DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[cm8]

I will add there is a clause in the POS membership agreement that specifically defines how many nights your ownership will get you. It will tell you if you own X points, you are guaranteed to have at least X number of nights bookable, based on availability for every Y number of points, in each of the accommodations at the resort.

For example, at RIV, it says I am guaranteed that for EVERY 16 points I own there, I must be given the ability to book at studio. That means the chart has to include at least that many nights for me for my 175, which means about 8 - 9 nights a year, They can never adjust the charts that cause any owner to not have those days as possible.

So based on that analysis, does it meet the criteria for the amount of points you currently own there? Also, does that ever factor into the minimum points required for purchase?

 

[DVCSunDevil]

I disagree. If a resort had 100 identical rooms, and a member bought enough points so they cold reserve one room for 365 nights a year under the old point chart, they owned 1% of the resort. However, if under the new point chart (that is inflated by .5%) they are now only able to reserve 363 nights. I would argue they now own less than 1% of the resort.

I agree that the value of each persons ownership is reduced by the point chart inflation. But "percentage" of anything is defined as the "part" divided by the "whole". On your deed it has the percent of the resort that you own...that doesn't change by the point chart increasing. A similar example would be money...if there was $100 divided equally among 5 people, they would all have a % "ownership" of that $100 (in this case 20%). If the items they were going to buy increased in price, that doesn't change the % ownership they each have of that $100 (ownership interest). The increase in price does, however, have a negative effect on the value of that ownership interest.

Maybe we are saying the same thing in a different way? I don't know. What I DO know is that DVC increasing the point chart does NOT benefit the members. And again, I was under the impression that DVC could not increase the point chart. If they increase certain nights, don't that have to decrease other nights so that the yearly total points required to book all rooms remains the same?

 

[Sandisw]

So based on that analysis, does it meet the criteria for the amount of points you currently own there? Also, does that ever factor into the minimum points required for purchase?

Yes it does and as I have shared, I have done a lot of analysis, used info here, talked to DVC a few times, and gotten advice who have legal knowledge and come to my own conclusions which I know differ.

As I was told, people can dispute anything in a contract that they want, especially when there is more than one plausible explanation.

So, my advice to everyone is reach out to DVC, get first hand explanation and decide from there what you think.

Personally, I have decided to trust the advice from my very knowledgeable legal friends!

 

[New Mouse]

I will add there is a clause in the POS membership agreement that specifically defines how many nights your ownership will get you. It will tell you if you own X points, you are guaranteed to have at least X number of nights bookable, based on availability for every Y number of points, in each of the accommodations at the resort.

For example, at RIV, it says I am guaranteed that for EVERY 16 points I own there, I must be given the ability to book at studio. That means the chart has to include at least that many nights for me for my 175, which means about 8 - 9 nights a year, They can never adjust the charts that cause any owner to not have those days as possible.

ETA. Before anyone asks, yes, this interpretation came from my conversations when seeking legal advice.

I do not remember this in Grand Cal or BLT Documents. From reading and hearing the comments from calls, it seems like every new generation of DVC gets modified and that in itself is creating a mess that even those at DVC dont understand.

 

[New Mouse]

Yes it does and as I have shared, I have done a lot of analysis, used info here, talked to DVC a few times, and gotten advice who have legal knowledge and come to my own conclusions which I know differ.

As I was told, people can dispute anything in a contract that they want, especially when there is more than one plausible explanation.

So, my advice to everyone is reach out to DVC, get first hand explanation and decide from there what you think.

Personally, I have decided to trust the advice from my very knowledgeable legal friends!

With such a hard sales push that the points going up must be equal to points going down, there is no way any of it would stand up in court regardless.

 

[dismedvc]

For example, at RIV, it says I am guaranteed that for EVERY 16 points I own there, I must be given the ability to book at studio. That means the chart has to include at least that many nights for me for my 175, which means about 8 - 9 nights a year, They can never adjust the charts that cause any owner to not have those days as possible.

Good point. Although it seems you can book even more nights than you indicated. If for every 16 points you must be given the ability to book a studio, then 176 points would mean you must be given the the ability to book a studio for 11 nights, so your 175 points means almost 11 nights a year if you use your points for those guaranteed 16 point nights.

The 2022 point charts may very well keep those minimum point nights, but I think what is being debated here is that the increase in the number of higher point nights in 2022 between the end of February and 7 days before Easter was not offset by either a point reduction elsewhere, or an increase in the number of lower point nights, in order to keep the total number of points required to book every room for every night of the year constant.

 

[dismedvc]

But "percentage" of anything is defined as the "part" divided by the "whole". On your deed it has the percent of the resort that you own...that doesn't change by the point chart increasing. A similar example would be money...if there was $100 divided equally among 5 people, they would all have a % "ownership" of that $100 (in this case 20%). If the items they were going to buy increased in price, that doesn't change the % ownership they each have of that $100 (ownership interest). The increase in price does, however, have a negative effect on the value of that ownership interest.

Maybe we are saying the same thing in a different way?

I think the difference is we own a percentage of a property. If you own 100% of a property, you should be able to use it 100% of the time. If ownership of a house was divided equally among 5 people they would each own 20% which would equate to 73 nights each in a 365 day year. If something changes so that the five owners are only allowed to occupy the house for 363 days in total, and non-owners can pay to stay in the house the other two days, with none of that payment going to the 5 owners, it seems to me the 5 owners no longer own 100% of the house, regardless of what it says on the deed.

 

[Minniemoo15]

A recap of my call today with YC and another manager in charge of club strategy & point chart analysis/changes . This manager was on the first call with me back in December.

I started off by expressing my concerns that arose from the last call. More specifically, how I was told legally points can increase infinitely and that there is no limit. YC told me that no, they cannot and that it is “not in the spirit” of DVC to increase points. The other manager (the one who had told me points could legally increase infinitely) then jumped in. He said that after our last conversation, he realized he needed to look at the fine print. From the discussions they have had since, they realized it is not 100% clear how much the point chart can actually increase. He told me they are actually working now on putting together a plan and guidelines to outline all of this and ensure this (?) doesn’t happen.

So then I asked ... “don’t these guidelines already exist in the form of the POS?” I quoted sections of the POS and POC that pretty clearly lay how total number of points cannot change beyond normal calendar variations. That any increase needs to be offset by a decrease etc.

YC jumped in and told me not to be concerned about points rising infinitely and that this will not happen. “I can assure you of that.” Total points for use CAN be more than total declared (but never less) as they reallocate by demand. I asked what the highest total # of points at PVB can be. I wanted a number. She said there was no specific number. The purpose of reallocation is to address shifts up/down and for the benefit of the membership. The goal of this is only to improve availability. They try their best to do the best they can.

She said that 2022 - because of the calendar reallocation - is the 1 year that will be higher than others and is anomalous. They want to smooth out availability and demand. This point chart is the highest it will ever be. She stressed that it WILL go down in 2023. She kept encouraging me to please be patient and “trust the process” for what will happen in 2023.

I then shifted to who benefits from these extra points. Won’t it be Disney? The other manager took this part and told me it could be 4 things
-1 - yes, disney can rent out and pocket the rental
-2 - we can use these points for emergency maintenance (went on a tangent about Aulani needing 50,000 points so while this won’t benefit me as a PVB owner, it is still needed - ????)
-3- breakage to book last minute rooms such as those banked into 2022.

He never got to #4 so not sure what that one was. YC said DVC is not doing this to benefit any one particular member or party, including Disney. It is all about improving availability and smoothing demand for the benefit of members.

I asked - there now more points in the chart than owners own. At PVB this is enough to book 2 studios every day, year round. She said yes but these points are available to everyone - owners can bank and borrow and book to access these extra rooms. It is not to profit any one party - it is too small of a # for the developer (Disney?) to even notice.

The call finished by YC saying 2023 WILL be better and please bear with them. They urged me to please not worry about my points losing their value, this will NOT happen.
They hear my (our) feedback on these 2022 point charts and it is really important to them that this feedback is reflected on the 2023 charts.

I told them I appreciated taking the time to reach out to me for a second time (I really do think this is wonderful that they will engage with the membership).

My impression is that they may be realizing things (issues?) with the 2022 charts that they did not realize a month ago. In the same breath, I feel they will not be doing anything about the 2022 point charts and may be planning to rectify the 2023 charts to appease us instead. They really encouraged me to “be patient” and “trust the process” for 2023.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

A recap of my call today with YC and another manager in charge of club strategy & point chart analysis/changes . This manager was on the first call with me back in December.

I started off by expressing my concerns that arose from the last call. More specifically, how I was told legally points can increase infinitely and that there is no limit. YC told me that no, they cannot and that it is “not in the spirit” of DVC to increase points. The other manager (the one who had told me points could legally increase infinitely) then jumped in. He said that after our last conversation, he realized he needed to look at the fine print. From the discussions they have had since, they realized it is not 100% clear how much the point chart can actually increase. He told me they are actually working now on putting together a plan and guidelines to outline all of this and ensure this (?) doesn’t happen.

So then I asked ... “don’t these guidelines already exist in the form of the POS?” I quoted sections of the POS and POC that pretty clearly lay how total number of points cannot change beyond normal calendar variations. That any increase needs to be offset by a decrease etc.

YC jumped in and told me not to be concerned about points rising infinitely and that this will not happen. “I can assure you of that.” Total points for use CAN be more than total declared (but never less) as they reallocate by demand. I asked what the highest total # of points at PVB can be. I wanted a number. She said there was no specific number. The purpose of reallocation is to address shifts up/down and for the benefit of the membership. The goal of this is only to improve availability. They try their best to do the best they can.

She said that 2022 - because of the calendar reallocation - is the 1 year that will be higher than others and is anomalous. They want to smooth out availability and demand. This point chart is the highest it will ever be. She stressed that it WILL go down in 2023. She kept encouraging me to please be patient and “trust the process” for what will happen in 2023.

I then shifted to who benefits from these extra points. Won’t it be Disney? The other manager took this part and told me it could be 4 things
-1 - yes, disney can rent out and pocket the rental
-2 - we can use these points for emergency maintenance (went on a tangent about Aulani needing 50,000 points so while this won’t benefit me as a PVB owner, it is still needed - ????)
-3- breakage to book last minute rooms such as those banked into 2022.

He never got to #4 so not sure what that one was. YC said DVC is not doing this to benefit any one particular member or party, including Disney. It is all about improving availability and smoothing demand for the benefit of members.

I asked - there now more points in the chart than owners own. At PVB this is enough to book 2 studios every day, year round. She said yes but these points are available to everyone - owners can bank and borrow and book to access these extra rooms. It is not to profit any one party - it is too small of a # for the developer (Disney?) to even notice.

The call finished by YC saying 2023 WILL be better and please bear with them. They urged me to please not worry about my points losing their value, this will NOT happen.
They hear my (our) feedback on these 2022 point charts and it is really important to them that this feedback is reflected on the 2023 charts.

I told them I appreciated taking the time to reach out to me for a second time (I really do think this is wonderful that they will engage with the membership).

My impression is that they may be realizing things (issues?) with the 2022 charts that they did not realize a month ago. In the same breath, I feel they will not be doing anything about the 2022 point charts and may be planning to rectify the 2023 charts to appease us instead. They really encouraged me to “be patient” and “trust the process” for 2023.

Thanks for sharing. Do you know what may help to alleviate concerns among the DVC membership? DVC putting out a statement/email stating that points WILL go down in 2023. That way it's in writing. Maybe they should consider doing that?

 

[New Mouse]

The more I hear, the more I realize we have a bunch of uneducated buffons running the show.

What do they mean they dont know how much they are allowed to raise the point charts? That should have been known since year 1, contract 1 at Old Key West. There is 0 reason to try to "figure this out" now.

If the point charts "fix" this in 2023, wouldnt they then have to go back down by 2 x what they went up? Even if they went back to 2021 levels, wouldnt there still be an availability issue?

They can solve the banking and borrowing concerns by just limiting banking and borrowing. By not doing so full force during the pandemic, people are punting their points into future years because of it.

And fyi there is 0 availability issue during 2020 and 2021 thus far, its been the best availability ever.

 

[dismedvc]

The call finished by YC saying 2023 WILL be better and please bear with them.

Yes 2023 will be lower than 2022, but as shown in the chart below which was previously posted by @i<3riviera points will go back up in in a large number of years after 2023. If DVC had stayed with the 5 season point chart, points would only have fluctuated by the dotted line at the bottom of the chart. Sure seems to me that would be "better for members".
Note: the chart below is for Riviera, but the pattern is the same for all other resorts.



ETA: Thanks @Minniemoo15 for your efforts and reporting the content of your discussion with YC and other members of DVC.

 

[drusba]

Thanks for sharing. Do you know what may help to alleviate concerns among the DVC membership? If DVC putting out a statement/email stating that points WILL go down in 2023. That way it's in writing. Maybe they should consider doing that?

Of course the total points will go down in 2023. The new point charts are designed to raise and lower total points with the annual change in the date for Easter. The days in March or April before the Sunday before Easter are always in the the sixth highest point season. The days after the Friday after Easter in April are always in the lower point fifth season. The result is that the earlier Easter occurs, the lower the total points and the later it occurs the higher the total points. Easter is April 17 in 2022 but April 9 in 2023. That means 2023 will have 8 fewer nights in the sixth highest point season and 8 more nights in the lower point fifth season than 2022, resulting in a noticeable decrease in total points from one year to the next year. But because 2035, when Easter is March 25, was chosen as a new base year, the total points in 2023 will still be a lot higher than total points allowed.

Moreover, if the point charts‘ reliance on the movement of the Easter date continues as is, then DVC was fibbing when it said in the call that total points will never be higher than they are in 2022, as that statement will be untrue for any year in which Easter occurs after April 17, and Easter can occur as late as April 25.

 

[dismedvc]

Moreover, if the point charts‘ reliance on the movement of the Easter date continues as is, then DVC was fibbing when it said in the call that total points will never be higher than they are in 2022, as that statement will be untrue for any year in which Easter occurs after April 17, and Easter can occur as late as April 25.

Thanks: @drusba great point. Also great composure to use the term "fibbing".

Note: This post was edited to focus on the most important point after post #512 above was edited to correct a previous error.

 

[EM Lawrence]

Let me tell you why I don’t think we should just trust DVC to do right with the points in 2023 and beyond.

1. They squandered the ability to say “trust us” with the lock off fiasco.

2. In some cases with contracts, if you know the other party violated the contract, but you do not object to the violation, you can lose the ability to object later. I think it behooves the membership to object as strenuously as possible now, not want until 2023 to see if it all works out. (This is not legal advice.)

3. They made the change to 7 seasons in the 2021 point chart, released in late 2019, which means the groundwork for this point inflation happened before the parks shut down in Spring of 2020. They could not possibly have anticipated the point glut coming in 2022 when they laid the groundwork for the point chart inflation, therefore increasing availability due to a Covid related point glut could not have been their motivation.

4. If there was a straightforward explanation that demonstrated how this change was for the benefit of the membership, it would have been communicated easily and repeatedly. That has not happened, which leads me to believe such an explanation does not exist.

*Edited to add: it seems to me that they have the ability to balance points from one season to another to account for demand, but is there any language anywhere that says they can adjust points to create availability? Those are two different things.

 

[drusba]

Actually Easter is on April 9th in 2045. It is on March 25th in 2035, which appears to be the base year.
I believe the earliest Easter can be is March 22nd, but that will not happen in the next 200 years.

Note: @drusba this is not a criticism, you add a lot of value to these discussions, and everything else in your post is absolutely correct. I just did not know how else to reach you so you could edit your post. I am sure DVC is monitoring this thread, and they only need to find one small error to claim the whole thread is in error.

Thanks for the correction, and I have corrected my post. I made an error and wanted to put the year DVC has actually asserted, as stated in one of the earlier posts, that it chose as a base year, 2035, when Easter is March 25. Though Easter can be as early as March 22, DVC could not choose a base year like that because it was more than 100 years ago that it was as early as March 22, and will not reach that date again for more than 100 years. In fact, between the time when the new 7-season point charts were released in late 2019 and the year all current DVC resorts will have expired in 2070, the earliest date for Easter will be March 25. and that will occur only twice in 2035 and 2046, meaning the 7-season point charts are designed to cause having higher total points than allowed in a base year for every year in a 50-year period except two.

 

[Cabius]

*Edited to add: it seems to me that they have the ability to balance points from one season to another to account for demand, but is there any language anywhere that says they can adjust points to create availability? Those are two different things.

"Create availability" may be synonymous with balancing demand -- if there is no availability in fall/winter but lots of breakage in summer, smoothing demand creates more availability for current peak seasons as some members choose to book at other times.

But yes, that's very different than inflating the point chart to increase total availability. If every member uses all of their points and there is still availability left, that's not exactly a win.

 

[Mumof4mice]

A recap of my call today with YC and another manager in charge of club strategy & point chart analysis/changes . This manager was on the first call with me back in December.

I started off by expressing my concerns that arose from the last call. More specifically, how I was told legally points can increase infinitely and that there is no limit. YC told me that no, they cannot and that it is “not in the spirit” of DVC to increase points. The other manager (the one who had told me points could legally increase infinitely) then jumped in. He said that after our last conversation, he realized he needed to look at the fine print. From the discussions they have had since, they realized it is not 100% clear how much the point chart can actually increase. He told me they are actually working now on putting together a plan and guidelines to outline all of this and ensure this (?) doesn’t happen.

So then I asked ... “don’t these guidelines already exist in the form of the POS?” I quoted sections of the POS and POC that pretty clearly lay how total number of points cannot change beyond normal calendar variations. That any increase needs to be offset by a decrease etc.

YC jumped in and told me not to be concerned about points rising infinitely and that this will not happen. “I can assure you of that.” Total points for use CAN be more than total declared (but never less) as they reallocate by demand. I asked what the highest total # of points at PVB can be. I wanted a number. She said there was no specific number. The purpose of reallocation is to address shifts up/down and for the benefit of the membership. The goal of this is only to improve availability. They try their best to do the best they can.

She said that 2022 - because of the calendar reallocation - is the 1 year that will be higher than others and is anomalous. They want to smooth out availability and demand. This point chart is the highest it will ever be. She stressed that it WILL go down in 2023. She kept encouraging me to please be patient and “trust the process” for what will happen in 2023.

I then shifted to who benefits from these extra points. Won’t it be Disney? The other manager took this part and told me it could be 4 things
-1 - yes, disney can rent out and pocket the rental
-2 - we can use these points for emergency maintenance (went on a tangent about Aulani needing 50,000 points so while this won’t benefit me as a PVB owner, it is still needed - ????)
-3- breakage to book last minute rooms such as those banked into 2022.

He never got to #4 so not sure what that one was. YC said DVC is not doing this to benefit any one particular member or party, including Disney. It is all about improving availability and smoothing demand for the benefit of members.

I asked - there now more points in the chart than owners own. At PVB this is enough to book 2 studios every day, year round. She said yes but these points are available to everyone - owners can bank and borrow and book to access these extra rooms. It is not to profit any one party - it is too small of a # for the developer (Disney?) to even notice.

The call finished by YC saying 2023 WILL be better and please bear with them. They urged me to please not worry about my points losing their value, this will NOT happen.
They hear my (our) feedback on these 2022 point charts and it is really important to them that this feedback is reflected on the 2023 charts.

I told them I appreciated taking the time to reach out to me for a second time (I really do think this is wonderful that they will engage with the membership).

My impression is that they may be realizing things (issues?) with the 2022 charts that they did not realize a month ago. In the same breath, I feel they will not be doing anything about the 2022 point charts and may be planning to rectify the 2023 charts to appease us instead. They really encouraged me to “be patient” and “trust the process” for 2023.

Thanks for sharing your conversation with DVCM.

 

[Mumof4mice]

3. They made the change to 7 seasons in the 2021 point chart, released in late 2019, which means the groundwork for this point inflation happened before the parks shut down in Spring of 2020. They could not possibly have anticipated the point glut coming in 2022 when they laid the groundwork for the point chart inflation, therefore increasing availability due to a Covid related point glut could not have been their motivation.

The Club Strategy manager I spoke with emphatically and unequivocally denied absorbing extended points/lost points from Covid closures has anything to do with how the points charts were designed.

But it sounds like they "refined" their pitch again in their call with @Minniemoo15 :

-3- breakage to book last minute rooms such as those banked into 2022.

 

[DL1WDW2]

Now what ?

 

[DVCSunDevil]

And fyi there is 0 availability issue during 2020 and 2021 thus far, its been the best availability ever.

COVID?? A very large percentage of DVC owners are hesitant to travel. I bet the availability will be good in 2022 as well because of this.