DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[New Mouse]

COVID?? A very large percentage of DVC owners are hesitant to travel. I bet the availability will be good in 2022 as well because of this.

Correct, so what availability issue are they tring to improve?

 

[cm8]

Correct, so what availability issue are they tring to improve?

The absolute ability to increase profit through use of breakage? Would that not be like guaranteed Income for x amount of years?

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Correct, so what availability issue are they tring to improve?

Aha, I see your thought process. My guess is that these decisions were made prior to COVID based on past availability issues? No matter what, they shouldn't be increasing the point chart. It's all bogus and now they are scrambling. It appears they don't have a clear answer, either, and their answer is always changing.

 

[mgarbowski]

I do not remember this in Grand Cal or BLT Documents.

BLT has the provision of needing to be able to reserve studio for at least one use day for 16 pts, 1-bedroom for 39 its, and 2-BR for54 pts, and Grand Villa for 96 its, in the third paragraph of Section 3.3 of the DVC Membership Agreement which is in the BLT Public Offering Statement. In my copy it is page 165.

 

[drusba]

BLT has the provision of needing to be able to reserve studio for at least one use day for 16 pts, 1-bedroom for 39 its, and 2-BR for54 pts, and Grand Villa for 96 its, in the third paragraph of Section 3.3 of the DVC Membership Agreement which is in the BLT Public Offering Statement. In my copy it is page 165.

The provisions you mention are those relating to the issue of a maximum reallocation and similar provisions are in all the Membership Agreements although the specific point totals given differ among the resorts. DVCM can, as set out in the Membership Agreement, react to seasonal demand changes by raising points for a vacation home for some nights while lowering the points an equal amount in other nights. That activity over many years could ultimately result in a maximum reallocation when, for each sized room, the points are the same for every night of the year in every season. Those numbers given are what would be the points per night if every night required the same points. You will notice in the resorts that have 1BRs and 2BRs that the provisions continue by pointing out the number of points one would need for any one week of the year to trade out a week for non-Disney resorts if there were a maximum reallocation. That 7-day total given is what the point cost would be for every week in the year if there has been a maximum reallocation.

Those provisions further support our belief that DVCM cannot do any act to actually raise the total points for the year because allowing it to do so to any degree could render those maximum reallocation provisions false, i.e., if DVCM could raise total points, a maximum reallocation could, for example, lead to every night in a studio at BLT costing 17 points rather than 16, rendering the provision in the membership agreement false.

Those maximum reallocation provisions support an additional point that was raised by members when DVC attempted with the original 2020 point charts to raise studios and 1BRs almost year round while lowering 2BRs and GVs, claiming it could shift points from one sized villa to another as long as total points remained the same. Among other provisions in the POS, the maximum reallocation provisions effectively prevent that and limit DVCM to shifting points among seasons for the same-sized vacation home, e.g.., it can raise studios in one season and lower them in another and stay within the concept of what happens if there is a maximum reallocation, but if it were allowed to raise studio points year round while lowering the 2BRs, a maximum reallocation would again not lead to that 16 points per night for a BLT studio.

 

[CastAStone]

She kept encouraging me to please be patient and “trust the process” for what will happen in 2023

I am absolutely dying that they told you this hackneyed Bills/76ers rallying cry.

Also my reading of your call is that they’ve realized they messed up and are planning to fix for 2023 it but are trying not to have to re-release 2022 point charts.

 

[Minniemoo15]

I am absolutely dying that they told you this hackneyed Bills/76ers rallying cry.

Also my reading of your call is that they’ve realized they messed up and are planning to fix for 2023 it but are trying not to have to re-release 2022 point charts.

That is the sense I got too.
On my first call they told me points would go down in 2023 (true, but we know they will still be high).

On last night’s call she told me the same thing, but then she also said these charts are the highest they will ever be. That was a new piece of information that leads me to believe (hope) it will be fixed in 2023.

 

[dismedvc]

On my first call they told me points would go down in 2023 (true, but we know they will still be high).

On last night’s call she told me the same thing, but then she also said these charts are the highest they will ever be. That was a new piece of information that leads me to believe (hope) it will be fixed in 2023.

Also my reading of your call is that they’ve realized they messed up and are planning to fix for 2023 it but are trying not to have to re-release 2022 point charts.

As you stated, if DVC makes no further change, points will go down in 2023 (as shown in the chart below for SSR). In 2023 points will go down to the kink in the line between 2022 and 2024 which is about .25% point inflation), points will go down even further in 2024 to about .15% point inflation. However, points go back up in 2025 to about where they were in 2022. Also, in 2038 points will be even higher than they are in 2022, so the statement 2022 "is the highest they will ever be" is not true, unless DVC makes additional changes.

My feeling is DVC is hoping to not have to revise the 2022 point charts, and then will use the same methodology for the 2023 and 2024 point charts, hoping members will accept that methodology since points will go down in those years compared to 2022. Then when points spike back up in 2025, DVC can claim that is just the normal calendar effect, since the methodology did not change between 2023, 2024 and 2025.

In my opinion members need to fight hard to get the 2022 point charts revised. If we, as DVC encourages us, "“be patient” and “trust the process” for 2023" the precedent will have been established and members will be stuck with the higher point charts in 2025, 2028 etc. as shown in the chart below. Thanks again to @i<3riviera for previously posting the chart I copied below.

 

[Tiggerette]

A recap of my call today with YC and another manager in charge of club strategy & point chart analysis/changes . This manager was on the first call with me back in December.
.... From the discussions they have had since, they realized it is not 100% clear how much the point chart can actually increase. He told me they are actually working now on putting together a plan and guidelines to outline all of this and ensure this (?) doesn’t happen.

So then I asked ... “don’t these guidelines already exist in the form of the POS?” I quoted sections of the POS and POC that pretty clearly lay how total number of points cannot change beyond normal calendar variations. That any increase needs to be offset by a decrease etc. ... YC jumped in and told me not to be concerned about points rising infinitely and that this will not happen. 'I can assure you of that.' ... The purpose of reallocation is to address shifts up/down and for the benefit of the membership. The goal of this is only to improve availability. .... She kept encouraging me to please be patient and “trust the process” for what will happen in 2023.

(emphasis mine)

Please forgive the truncation of your excellent feedback meeting- I encourage readers to press the upthread button to review in its entirety. I'm quoting for focus on the "plan and guidelines to outline all of this" part of the feedback meeting.

As much as the contracts detail how to allocate and manage points, it also outlays how it is possible to make changes to them. My concern is that the same stewardship organization who is creating this questionable circumstance, will be the same one to vote on our behalf for changes they deem "to benefit membership." (While we are also laying out how their actions are NOT to our individual/ownership benefit.) What I'm trying to say is that if we are concerned the documents aren't being adhered to, is it possible that there will be a future vote and executed amendment to those "problematic sections" in order to formally carry out what they want to be allowable?

 

[RoseGold]

I asked - there now more points in the chart than owners own. At PVB this is enough to book 2 studios every day, year round. She said yes but these points are available to everyone - owners can bank and borrow and book to access these extra rooms. It is not to profit any one party - it is too small of a # for the developer (Disney?) to even notice.

This explanation doesn't even make sense. This kind of crap does not amuse me.

 

[drusba]

Although my personal view is that DVC was required to stick with the 5-season point chart and do only allowed adjustments for it, there is likely a way DVC could easily fix the the excess points problem it created and keep a 7-season chart.

If, as it appears, the 7-season point chart would essentially match the actual total points applicable to the resort in a year that Easter falls on March 25, then DVC could do the following: (a) leave the week leading up to Easter as is in the 7th season; (b) leave the five days after Easter in the Sixth season; (c) make all other days in March and April a fifth season where the points needed per night for the days before the Easter weeks are the same as those needed for the days after the Easter weeks. That would result in the pre-Easter weeks days being somewhat less per night than they are now and post Easter week points per night being somewhat higher. The total points would be the same as what now exists when Easter is March 25 and they would no longer change from year to year just because the date of Easter changes.

 

[Tiggerette]

I agree Drusba. This would make the calendars more predictive, and more in alignment with the process in the contracts. Having "sudden" shifts in the point totals as Easter moves about the calendar is clearly problematic, within the interpretation that says base year/point totals must be constant. There still might be an issue with weekend nights being up/down over time, however it seems to me that having greater/lesser number of weekend days in your example would not cause the point totals to egregiously change as we are seeing now.

(Please forgive any phrase that isn't quite correct in its nuance or use. I welcome feedback as needed for clarity.)

EDIT to add: Unless your example is keeping Easter always a Sunday. Then I can see how -7 days and +5 days surrounding Easter can remain constant in its weekend nights.

 

[EM Lawrence]

If anyone has a call already scheduled, can make a note to ask DVC management what they anticipate the point charts will look like beyond 2023, specifically, ask if the points will be high again in 2025. I’m really curious how they will handle that question.

 

[dismedvc]

still no answer yet but I'm not worried, I'm assuming the best; either they're still working on an answer (reasonable in my opinion because they want to clearly articulate their complex position) or it got lost in the internet on the way; we still have some time so I don't feel like I'm being ignored, it's just giving me extra time to number crunch; I'll reach out again soon if I don't hear anything

I haven't used any of my graphs yet because I haven't gotten beyond the online form; I figure if I get an email to schedule a call, I can send them at that time

Have you been contacted by DVC?
Since you posted the above on January 13th, 4 weeks have gone by.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Although my personal view is that DVC was required to stick with the 5-season point chart and do only allowed adjustments for it, there is likely a way DVC could easily fix the the excess points problem it created and keep a 7-season chart.

If, as it appears, the 7-season point chart would essentially match the actual total points applicable to the resort in a year that Easter falls on March 25, then DVC could do the following: (a) leave the week leading up to Easter as is in the 7th season; (b) leave the five days after Easter in the Sixth season; (c) make all other days in March and April a fifth season where the points needed per night for the days before the Easter weeks are the same as those needed for the days after the Easter weeks. That would result in the pre-Easter weeks days being somewhat less per night than they are now and post Easter week points per night being somewhat higher. The total points would be the same as what now exists when Easter is March 25 and they would no longer change from year to year just because the date of Easter changes.

Yes, there are so many ways the point charts could be structured to keep total points close to declared points!

But, Club Strategy declared rounding everything up was the only way to adhere to the magical proportion that would vastly improve availability and benefit members. (Wouldn't want to make certain rooms too cheap or attractive, would we?)

 

[Minniemoo15]

Those of us who had phone calls ... how did you contact DVC in the first place? I used a direct email address I found online. I am curious if anyone who filled out the standard feedback form received anything back.

 

[zavandor]

Those of us who had phone calls ... how did you contact DVC in the first place? I used a direct email address I found online. I am curious if anyone who filled out the standard feedback form received anything back.

I have used the mail button on the website.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Those of us who had phone calls ... how did you contact DVC in the first place? I used a direct email address I found online. I am curious if anyone who filled out the standard feedback form received anything back.

I emailed: members@disneyvacationclub.com

 

[laserpastry]

The provisions you mention are those relating to the issue of a maximum reallocation and similar provisions are in all the Membership Agreements although the specific point totals given differ among the resorts. DVCM can, as set out in the Membership Agreement, react to seasonal demand changes by raising points for a vacation home for some nights while lowering the points an equal amount in other nights. That activity over many years could ultimately result in a maximum reallocation when, for each sized room, the points are the same for every night of the year in every season. Those numbers given are what would be the points per night if every night required the same points. You will notice in the resorts that have 1BRs and 2BRs that the provisions continue by pointing out the number of points one would need for any one week of the year to trade out a week for non-Disney resorts if there were a maximum reallocation. That 7-day total given is what the point cost would be for every week in the year if there has been a maximum reallocation.

Those provisions further support our belief that DVCM cannot do any act to actually raise the total points for the year because allowing it to do so to any degree could render those maximum reallocation provisions false, i.e., if DVCM could raise total points, a maximum reallocation could, for example, lead to every night in a studio at BLT costing 17 points rather than 16, rendering the provision in the membership agreement false.

Those maximum reallocation provisions support an additional point that was raised by members when DVC attempted with the original 2020 point charts to raise studios and 1BRs almost year round while lowering 2BRs and GVs, claiming it could shift points from one sized villa to another as long as total points remained the same. Among other provisions in the POS, the maximum reallocation provisions effectively prevent that and limit DVCM to shifting points among seasons for the same-sized vacation home, e.g.., it can raise studios in one season and lower them in another and stay within the concept of what happens if there is a maximum reallocation, but if it were allowed to raise studio points year round while lowering the 2BRs, a maximum reallocation would again not lead to that 16 points per night for a BLT studio.

Thank you for explaining this. I always wondered what the big deal was with the original 2020 point charts, since they just seemed to be balancing demand while keeping total points the same, which I thought sounded legitimate. I understand better now where the members were coming from.

 

[Bing Showei]

Those of us who had phone calls ... how did you contact DVC in the first place? I used a direct email address I found online. I am curious if anyone who filled out the standard feedback form received anything back.

I reached out first via members@disneyvacationclub.com. Immediately got a “received” message and then followed up after a period of radio silence.

Wanted to put this out there: would anyone be interested in joining in on a group call? Even if you’ve spoken to Disney previously, it might be helpful to collectively make sure we are hearing the same thing as we report back any findings we make. It would also afford us a chance to chime in if something is brought up that individually we may miss as a point that we would want to make. It may be tougher with international members, but I’m happy to try to coordinate a time that works for everyone interested. If you are interested, please PM me.