Haunted Mansion change alt cue line

[livndisney]

LilMsPrincess...By reading your post one would think that by me telling the CM's about my vision problem would be a large clue to the that I needed assistance,yet my last encounter ended up with the CM getting nasty, insisting I reenter the dark loading are after skipping the stretching room & her basically getting her manager. The manager did no start off very accommadating either. I am sorry to disagree with you, but what you have described is not what I experienced. Why must my low vision disability be questioned about that causing me to not see well in the dark, yet wheelchairs are not questioned about anything. I don't want to sound nasty but will it be better for Disney to have me go thru the dimly lit area & fall? When they had the ADA, were they only there for certain disabilites? I can bet they weren't checking the lighting for low vision.

The ADA covers a variety of disablities, however many places tend to think just because a wheelchair fits they are meeting the ADA. Those that live with other disabilities know this is not the case.

WDW is slowly starting to figure out there are other needs.

I have to agree, I would not expect the HM to change the lighting as this would change the attraction. However, WDW still has to make reasonable efforts to meet your need. In this case they could have provided an escort. And they should not have questioned you as that can be a violation of the ADA.

 

[akayek31]

I am sorry this happened to you. I had the GAC card in September and never had an issue with it. I didn't go on HM though. I am going back in February and now am worried about how I will get on the ride. I have the Alt entrance due to my knees and another issue. I don't remember how far the que is but I know it is hard for me to walk long distances. I may just have to skip HM. Happy belated birthday!

 

[SueM in MN]

I am sorry this happened to you. I had the GAC card in September and never had an issue with it. I didn't go on HM though. I am going back in February and now am worried about how I will get on the ride. I have the Alt entrance due to my knees and another issue. I don't remember how far the que is but I know it is hard for me to walk long distances. I may just have to skip HM. Happy belated birthday!

If you have a wheelchair or ECV, you won't have a problem. GACs don't normally change the distance walked much and you will have a period of standing ( they load one room, that show goes on, that room empties and the next group of guests is shown in). After the stretching room, we were waiting at the door to the loading area with DD's wheelchair for at least 5 minutes.

 

[SueM in MN]

The ADA covers a variety of disablities, however many places tend to think just because a wheelchair fits they are meeting the ADA. Those that live with other disabilities know this is not the case.

WDW is slowly starting to figure out there are other needs.

I have to agree, I would not expect the HM to change the lighting as this would change the attraction. However, WDW still has to make reasonable efforts to meet your need. In this case they could have provided an escort. And they should not have questioned you as that can be a violation of the ADA.

There are specific guidelines for ADA accessibility that need to be met.
They tend to be pretty black and white and for things that can be easily measured. For example, there are very specific guidelines to the inch measure for how wide walkways are, how steep a path can be, distance needed around a ride car for boarding. For wheelchair accessible ride cars, there are other measurements.
There are similar guidelines that have to do with low vision - one example is how far things can protrude from a wall and where the protrusions can be. There are also guidelines for things like what needs Braille signs and exactly where they need to be located ( by height). The low vision stuff tends to be very black and white and more aimed toward people who are blind.

So, places renovate to meet the ADA guidelines, but there is a lot of gray areas that are not covered in the guidelines. That is what gets worked out later. It's not that they don't want to do what will help, but they don't usually know until there is some real life experience. and, if no one says what doesn't work, they assume everything is working fine.

I would encourage anyone who has problems with how things work to contact WDW. Not to complain or threaten, but to educate -
This part did not work for me.
This is why it did not work for me.
What would make it better.
What parts of the experience worked well and what about them was helpful.

And keep in mind that what one person would find perfect for their situation would not work at all for someone else. A very concrete example is bathrooms. Someone who needs to transfer from their wheelchair to the toilet may find it easier to transfer if the toilet is always on their left because of how their disability affects them. So, they would find it perfect if all toilets we set up that way. But, that leaves out the people who really do better with toilet on the right or need a space big enough to park their wheelchair right in front of the toilet. So, even with a small thing like bathrooms, what is best is not cut and dried.

In the case of HM, they can't really increase the light much without affecting the stretching room experience. They could make the lighting in the load area and the waiting area for those who need to use the alternate boarding area the same as it is at the unload area. If you go to DL Paris, the load area is the same light level as the unload area. They put some things to see in there, so it's not just a black room. That makes boarding much easier.

 

[livndisney]

There are specific guidelines for ADA accessibility that need to be met.
They tend to be pretty black and white and for things that can be easily measured. For example, there are very specific guidelines to the inch measure for how wide walkways are, how steep a path can be, distance needed around a ride car for boarding. For wheelchair accessible ride cars, there are other measurements.
There are similar guidelines that have to do with low vision - one example is how far things can protrude from a wall and where the protrusions can be. There are also guidelines for things like what needs Braille signs and exactly where they need to be located ( by height). The low vision stuff tends to be very black and white and more aimed toward people who are blind.

So, places renovate to meet the ADA guidelines, but there is a lot of gray areas that are not covered in the guidelines. That is what gets worked out later. It's not that they don't want to do what will help, but they don't usually know until there is some real life experience. and, if no one says what doesn't work, they assume everything is working fine.

I would encourage anyone who has problems with how things work to contact WDW. Not to complain or threaten, but to educate -
This part did not work for me.
This is why it did not work for me.
What would make it better.
What parts of the experience worked well and what about them was helpful.

And keep in mind that what one person would find perfect for their situation would not work at all for someone else. A very concrete example is bathrooms. Someone who needs to transfer from their wheelchair to the toilet may find it easier to transfer if the toilet is always on their left because of how their disability affects them. So, they would find it perfect if all toilets we set up that way. But, that leaves out the people who really do better with toilet on the right or need a space big enough to park their wheelchair right in front of the toilet. So, even with a small thing like bathrooms, what is best is not cut and dried.

In the case of HM, they can't really increase the light much without affecting the stretching room experience. They could make the lighting in the load area and the waiting area for those who need to use the alternate boarding area the same as it is at the unload area. If you go to DL Paris, the load area is the same light level as the unload area. They put some things to see in there, so it's not just a black room. That makes boarding much easier.

What Sue said! (You clarified my point better than I could LOL).

 

[A Mickeyfan]

they could also have kept it as your GAC states "guests can use alternative attraction entrance where available." There is a reason it is on the card & when explained to the CM (even though one should not have to each time), they should allow you. There is one available, the wheelchairs use it. While they cannot change the lighting for those with low vision, they must either provide a guide or an alternate "lit" entrance for the guest, as per the ADA, of which Disney is not doing. That is not a gray area,that is black & white. In this case, it is black.......dark black to where you cannot see. I went to the MK today and did not even want to deal with going into the HM. Is it fair, no, but until they get things straight, I am not going to fall in the room to prove to them they are wrong

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Unless the guest asks for additional assistance or information regarding their disability at the attraction, we have no idea why they possess a GAC. It is true that many guests with GACs do not have visible needs, but some do. Since I do not work at Guest Relations, I have no idea what the process for issuing a GAC is, I only know how to direct guests at the attraction once the GAC is in their possession. For the Haunted Mansion, GACs that have a standard wheelchair entrance stamp use the standby line at all times since it is wheelchair accessible, as do strollers with wheelchair tags. GACs that have an alternate entrance stamp or a green light stamp enter the queue in a different location and are then merged into the standby queue. GACs with a shaded waiting area stamp are handled slightly differently depending on how much of the extended queue is being utilized. The other stamps (front row, no stairs, etc.) are not applicable.

So where do these alternative attraction stamps enter now? That is one of the stamps I have, and I have been directed to the very beginning of the regular cue, "standby" as you call it. That is fine with me, I can see outside, it is once we get in. Before this change, I entered on the side @ went to the unloading dock.

 

[I Love Pluto]

I think this thread is getting a bit "carried away".

There are so many variations of medical problems that are met/not met at many places - for example - even some physicians' offices and churches are not free of outside stairs to enter their building.

Lighting, ability to walk, hearing difficulties - these are only the tip of the iceberg. Disney is trying its best to help everyone.

If we want to "pick on" Disney - then we will find things WRONG.
If we want to "enjoy" Disney - then we will find things RIGHT.

I live in a community with a lot of older people. When I go to the Acme or to WalMart - all of the HC spaces are taken. I cannot go inside the Acme and scream at the manager because HE DIDN'T SAVE A SPACE FOR ME. The spaces ARE provided, they just couldn't accommodate ME that day. I parked in a regular spot.

This is the same with Disney - sometimes things will "fit" us, sometimes they won't. We'll all be fine if we calmly address any issues that we feel are harmful to us.

Have a great day!

 

[Emagine]

Oh this scares me a little. We too use the Alt Entrance Gac and have a Service Dog attending the next trip with us. Both of my kids are Autistic with other issues. One of them melts and I mean out and out melts to the sight of 'the room' but oddly enough loves the ride. He likes the hitchhikers lol.

I can just imagine going through a line, melt pending and entering the room. Rather we get to exit or not I can clearly see it would be poking the puppy so to speak.

Hope they keep it as it was in early Nov. We went through the exit and were fine.

 

[pbrim]

Disney is trying its best to help everyone.

If we want to "pick on" Disney - then we will find things WRONG.
If we want to "enjoy" Disney - then we will find things RIGHT.

Except this is not a case of Disney trying their best to accomodate, or accomodations being made but not not just available at this exact moment. This is a case of a CM actively refusing to make any accomodation. Moreover, the CM is accusing the guest of abusing the rules, and cheating to skip the line.

Where there are problems, they will not be made any better by ignoring them. (Nor will they be made any better by getting beligerent or angry.) But it seems to me most of the people here are trying to calmly educate Disney about the different types of accomodation needed. And it's not like we are asking for the moon -- by ADA reasonable accomodations are our legal right. It's not like they are asking Disney to completely re-work the attraction (although it would have been nice to have this kind of thing included in recent renovations). All they really need to do is provide an escort through the problem areas when required. We are not talking about thousands of low-vision people per day here.

 

[disney david]

Oh this scares me a little. We too use the Alt Entrance Gac and have a Service Dog attending the next trip with us. Both of my kids are Autistic with other issues. One of them melts and I mean out and out melts to the sight of 'the room' but oddly enough loves the ride. He likes the hitchhikers lol.

I can just imagine going through a line, melt pending and entering the room. Rather we get to exit or not I can clearly see it would be poking the puppy so to speak.

Hope they keep it as it was in early Nov. We went through the exit and were fine.

They changed the hitch hiking ghost i wont ruin it for you but it really cool now.

 

[SueM in MN]

they could also have kept it as your GAC states "guests can use alternative attraction entrance where available." There is a reason it is on the card & when explained to the CM (even though one should not have to each time), they should allow you. There is one available, the wheelchairs use it. While they cannot change the lighting for those with low vision, they must either provide a guide or an alternate "lit" entrance for the guest, as per the ADA, of which Disney is not doing. That is not a gray area,that is black & white. In this case, it is black.......dark black to where you cannot see. I went to the MK today and did not even want to deal with going into the HM. Is it fair, no, but until they get things straight, I am not going to fall in the room to prove to them they are wrong

Most guests with wheelchairs are using the 'dark' area, not the way that used to be the wheelchair entrance before renovating (going thru a door in the stretching room or the room before the stretching room to the exit for boarding. Not going to the exit from the hearse area as was previously done.

Guests with wheelchairs can't be routed to the usual boarding area because it is not wheelchair accessible. They need to board at the unload area so the wheelchair or ECV will be at the exit when they get off. That is why they are 'automatically' routed in one way and guests who can walk may be touted a different way).

The gray area is not that accommodation needs to given, it's how it is given. People need to contact Disney and explain what is not working for their needs. The ride CMs and managers have to work within the barriers of the guidelines they were given. They are not at the level where they can change things.
It may seem very black and white to 'provide a lighted area or an escort'.

The gray areas are things like:
where the person who needs assistance waits,
what the conditions in the wait area are
how long the wait can be,
how is it determined someone needs an escort,
how a CM is notified of the need for an escort,
which position is the 'designated escort' - and how are they freed up
where is the person escorted to and is there a wait in that area
what are the conditions in that wait area
If the person is brought into the line, where and how

Some of those may have looked easy or not been considered enough when the new queue was opened. The things they set up may have looked like they worked on paper, but don't work well in real life.
It's all those things that get figured out later.
It happened in Pirates after it reopened after renovation. They actually brought some people's personal wheelchairs into line and then could not get it back to the unload area in time for the person to get off.
It happened in Small World when they renovated and were planning for all guests with special needs to enter one way with the rest of the guests. They actually closed the attraction again and redid the whole loading entrance/exit.
So things do get changed later as they get feedback on what the problems are.

It could be that what is really needed is a different stamp that explains needs better for people with low vision in darker areas. Alternate entry does not mean one specific thing and doesn't tell what type of entry the person needs.
The expectation is that the guest will ask for what they need, but WDW could do a better job of explaining what the access into an attraction is. They have nothing that says anything about lighting conditions, or even things like which attractions have moving walkways (which is why I started the disABILITIES FAQs thread in the first place.)

Saying 'low vision' may mean very different things to different people. One person may have sight, but see things only very close to them and not have much trouble with the dark. Someone else may have a lot of difficulty with transitions from light to dark, but be OK in dim light. Someone else may not be able to see at all in dim light and really can't go out at night.
And a CM who is working inside HM doesn't realize how dark it is in there because their eyes have gotten accustomed to the lighting. So, maybe some better education for CMs to explain that may be helpful.
(I am always amazed how bright it looks in all the areas of HM at night. I know they don't change the lighting. The difference is that my eyes are used to the darkness outside so, it looks relatively bright inside.)

 

[jmartinez1895]

I sent an email with my concerns about the "new" way of loading in this ride. I got a phone call this morning ( I did not catch her name because I was still asleep when she called). She did say that she was a coordinator for MK ADA enforcement. She wanted to make a note of how the procedure would not work for our child. She said that this topic is on the agenda to be discussed at a meeting that is coming up. She told me that we need to inform the first CM at the attraction of vision issues and how we could best be accommodated. She of course said that there is not a guarantee that they can do what ever it is we suggest, but it should give them an idea on what we need. If they suggest something different and it does not work for us then she said she wants us to go to GS and let them know what did not work and what we think may have be done to help us better. She said the only was they can know something does not work is if people tell them, which I think many of you already have.

 

[I Love Pluto]

In my own defense - I did not say to ignore the problem. I was pointing out that patience is a true virtue.

Yes, report the problem. But - remember that issues need time to get changed to a favorable outcome.

The CM was wrong. Report that. But - don't feel that Disney is out to "get you". They are trying just like everyone else.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Most guests with wheelchairs are using the 'dark' area, not the way that used to be the wheelchair entrance before renovating (going thru a door in the stretching room or the room before the stretching room to the exit for boarding. Not going to the exit from the hearse area as was previously done.

Guests with wheelchairs can't be routed to the usual boarding area because it is not wheelchair accessible. They need to board at the unload area so the wheelchair or ECV will be at the exit when they get off. That is why they are 'automatically' routed in one way and guests who can walk may be touted a different way).

The gray area is not that accommodation needs to given, it's how it is given. People need to contact Disney and explain what is not working for their needs. The ride CMs and managers have to work within the barriers of the guidelines they were given. They are not at the level where they can change things.
It may seem very black and white to 'provide a lighted area or an escort'.

The gray areas are things like:
where the person who needs assistance waits,
what the conditions in the wait area are
how long the wait can be,
how is it determined someone needs an escort,
how a CM is notified of the need for an escort,
which position is the 'designated escort' - and how are they freed up
where is the person escorted to and is there a wait in that area
what are the conditions in that wait area
If the person is brought into the line, where and how

Some of those may have looked easy or not been considered enough when the new queue was opened. The things they set up may have looked like they worked on paper, but don't work well in real life.
It's all those things that get figured out later.
It happened in Pirates after it reopened after renovation. They actually brought some people's personal wheelchairs into line and then could not get it back to the unload area in time for the person to get off.
It happened in Small World when they renovated and were planning for all guests with special needs to enter one way with the rest of the guests. They actually closed the attraction again and redid the whole loading entrance/exit.
So things do get changed later as they get feedback on what the problems are.

It could be that what is really needed is a different stamp that explains needs better for people with low vision in darker areas. Alternate entry does not mean one specific thing and doesn't tell what type of entry the person needs.
The expectation is that the guest will ask for what they need, but WDW could do a better job of explaining what the access into an attraction is. They have nothing that says anything about lighting conditions, or even things like which attractions have moving walkways (which is why I started the disABILITIES FAQs thread in the first place.)

Saying 'low vision' may mean very different things to different people. One person may have sight, but see things only very close to them and not have much trouble with the dark. Someone else may have a lot of difficulty with transitions from light to dark, but be OK in dim light. Someone else may not be able to see at all in dim light and really can't go out at night.
And a CM who is working inside HM doesn't realize how dark it is in there because their eyes have gotten accustomed to the lighting. So, maybe some better education for CMs to explain that may be helpful.
(I am always amazed how bright it looks in all the areas of HM at night. I know they don't change the lighting. The difference is that my eyes are used to the darkness outside so, it looks relatively bright inside.)

I know that all go through the holding area now.. ... trust me, I am "seeing" it. I have fallen over a person in a wheelchair at the Ellen ride in Epcot due to it being dark and no coordination in there. You walk in, people are where ever they want to be. My eyes do not adjust. I walked in. I look ahead to where the screen is because that is where "light" is. I don't see what is under me persay. It is dark everywhere to me. I fell right on someone in a wheelchair. It could very well easily have been a small child too.. if it isn't eye level directly in front of me or to the light, I am not going to see it. I have tried looking "down" and I have walked into people. It just doesn't work in the dark for me.

I have explained to the CM's at the HM. What I don't get is the come backs they have for me.. like "well the ride is dark" no duhh.. but I am not walking while I am ON the ride. Or this one.. "the loading and unloading area have the same lighting".. duhh.. again.. yes they do, but I have to get there don't I. I do tell them what is not working for me, but at the actual attraction it doesn't seem to matter. I must have someone over them to "approve" me to do it the way the wheelchairs go. I can solve this by renting a wheelchair when I go since they don't bother to ask why you need one as long as they get their money. Do I sound bitter, I sure do and I am. Not to those who need a wheelchair, don't get me wrong, but to those at the attraction.

Yes, low vision does mean different things, but low vision does mean that one has "reduced vision" period, just to a different extend for a different reason. Just as one in a wheelchair has mobility issues, but to what extend & what reason. Not all in them are bound to that chair, but they all have "mobility" issues. Low vision all have " reduced vision" issues.. vision is sight, sight means seeing. That should be something that is expressed to the CM's, it is by the ADA. You do know a lot about the ADA, and I am sure you are up on what the ADA expects for low vision (what ever the extent or reason). If not, I will be happy to copy & paste it here.
Yes, I agree, they could be in need of a "low vision" stamp, as they do not have one. I did ask

 

[A Mickeyfan]

In my own defense - I did not say to ignore the problem. I was pointing out that patience is a true virtue.

Yes, report the problem. But - remember that issues need time to get changed to a favorable outcome.

The CM was wrong. Report that. But - don't feel that Disney is out to "get you". They are trying just like everyone else.

not sure where you are getting the feeling that anyone said Disney was out to get anyone Disney just seemed to forget about all the others except those in with mobility issues when they revamped their cue, that's all.. The CM's are the main problem over at the HM, doesn't seem they understand that there are other reasons guests may need to load in the unloading area because they were told only wheelchairs can. So that is "all" they will load there, no matter what you seem to explain to them. They get rather "upset" with you and demand that you enter an unsafe area and tell you it is for "your safety" They took away a safe loading area for one, and gave an unsafe.. then tell you it is for your safety.. This has nothing to do with stores and doctor's offices not being in compliance with ADA standards for every disability.

It is sort of hard to enjoy yourself if you are afraid you are going to fall. Yes, we do want to go and enjoy Disney, but what fun is it when you cannot enter attractions that you were once able to or falling over someone in the dark That isn't fun, I have already fallen.. and it's not fun at all, for me or the guest I fell on....

 

[clm10308]

To the OP,
I think it is terrible that you were treated so poorly. Even if the CM could not meet your needs, there was no reason for such rude treatment.

Sort of off topic, and i hope i am not overstepping, but After reading all your post describing your vision issues, has anyone ever suggested that you get Orientation and Mobility training in using a white cane? You can contact the Commission for the Blind in your state for assistance.

 

[jbcl]

I think this thread is getting a bit "carried away".

There are so many variations of medical problems that are met/not met at many places - for example - even some physicians' offices and churches are not free of outside stairs to enter their building.

Lighting, ability to walk, hearing difficulties - these are only the tip of the iceberg. Disney is trying its best to help everyone.

If we want to "pick on" Disney - then we will find things WRONG.
If we want to "enjoy" Disney - then we will find things RIGHT.

I live in a community with a lot of older people. When I go to the Acme or to WalMart - all of the HC spaces are taken. I cannot go inside the Acme and scream at the manager because HE DIDN'T SAVE A SPACE FOR ME. The spaces ARE provided, they just couldn't accommodate ME that day. I parked in a regular spot.

This is the same with Disney - sometimes things will "fit" us, sometimes they won't. We'll all be fine if we calmly address any issues that we feel are harmful to us.

Have a great day!

Disabilities cover such a wide number of problems. To me it's not about what the problem is but how to ensure the safety and comfort for visitors.
Awareness is the biggest stumbling block in many cases.
In this case it sounds to me like safety wasn't made available when with a little listening to the true nature of the problem it could easily have been.

I highlighted that paragraph, too me that shows the problem. One solution doesn't fit all. You were able to use a normal space, many don't have that choice as they can't use normal spaces for one reason or another. It is always worth reporting to management so they have a chance to recognise a problem and decide if they can resolve it in future, if not for you then for the next person.
I do agree that the right attitide can take you so far with an issue but it's not always enough.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

To the OP,
I think it is terrible that you were treated so poorly. Even if the CM could not meet your needs, there was no reason for such rude treatment.

Sort of off topic, and i hope i am not overstepping, but After reading all your post describing your vision issues, has anyone ever suggested that you get Orientation and Mobility training in using a white cane? You can contact the Commission for the Blind in your state for assistance.

This only happens in dark or dimly lit areas.. not in bright light.. I don't drive at night... but that is about it. When I in bright light, my eyes are ok. Yes, I wear my glasses to read, but that is it. Put me in the dark and I am a different person totally. and no, you are not over stepping your bounds........ a friend of mine did tell me to get the cane for when I do the parks, mainly so the CM's can "see" that I may need some help if they don't understand my GAC.

 

[SueM in MN]

This only happens in dark or dimly lit areas.. not in bright light.. I don't drive at night... but that is about it. When I in bright light, my eyes are ok. Yes, I wear my glasses to read, but that is it. Put me in the dark and I am a different person totally. and no, you are not over stepping your bounds........ a friend of mine did tell me to get the cane for when I do the parks, mainly so the CM's can "see" that I may need some help if they don't understand my GAC.

A cane would probably help so they can ‘see' you.

Another hint that might help would be to say that you need to board at the unload area, which is where guests with wheelchairs and mobility devices are sent for loading.
The path from the stretching room to the waiting area for that loading area is just as dark as walking in the regular way to the regular boarding area. This may be one reason that CMs are just not getting why you are saying the way they are sending you is not appropriate/safe.

Because the guests with wheelchairs are going a way that is considered backstage, there is a CM accompanying them out of the stretching room, into a holding area and then into the boarding area. They are very careful about that because they don’t want anyone wandering into the unload area without a CM.

People without wheelchairs do board at the unload area for a number of reasons - sometimes it is because the person is not steady to walk on the moving walkway and need to board in a place where it can be slowed or stopped.