
That's because we can look back at events and our actions/inactions and factor in our own good intentions, what we wanted in our hearts to happen versus what we actually did or did not do. We recognize that the outcome doesn't really reflect what we truly desired to happen. Many times we have little to no clue what someone else's good intentions were -- only see that they did something we view as wrong/with ill intent, or view their expressions of regret or apology through a lens that reflects they didn't really care, didn't really make an effort, etc.
Recognizing our own natural biases is important in our understanding of and relationships to others.
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