2022 Point Charts Are Out

[zavandor]

At RIV, you have to really only look at 2 bedrooms and dedicated studios and 1 bedrooms because lock off premiums are not required to stay the same. They can increase so I think one really needs to look at 2 bedrooms.

What I don’t know though is how you determine with dedicated studios and 1 bedrooms.

They cannot increase the lockoff premium. For a variety of reasons, the most important being it would be against the interests of the members and they have to act in our interests.

 

[Sandisw]

They cannot increase the lockoff premium. For a variety of reasons, the most important being it would be against the interests of the members and they have to act in our interests.

Not sure that is true for RIV...it specifically references it and that it will be more..but regardless, there is nothing to say the difference needs to be the same. Studios can go up with 1 bedrooms staying the same or lowering 1 bedrooms.

I can’t find language that says it has to be the same for all seasons either. That was my point. Because of that, you can’t use the lock off premium to say the overall chart is up if the 2 bedrooms and dedicated numbers seem to be in line.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

At RIV, you have to really only look at 2 bedrooms and dedicated studios and 1 bedrooms because lock off premiums are not required to stay the same. They can increase so I think one really needs to look at 2 bedrooms.

What I don’t know though is how you determine with dedicated studios and 1 bedrooms.

If there are dedicated studios and 1BR's then those should provide a threshold for lock-off premiums. They are declared into the association with a fixed amount of points just like a 2BR however I don't know if anyone has posted what that is for Riviera. I've seen posts of the amounts for other resorts though.

 

[wishicouldgomoreofte]

I do understand why fall is more points and will help them achieve their goals of shifting demand ... but why has my first week in March at Poly gone up nearly 10% in 2 years? It’s always been the 2nd highest point-wise season. Making it even more expensive doesn’t seem like it will do much to shift demand??

ETA: I’m hoping someone smarter than me can help me figure out this chart that someone posted in the DVC fan FB group.

Shouldn’t the number of increases somewhat balance out with decreases? Looking at this it looks like there is +61 increase and -12 decrease for a net result of +49? I’m sure there is an explanation but I am too much of a novice to see it at first glance.

I know people spend a lot of time trying to check on and see that it is all correct. I don't. I figure the people on here who do it know more and better than I do. But, yes, it sure does seem like the points are going up every year, maybe a little, but the cumulative effect is noticeably higher than just a few years ago. (shakes head) And I agree, it does not seem to balance out. But I can't do anything about it. I have to pay the points they require.

 

[Minniemoo15]

I know people spend a lot of time trying to check on and see that it is all correct. I don't. I figure the people on here who do it know more and better than I do. But, yes, it sure does seem like the points are going up every year, maybe a little, but the cumulative effect is noticeably higher than just a few years ago. (shakes head) And I agree, it does not seem to balance out. But I can't do anything about it. I have to pay the points they require.

Even more concerning to me now is the fact that it appears they have some 23,000 extra points in the 2022 chart above and beyond the total declared points in the POS . I wrote an email to DVC for further clarification.

 

[limace]

They cannot increase the lockoff premium. For a variety of reasons, the most important being it would be against the interests of the members and they have to act in our interests.

I appreciate your optimism. I am not convinced that their definition of acting in our interests and ours would be the same.

 

[wishicouldgomoreofte]

Even more concerning to me now is the fact that it appears they have some 23,000 extra points in the 2022 chart above and beyond the total declared points in the POS . I wrote an email to DVC for further clarification.

Good for you for going into the details enough to know that. I am sure someone else on here, who knows more than I do, will respond.

 

[zavandor]

Not sure that is true for RIV...it specifically references it and that it will be more..but regardless, there is nothing to say the difference needs to be the same. Studios can go up with 1 bedrooms staying the same or lowering 1 bedrooms.

I can’t find language that says it has to be the same for all seasons either. That was my point. Because of that, you can’t use the lock off premium to say the overall chart is up if the 2 bedrooms and dedicated numbers seem to be in line.

I haven't read the RIV POS, but VGF has the same wording, but they rolled back that point chart too in 2020. The fact it's written in the POS doesn't make it legal. Or if it's legal, it might even be not possible anyway:

I appreciate your optimism. I am not convinced that their definition of acting in our interests and ours would be the same.

We can talk forever about what is a Timeshare Unit and if it's possible to reallocate points across different Units. Florida law is not very clear so it could be interpreted in different ways.
However, one think is absolutely certain. The DVC Management Company must make the interests of the members. I'm not a lawyer, but people more expert than me (@drusba in particular) have posted the limits within a company with fiduciary duty should operate.
Even if everything else fails, they still are allowed to increase the lockoff premium ONLY if this is in the interests of the majority of the membership. If challenged in court, they must be ready to explain why that decision was taken.

The only possible reason to do that would be if the cost of managing the two separate reservations for a studio and a 1BR is much higher than managing a 2BR, more than the current offset. But, is it? What is the extra cost? Everything is automated (from reservation to DME to checkin), so what's left is the shipping cost for the MB to two separate addresses (which is going away in 2021 since free MB will be history) and cleaning the two rooms separately (does it really take much more?).
The lockoff premium generates a lot of lost points every year, this is already contibuiting to generate enough brekage that every resort hits the maximum offset. If anything at all, the lockoff premium should be decreased!
The increase in the lockoff premium they tried in 2019 could have given Disney millions every year in additional breakage. If they've rolled it back there are very good reasons.

 

[Chuck S]

Just for reference, prior to the very first point chart change many years ago, an OKW studio could be had for 69 points per week, in the lowest season. In 2022, it is 71 points. The 2020 chart shows 76 points for a studio week.

 

[Sandisw]

I haven't read the RIV POS, but VGF has the same wording, but they rolled back that point chart too in 2020. The fact it's written in the POS doesn't make it legal. Or if it's legal, it might even be not possible anyway:



We can talk forever about what is a Timeshare Unit and if it's possible to reallocate points across different Units. Florida law is not very clear so it could be interpreted in different ways.
However, one think is absolutely certain. The DVC Management Company must make the interests of the members. I'm not a lawyer, but people more expert than me (@drusba in particular) have posted the limits within a company with fiduciary duty should operate.
Even if everything else fails, they still are allowed to increase the lockoff premium ONLY if this is in the interests of the majority of the membership. If challenged in court, they must be ready to explain why that decision was taken.

The only possible reason to do that would be if the cost of managing the two separate reservations for a studio and a 1BR is much higher than managing a 2BR, more than the current offset. But, is it? What is the extra cost? Everything is automated (from reservation to DME to checkin), so what's left is the shipping cost for the MB to two separate addresses (which is going away in 2021 since free MB will be history) and cleaning the two rooms separately (does it really take much more?).
The lockoff premium generates a lot of lost points every year, this is already contibuiting to generate enough brekage that every resort hits the maximum offset. If anything at all, the lockoff premium should be decreased!
The increase in the lockoff premium they tried in 2019 could have given Disney millions every year in additional breakage. If they've rolled it back there are very good reasons.

I’ll find the language and post when I can and then I can get your take on it.

But, you mention when it could benefit members and that would be an increase in breakage to offset dues?.

I agree it would be tough to justify a big increase, but one point here or there may be tough to prove violates the terms of the contract.

As you said, they tried to do a shift that was noticed and rolled it back...that was before RIV so that is why I wonder if they changed the language to the extent to allow small adjustments?

The good news is that minor adjustments done seem to be in line.

 

[zavandor]

I’ll find the language and post when I can and then I can get your take on it.

But, you mention when it could benefit members and that would be an increase in breakage to offset dues?.

I agree it would be tough to justify a big increase, but one point here or there may be tough to prove violates the terms of the contract.

As you said, they tried to do a shift that was noticed and rolled it back...that was before RIV so that is why I wonder if they changed the language to the extent to allow small adjustments?

The good news is that minor adjustments done seem to be in line.

The language was already in the VGF POS.befor RIV.

An increase in the lockoff premium wouldn't decrease dues, because every resort already hits the maximum breakage.

 

[Sandisw]

The language was already in the VGF POS.befor RIV.

An increase in the lockoff premium wouldn't decrease dues, because every resort already hits the maximum breakage.

It would if the percentage of total budget was changed. We get 2.5% right now...if it was raised to 3%, then we get more. Now, they already could do that with no change, but you said they would have to have a reason and giving members more back from breakage would be something that can be seen as a benefit.

I will have to compare VGF to RIV because what I read didn’t seem familiar to what I had read when I bought BLT and VGF direct.

However, I am not convinced that the lock off premium can’t be adjusted up or down within reason, and there is nothing clear in the language that tells me that, So. It’s one of those gray areas for me as an owner.

 

[sethschroeder]

But, you mention when it could benefit members and that would be an increase in breakage to offset dues?.

Thing is what increase? They already are past the max. So it should he decreased down to where at most breakage just hits that cap of payout.

If it's continually over then the only other thing could be easier availability. That could be viewed as positive.

 

[Sandisw]

Thing is what increase? They already are past the max. So it should he decreased down to where at most breakage just hits that cap of payout.

If it's continually over then the only other thing could be easier availability. That could be viewed as positive.

That was simply an example of something that DVCM could do if they needed a reason to justify an increase in lock off premium, assuming it is legal to do so,

The discussion was they can’t do it unless it benefits members and I was giving an example that there is nothing that prevents them from changing the amount we get for breakage....raising the max.

But, we are straying from the topic of the points charts and what they did for 2022.

 

[Srinova]

I’m not very clued up on how things work, but slowly getting there so if anyone could help I’d really appreciate it

I’m very curious about the nightly point cost for studios at PVB in the ‘summer’ category 2022 - it is considerably more than all other resorts. If you look at the weekly rate it is 153 points, with even VGF only coming up to 138 (I believe). VGF is the highest among any other resort.

Can someone explain why this might be? PVB and VGF have historically been within 1 or 2 points of each other for studios. It seems a huge outlier...

 

[Minniemoo15]

I’m not very clued up on how things work, but slowly getting there so if anyone could help I’d really appreciate it

I’m very curious about the nightly point cost for studios at PVB in the ‘summer’ category 2022 - it is considerably more than all other resorts. If you look at the weekly rate it is 153 points, with even VGF only coming up to 138 (I believe). VGF is the highest among any other resort.

Can someone explain why this might be? PVB and VGF have historically been within 1 or 2 points of each other for studios. It seems a huge outlier...

I am not an expert either but the more I look at the PVB point charts the more they don’t sit right with me. I really feel something is off. Mostly - why are the total points for the year nearly 25,000 more than 2021 and 2020 charts... and nearly 25,000 more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. The increases in the 2022 chart do not appear to be offset by the same number of decreases elsewhere in the year. I emailed DVCM for further clarification and urge any other concerned PVB owner to do the same.

 

[mdembko]

I am not an expert either but the more I look at the PVB point charts the more they don’t sit right with me. I really feel something is off. Mostly - why are the total points for the year nearly 25,000 more than 2021 and 2020 charts... and nearly 25,000 more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. The increases in the 2022 chart do not appear to be offset by the same number of decreases elsewhere in the year. I emailed DVCM for further clarification and urge any other concerned PVB owner to do the same.

Just a correction on the points total, i<3riviera had more accurate data for PVB: there are 4,032,200 points that were declared in the POS and total points for the 2022 points chart was 4,054,000.
That is still a 21,800 point difference so it seems excessive. Also using i<3riviera's 2022/2021 points comparison chart there were 6 other resorts with many more points than declared, anywhere from 15K for Copper Creek to 112K for Grand Floridian! I also emailed DVCMC to get clarification on how this all works.

 

[Chuck S]

I am not an expert either but the more I look at the PVB point charts the more they don’t sit right with me. I really feel something is off. Mostly - why are the total points for the year nearly 25,000 more than 2021 and 2020 charts... and nearly 25,000 more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. The increases in the 2022 chart do not appear to be offset by the same number of decreases elsewhere in the year. I emailed DVCM for further clarification and urge any other concerned PVB owner to do the same.

It's hard to tell, because the other resorts have one, two and three bedroom units that can be juggled around with to help balance the charts. PVB just has the studios and the 2 Bedroom bungalows to juggle around, and those bungalows had such high points, that to lower them is really gonna boost the studios, even though there are a lot more studios than bungalows. Then consider that studios actually went DOWN in points in some seasons. the only big jump was a studio during Easter and Christmas.

 

[SL6827]

Just a correction on the points total, i<3riviera had more accurate data for PVB: there are 4,032,200 points that were declared in the POS and total points for the 2022 points chart was 4,054,000.
That is still a 21,800 point difference so it seems excessive. Also using i<3riviera's 2022/2021 points comparison chart there were 6 other resorts with many more points than declared, anywhere from 15K for Copper Creek to 112K for Grand Floridian! I also emailed DVCMC to get clarification on how this all works.

Wow, just wow! Seems shadier and shadier each day.

 

[JETSDAD]

Ok, so if I read this correctly, the total number of points in the resort are equal to the base year. The base year is defined as a 365 day year with the minimum number of Fridays and Saturdays distributed through high demand periods. The base year is not a specific year but this defined 'year'. So any year that has more Fridays or Saturdays falling in high demand seasons, or leap years with an additional day, will have more points required to book all the rooms than there are total points.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly.