Looking for Advice....

[Marchand63]

Bingo!!!

Next question- How much do you think it would have cost to stay in her original home for 19 years?

How much do you think an apartment elsewhere would have cost for 19 years?

A home has to be maintained to appreciate-who gets the appreciation?

OMG So it is about money after all. Good for you, for finally admitting it.

 

[appleplie]

Sorry, but it's hard to believe you're going to help your Mom financially, when you say your DH thinks you shouldn't give her anything out of the sell of the house. Your negative opinion about the way she spends money says a lot. I hoped this thread would convince you to try to get him to change his mind, until your most recent posts. It now appears you're trying to justify his opinion. For you Mom's sake, I continue to hope you'll find it within yourself to override your DH & do what's right for your Mom. You made her a promise that you should try to keep.

He actually has agreed that we are going to give her some of the proceeds and if you go back and read the very first post-I said from day one that I was going to help her with her monthly expenses. I have no problem with how she spent her money-the issue is that she is not going to be able to continue spending like she was and how obligated I am to supplement her income to keep up that level of spending.

 

[appleplie]

OMG So it is about money after all. Good for you, for finally admitting it.

Wrong! point of the post was to show that there isn't the kind of money being made that you all think. It provided a very affordable option for my mom and provided her the ability to travel. Things that she couldn't do if she stayed in her original home or rented an apartment.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

No, the brother purchased the house for under market value, lived in it for several years, made upgrades, and sold it at a profit. The OP says her mom won't be able to spend $10,000 a year sun-birding anymore. The mom got the money from her son for the sale of her house.

The brother BOUGHT the house from the mother at an under-market price and then flipped it. Did you miss that part? Nevermind - this really doesn't matter all that much to me or probably you either. OP can come back and speak for herself if she wants. Peace-out.

That is what was said later in the thread. In her first post, she said her siblings (pleural) got a payout.

Later she said the house was sold to the one sibling and he flipped it.

It is hard to tell which it was, as many posters have pointed out. And it is pertinent to the story.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that it's her house. I'm really trying to not have any opinions on this thread because it would be so wrapped up in my own emotion of how I feel about my own mother and how things are done without question in my family.


As for the updates-I think some posters do change their tune to make themselves look better. I also think that sometimes folks on these boards demand a high level of detail and minutia and/or people start going off on imagined scenarios. In these cases the OP coming back to clarify or add additional info is going to look like a changing story because "why didn't you give all this info up front?"

This has happened to me. I've asked what I thought was a narrow scoped question and all of a sudden connections were being made that made my eyes spin. It's a message board, par for the course, I guess. Some people get a raw deal and some people are shady

I'm going to give you a BINGO to the bolded. Because yes, I believe that this thread has gotten so heated BECAUSE our PARENTS are often an emotional subject for all of us, whether you had a rosy childhood, or a pathetic one. It brings out a lot of emotion, and I think that's what we've seen here.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

Of course it adds value to the home - a home the OP owns. Home costs in many areas have risen quite a bit in the past 20 yrs. (Let's assume it took at least a year to plan and build it.)

Appleplie, how many square feet is her and your space that was added? I assume she has a full bath? Kitchen? Bedroom? Living room? What else? Any outdoor space like a deck or porch? Attic? Cellar?

Is it possible to still make it a legal apartment, even if it isn't now? (Often you can legally convert an interior space for a legal apartment, but you cannot add on to do it for a certain number of years.)

People rent out both legal and illegal apartments all the time, and many people have extended family living and au-pair/nanny situations, so I don't think we should assume that that space would not be wanted by anyone.

OP, as I understand it, paid taxes on the home, which presumably increased once the addition was built. Those could've been significant, times 19 years, so the OP is saying that those could've negated the money that DM initially invested in the home. In all likelihood it could've well evened out.

For many, the issue is less a financial dilemma at this point than it is an ethical one. (ETA and clearly there are two schools of thought on that!) Did DM rely on the belief that she would have a home with her daughter for a lifetime? Had she known she was going to be asked to part ways, would she a) have invested her money in this home in the first place or b) lived a lifestyle that did not require saving money in order to pay for a future of "independent living"?

I think this is where some of the scuffle is around the financial aspect (don't get me wrong there is a definite moral aspect but the OP asked purely about the financial with regard to the addition). I think everybody is envisioning something different. I'm envisioning something much smaller than the second full apartment you described. Basically something that would have to be used as storage or a crafting room due to zoning. That makes a huge difference in terms of the current added value.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that it's her house. I'm really trying to not have any opinions on this thread because it would be so wrapped up in my own emotion of how I feel about my own mother and how things are done without question in my family.


As for the updates-I think some posters do change their tune to make themselves look better. I also think that sometimes folks on these boards demand a high level of detail and minutia and/or people start going off on imagined scenarios. In these cases the OP coming back to clarify or add additional info is going to look like a changing story because "why didn't you give all this info up front?"

This has happened to me. I've asked what I thought was a narrow scoped question and all of a sudden connections were being made that made my eyes spin. It's a message board, par for the course, I guess. Some people get a raw deal and some people are shady

I've also gotten into a major discussion on a post that wasn't even a question. It happens. I'm still not a fan of that.

In this case, the OP asked a question. When people replied that they felt what she was doing to her Mom wasn't right, she changed the story to make her Mom look difficult. Some people bought into that, but it's usually due it it fitting their agenda. In reality, very little, if anything, has disproved the original post. The situation appeared very clear from the beginning.

 

[appleplie]

I've also gotten into a major discussion on a post that wasn't even a question. It happen. I'm still not a fan of that.

In this case, the OP asked a question. When people replied that they felt what she was doing to her Mom wasn't right, she changed the story to make her Mom look difficult. Some people buy into to that, but it usually fits their agenda. In reality, very little, if anything, has disproved the original post. The situation appeared very clear from the beginning.

Please re-read my original post as I stated mom was difficult right from the beginning. There was no change to fit the agenda. And I now totally get that people have very strong emotional opinions about this. They don't have to agree with me about my mom-no two situations are identical and what works for one family may not work for another. Enough said about that. But just because I'm not doing things the way they think I should does not make it okay to assume that everything is being done for personal financial gain.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

He actually has agreed that we are going to give her some of the proceeds and if you go back and read the very first post-I said from day one that I was going to help her with her monthly expenses. I have no problem with how she spent her money-the issue is that she is not going to be able to continue spending like she was and how obligated I am to supplement her income to keep up that level of spending.

From the first post, you said that he didn't want to give her any money out of the sell of the house. If you were going to help support her, you could give her what she paid on the house plus the increase in market value on the home over the past 19 years. It's not that complicated. IMO, if you don't want to keep the promise of a permanent home, that's the least you can do. Is it possible to find a smaller home with a Mother In Law suite in the new area you want to live in? I know that's not available everywhere. If it's impossible, I think you owe her the amount she paid for her living space + increase of market value on her space. All of the other justifications are just that & shouldn't be considered. Bottom line... If Mom can live alone now, she definitely could have 19 years ago.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I realize after re-reading how it came across.
My point was that if we install an in-ground pool, fencing, patio, walkway. Hardwood floors, etc that also increase the value of the home-who gets this? This is all hypothetical now because I was always going to help her and I am going to talk a professional concerning what a fair lump sum should be. She is getting taken care of. That's all my very first post was asking. Would the answer be different if it weren't my mom?

Maintenence is not to me adding a pool, fencing, patio, walkway or hardwood floors unless it's already there and you're just replacing/repairing. Those are more or less upgrades if you're just plain adding them. And some things (like a pool) can negatively impact your home's ability to sell depending on your area.

To me no the answer wouldn't change if it wasn't your mom. It's about expectations and how things went. Continual financial security may not be what you would give your good friend who moved into your house 19 years ago but paying them back for the addition of the house would be if I suddenly reneged on my assumed agreement that it was to be permanent.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think this is where some of the scuffle is around the financial aspect (don't get me wrong there is a definite moral aspect but the OP asked purely about the financial with regard to the addition). I think everybody is envisioning something different. I'm envisioning something much smaller than the second full apartment you described. Basically something that would have to be used as storage or a crafting room due to zoning. That makes a huge difference in terms of the current added value.

I am curious too. Our in-law apt is 400 square feet. It has a bedroom, full kitchen, living room and bathroom with washer/dryer, along with an attic, cellar, and outdoor living space in both the front and back, designed so my DM could sit on the porch and talk to people going by out front, or have private space in the back. It is a legal apartment and I've been contacted by people looking to rent it, so it is desirable here. An architect (friend) designed it and it is handicap accessible (which wasn't necessary for 22 years but is now, in the past year). I mentioned before, we know lots of people who have built these on to their childrens' homes. Ours is one of the smaller ones; most are bigger. My FIL has a full three story house added onto one of DH's sibs' houses. And he is dug in there, not going anywhere.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Please re-read my original post as I stated mom was difficult right from the beginning. There was no change to fit the agenda. And I now totally get that people have very strong emotional opinions about this. They don't have to agree with me about my mom-no two situations are identical and what works for one family may not work for another. Enough said about that. But just because I'm not doing things the way they think I should does not make it okay to assume that everything is being done for personal financial gain.

There were many changes throughout the thread, but I don't want to get into an argument with you. Nothing appears to be getting through. My last post sums up my feelings on the matter.

 

[lovemygoofy]

OP, I'm not even going into the money thing. You'll do what you want.

I worry about the details. I'm a caretaker for my mom long distance and currently recovering in my home.

Does your mom drive? Pay utilities? Have furniture for her own place? Do you help with her medical issues or medicine challenges?
Do you expect to hand all this over to her and the new place she is going to live? Does this place have a meal plan? Will she need to make her own meals
or provide her own groceries? Do you know everything that is included? There is upcharge and surcharge for many extra services that you think are provided.
What happens if she falls ill or needs more specialized care? Is this a transition facility?

The details is what can kill someone especially if they can't really do much for themselves. I have a mom with a HIGH HIGH anxiety problem. She can function but she also almost has a nervous breakdown
paying bills every month and I do have to supplement her.

This is so much more than money and where your mom lives. This is the total care of someone that has not had to do for themselves in almost 20 years.
Your conversation needs to be about much much more than just where she is going to live.

If you do decide to give her return on investment or whatever, I suggest you put it in a joint account together so you can help her pay bills as she needs to because this is going to be very challenging transition for her.

You have to talk about all this with your mother. No one would want plans made about them and not be included. It doesn't matter how crappy the conversation is or how difficult the person is. They deserve that respect.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Wrong! point of the post was to show that there isn't the kind of money being made that you all think. It provided a very affordable option for my mom and provided her the ability to travel. Things that she couldn't do if she stayed in her original home or rented an apartment.

If your mother had kept her house, it would very likely be worth more now than when she sold it 19 years ago.

 

[appleplie]

I am curious too. Our in-law apt is 400 square feet. It has a bedroom, full kitchen, living room and bathroom with washer/dryer, along with an attic, cellar, and outdoor living space in both the front and back, designed so my DM could sit on the porch and talk to people going by out front, or have private space in the back. It is a legal apartment and I've been contacted by people looking to rent it, so it is desirable here. An architect (friend) designed it and it is handicap accessible (which wasn't necessary for 22 years but is now, in the past year). I mentioned before, we know lots of people who have built these on to their childrens' homes. Ours is one of the smaller ones; most are bigger. My FIL has a full three story house added onto one of DH's sibs' houses. And he is dug in there, not going anywhere.

560 square feet if my math is correct (20 X 28) full bath, bedroom open living room kitchen. She has a basement w washer and dryer. She does not have any of her own outdoor space. Think cape cod style. The 2nd floor was left unfinished and then we finished it a few years later. It is smaller than the first floor due to slanted ceilings-pretty much like a bonus room over a garage. The apartment cannot be rented to anyone else. Due to zoning and property set back requirements-we went through a lot to get it approved. After a lengthy process-we got the approval for her to live in it and nobody else. Several of our neighbors went to bat to help us get it approved. Multi family houses are not permitted in this area.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

OP, I'm not even going into the money thing. You'll do what you want.

I worry about the details. I'm a caretaker for my mom long distance and currently recovering in my home.

Does your mom drive? Pay utilities? Have furniture for her own place? Do you help with her medical issues or medicine challenges?
Do you expect to hand all this over to her and the new place she is going to live? Does this place have a meal plan? Will she need to make her own meals
or provide her own groceries? Do you know everything that is included? There is upcharge and surcharge for many extra services that you think are provided.
What happens if she falls ill or needs more specialized care? Is this a transition facility?

The details is what can kill someone especially if they can't really do much for themselves. I have a mom with a HIGH HIGH anxiety problem. She can function but she also almost has a nervous breakdown
paying bills every month and I do have to supplement her.

This is so much more than money and where your mom lives. This is the total care of someone that has not had to do for themselves in almost 20 years.
Your conversation needs to be about much much more than just where she is going to live.

If you do decide to give her return on investment or whatever, I suggest you put it in a joint account together so you can help her pay bills as she needs to because this is going to be very challenging transition for her.

You have to talk about all this with your mother. No one would want plans made about them and not be included. It doesn't matter how crappy the conversation is or how difficult the person is. They deserve that respect.

Thank you, Tina. The devil is in the details.

 

[appleplie]

If your mother had kept her house, it would very likely be worth more now than when she sold it 19 years ago.

You are absolutely correct. But it would have cost her more monthly to stay there and she wouldn't have been able to winter in the south.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

560 square feet if my math is correct (20 X 28) full bath, bedroom open living room kitchen. She has a basement w washer and dryer. She does not have any of her own outdoor space. Think cape cod style. The 2nd floor was left unfinished and then we finished it a few years later. It is smaller than the first floor due to slanted ceilings-pretty much like a bonus room over a garage. The apartment cannot be rented to anyone else. Due to zoning and property set back requirements-we went through a lot to get it approved. After a lengthy process-we got the approval for her to live in it and nobody else. Several of our neighbors went to bat to help us get it approved. Multi family houses are not permitted in this area.

That is a very good size space. Definitely more than a sewing room! I'd think it would be desirable when you sell the house for a lot of situations - extended family, nanny, college student or someone just starting out, etc., especially since today's cost of living is so high.

ETA I've noticed around here, realtor ads scream "In Law Potential" even if it's not a legal (i.e. Rentable) set up.

 

[appleplie]

OP, I'm not even going into the money thing. You'll do what you want.

I worry about the details. I'm a caretaker for my mom long distance and currently recovering in my home.

Does your mom drive? Pay utilities? Have furniture for her own place? Do you help with her medical issues or medicine challenges?
Do you expect to hand all this over to her and the new place she is going to live? Does this place have a meal plan? Will she need to make her own meals
or provide her own groceries? Do you know everything that is included? There is upcharge and surcharge for many extra services that you think are provided.
What happens if she falls ill or needs more specialized care? Is this a transition facility?

The details is what can kill someone especially if they can't really do much for themselves. I have a mom with a HIGH HIGH anxiety problem. She can function but she also almost has a nervous breakdown
paying bills every month and I do have to supplement her.

This is so much more than money and where your mom lives. This is the total care of someone that has not had to do for themselves in almost 20 years.
Your conversation needs to be about much much more than just where she is going to live.

If you do decide to give her return on investment or whatever, I suggest you put it in a joint account together so you can help her pay bills as she needs to because this is going to be very challenging transition for her.

You have to talk about all this with your mother. No one would want plans made about them and not be included. It doesn't matter how crappy the conversation is or how difficult the person is. They deserve that respect.

My mom currently drives-not much. She goes to the grocery store and gets her hair done-things like that. She does not like to drive and is a very nervous driver. I don't think she will be driving much longer. Mom pays her own bills-and I have no idea how much money she has. I know what she has coming in-but I don't know what she has left in savings. She currently has no medical issues. She takes calcium medication and blood pressure meds. Very healthy by all accounts-never smoked, never drank. This is not a nursing care facility. It is senior housing. Everyone is independent and free to come and go. Meals are not provided. Utilities are included and 24 hour maintainence. Washer and dryer in her apartment as opposed to being in her basement currently. They do provide transportation a few days a week to Walmart and the nearby grocery store. There is a pool and a community room for bingo and other activities.

The do have a call button (additional charge) should she fall or something. Should she become ill and need care-she will be back with me.

I really have tried to do my due diligence.

 

[appleplie]

That is a very good size space. Definitely more than a sewing room! I'd think it would be desirable when you sell the house for a lot of situations - extended family, nanny, college student or someone just starting out, etc., especially since today's cost of living is so high.

ETA I've noticed around here, realtor ads scream "In Law Potential" even if it's not a legal (i.e. Rentable) set up.

I always assumed the realtor would have to make sure that everything had to be legal for bank to even allow the deed transfer-but I could be comepletely wrong.

 

[appleplie]

Hypothetical-what if mom met someone and moved out on me? Or stayed down south and I was left with her utilities and such? I mean this was supposed to be forever right?

I am really not trying to be a jerk-I already know what I'm doing for mom. Just playing into to all those that think it's something more than it is.