Looking for Advice....

[because]

Why should the siblings have gotten something from mom and the OP has to pay her portion back? How is that fair? If OP should pay her share back, then so should the siblings.

Family meeting is needed immediately. OP has carried the load for 19 years. It's time for the rest of the family to step up.

I can't imagine a grownup being so childish and needy. We lost my grandmother 40 years ago. Grandfather had no clue how to do any household tasks. My mom and my aunts taught him how to cook, do laundry, etc... He lived for another 15 years on his terms. Sure he burned some dinners and had some laundry mishaps, but he carried on. In the OP's case that ship has sailed, but mom apparently can handle some autonomy (wintering elsewhere). A senior apartment might just be the best thing for her.

I don't envy the OP, this is a difficult situation. I don't think all the nastiness is warranted.

It doesn't really matter whether it is fair or not. It sounds like the OP did this all hastily without preparing any kind of paperwork, lease agreements or anything else 19 years ago. We don't know if Mom filed a gift on her return that year. OP may be LEGALLY, despite what is morally fair, obligated to return Mom's investment. The legal paperwork we had to fill out for my mother to accept a large amount of money from a relative was pretty detailed on the terms of the money. If none of that is in place, the OP might be up the creek regarding the money. The mom should have had a financial advisor 19 years ago, but so should have the OP.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It is not rare, but some of us did things much differently. My Dad passed away when my Mom was 58. She had not worked outside the home since before I was born, and was way over her head in regards to getting a job. SHe was a caregiver for my brothers kids, and then my sisters, and they paid her, but since my Mom was a Notch Year, her SS was very much reduced. My Dad had been ill for a long time so that impacted her as well, adn any savings they had was gone due to Dr bills. She wanted to remain in her own home so we made it so, even though financially she really would require help from us. And help we did, from helping her to maintain her home, renovating her kitchen, window, siding, insulation, carpeting, furniture, and appliances, and helping her with her car. We also made sure we got her to the hairdresser, grocery store, and we paid in ways that she did not feel badly. We did this for close to 30 years, and we never took one penny from her. I would move Heaven and Earth to have her back with me, and I would rather chew glass and die than have had her life turned upside down if I got tired of caring for her.

My husband was on the same page as I was in regards to our obligation to her. She was my Mom and she deserved as much as we could do, and he never questioned how much or why, and never asked if we would get a penny back after she was gone. My Mom taught me how to care for others, and in turn I have taught my own children, and my daughter is teaching her daughter. DH has told me that his sister wil be very fortunate if her son marries a woman whose Mom was like mine.

No one has suggested you or your family is evil. What we are wondering is how you got to this point, and why? For watever reason, you decided your Mom could not manage alone at the age of 54. You all used part of the sale of her home and even though she had money, it did not last as long as she needed. Not one of you feels compelled to return that money, and while you say you will care for her, you have not discussed a decision that is going to directly impact her. I do not think that my way is the only way, but I do firmly believe that no one should harm another, even if that harm is unintentional. You are directly responsible for the place you mother is today and you do owe her something. I dont knwo whatyour mother will think is equitable but unless you include her in the conversation, you are going to be responsible for how she ends up. Personally, I would treat my mother as an adult, and I would behave as one as well.

Our stories are very, very similar - including, even, the Notch.

I wish I had more time to post, but I don't right now.

 

[NFLDERS]

It is not rare, but some of us did things much differently. My Dad passed away when my Mom was 58. She had not worked outside the home since before I was born, and was way over her head in regards to getting a job. SHe was a caregiver for my brothers kids, and then my sisters, and they paid her, but since my Mom was a Notch Year, her SS was very much reduced. My Dad had been ill for a long time so that impacted her as well, adn any savings they had was gone due to Dr bills. She wanted to remain in her own home so we made it so, even though financially she really would require help from us. And help we did, from helping her to maintain her home, renovating her kitchen, window, siding, insulation, carpeting, furniture, and appliances, and helping her with her car. We also made sure we got her to the hairdresser, grocery store, and we paid in ways that she did not feel badly. We did this for close to 30 years, and we never took one penny from her. I would move Heaven and Earth to have her back with me, and I would rather chew glass and die than have had her life turned upside down if I got tired of caring for her.

My husband was on the same page as I was in regards to our obligation to her. She was my Mom and she deserved as much as we could do, and he never questioned how much or why, and never asked if we would get a penny back after she was gone. My Mom taught me how to care for others, and in turn I have taught my own children, and my daughter is teaching her daughter. DH has told me that his sister wil be very fortunate if her son marries a woman whose Mom was like mine.

No one has suggested you or your family is evil. What we are wondering is how you got to this point, and why? For watever reason, you decided your Mom could not manage alone at the age of 54. You all used part of the sale of her home and even though she had money, it did not last as long as she needed. Not one of you feels compelled to return that money, and while you say you will care for her, you have not discussed a decision that is going to directly impact her. I do not think that my way is the only way, but I do firmly believe that no one should harm another, even if that harm is unintentional. You are directly responsible for the place you mother is today and you do owe her something. I dont knwo whatyour mother will think is equitable but unless you include her in the conversation, you are going to be responsible for how she ends up. Personally, I would treat my mother as an adult, and I would behave as one as well.

^THIS EXACTLY!

Our stories are similar too. While my mom was with us 19 years she was with my two brothers, also adding up to the 25 years she was widowed before her own death. Kudos to you, and yours!

 

[ELKA]

We have no idea how much the OP got when Dad passed, and how much the addition cost or what it's worth, so it's sort of pointless to discuss her piece of it.

But I honestly don't understand how the siblings could have taken any proceeds from the sale of the house. Even if mom is a difficult diva and didn't want to deal with the details, I think you have to give her the benefit of the doubt at that point in life, and insist that she keep as much in savings as possible. Even if they all thought Mom would be living with the OP forever, they had no idea what her medical needs or long term care needs would be. Why not help mom get the house ready to sell for MOM's benefit? I still just can't wrap my head around all of this. No matter how difficult Mom might be.

I think the OP made some mistakes leading Mom to believe this was a permanent situation, but I also think that if it isn't working, it's a family problem that requires input from the siblings. If the siblings won't step up, then it gets really sticky. I still have a hunch Mom deserves at least some of her money back, regardless of whether the siblings step up or not.

This is the post that the OP should listen to. My Dad passed away a year ago, my siblings and I only inherited a life insurance policy, my Mom inherited the bulk of the estate including a family home. She has enough to last the rest of her life. When my Mom dies, I and my siblings will inherit the estate equally. Children aren't automatic inheritors in any will, the spouse is always the main one unless specified in a will. When the family sold the home and took the money they denied the mother an income that would have let her live in any style she wanted. It really doesn't matter if she doesn't know how to change a lightbulb, either she could have learned, she could have paid someone to help her or the family could have done it when they visited.

 

[luvsJack]

Didn't the OP say that her siblings bought the house and then flipped it? That's not the same has selling it and just taking the proceeds.

Personally I would have chosen to flip it and put the proceeds in an account for Mom's care so I don't disagree with what some have said

 

[mom2rtk]

Didn't the OP say that her siblings bought the house and then flipped it? That's not the same has selling it and just taking the proceeds.

Personally I would have chosen to flip it and put the proceeds in an account for Mom's care so I don't disagree with what some have said

OP said the siblings bought it at a reduced rate and flipped it. I still don't understand how that happens with the kids making any money off of it at all and leaving Mom without ample funds to last the decades she had before her.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The OP offered up much more details than was ever needed given the question of "do I owe my mom any $$?" That's on the OP and they didn't have to respond with more details on x,y,z.

No, posters haven't been mean but they have been picking up on the language, explanations, added details, depictions of the mother plus the siblings plus the husband. There have been what really does seem like inconsistencies.

In the original post the OP mentioned what appears to be the actual reason for their thread: "DH does not feel that DM is entitled to any of the proceeds and I’m not sure." What does knowing how to change a lightbulb, set a clock, etc have to do with "do I owe my mom any $$ if I sell my house?" ? Along with what does explaining the characteristics of the mother, the relationship the OP has with her mother, along with the siblings and the husband. It doesn't really but the OP inserted details here and there for what reason I don't know.

So if the real question was "do I owe my mom any $$" the advice of getting legal knowledge on the matter is probably the best one. Moral obligation talk in this type of complicated, obviously several decades worth of issues, situation to me is only really effective if you actually have all sides present and their voices/opinions heard and I very much doubt the OP's husband, the OP's mother and the OP's siblings are on the DIS. This entire thread should have been discussed from the beginning with the people actually involved.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

Why should the siblings have gotten something from mom and the OP has to pay her portion back? How is that fair? If OP should pay her share back, then so should the siblings.

Family meeting is needed immediately. OP has carried the load for 19 years. It's time for the rest of the family to step up.

I can't imagine a grownup being so childish and needy. We lost my grandmother 40 years ago. Grandfather had no clue how to do any household tasks. My mom and my aunts taught him how to cook, do laundry, etc... He lived for another 15 years on his terms. Sure he burned some dinners and had some laundry mishaps, but he carried on. In the OP's case that ship has sailed, but mom apparently can handle some autonomy (wintering elsewhere). A senior apartment might just be the best thing for her.

I don't envy the OP, this is a difficult situation. I don't think all the nastiness is warranted.

How much did the siblings each receive? I must have missed it.

How much did the addition that they added to the house cost mom?

How much did the sibling who bought the parental home pay for the home? The OP said they paid a reduced price for it, but unless you have a bona fide offer from someone else it's just speculation on what the house could have been sold for.

Op said she can't sell the house as a legal two family, but she can still sell it as a mother-daughter home I would think. I would also think the addition has added $$$ to the home that they will receive once they sell it.

The siblings could have received a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand dollars each, while the addition to the home could have cost $100,000.

We just don't know the answer to many questions, and frankly, it's none of our business. Nor do I think the OP would be willing to divulge such personal information.

 

[luvsJack]

OP said the siblings bought it at a reduced rate and flipped it. I still don't understand how that happens with the kids making any money off of it at all and leaving Mom without ample funds to last the decades she had before her.

Oh I don't disagree at all. Very different family dynamics than we have, for sure.

Just it seemed somebody were saying they sold it without buying it first.

I do think all of the children owe the mom help in a place to live.

 

[ols386]

So you want us to believe your mother wasn't capable of setting an alarm clock or changing a light bulb, but can winter south by herself every year........ok.

I've known people who don't know how to do the simplest of things. I'm not sure exactly why, but I've seen it.

 

[okeydokey]

Since the OP has provided all care or her Mom for all these years, invariably when she tells Mom that she needs to make other arrangements she will likely be labeled the selfish bad guy by the rest of the family. In fact the OP has given her Mom the gift of 19 years of worry free care. It's time for the siblings to now do their share. I am truly wishing you the best OP, I hope you get it all straightened out so that everyone is satisfied.

 

[okeydokey]

So you want us to believe your mother wasn't capable of setting an alarm clock or changing a light bulb, but can winter south by herself every year........ok.

I know people who will be helpless when someone is around to do it for them but manage to take care of things themselves if they have to. It's just being manipulative.

 

[VandVsmama]

I know people who will be helpless when someone is around to do it for them but manage to take care of things themselves if they have to. It's just being manipulative.

Yep, it's called learned helplessness. I know someone who does this quite frequently. When no one else is around, she is able to figure things out for herself. Whenever someone else is there, she suddenly becomes completely helpless and insists that she can't drive herself someplace (she needs someone to drive her). Anyone who comes over to visit gets asked to change a lightbulb, but she is able bodied and can do it herself and has done so many times. She tends to her own garden, but whenever a man is around, she has the guy take care of her yard work duties...relative, friend, neighbor, it doesn't matter. She is equal opportunity with the helpless act.

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes so many times, I never would have imagined that anybody would put on an act like that for so long. So yeah, I can totally see a family dynamic like the OP has described.

 

[AquamarineSteph]

First of all, I am very sorry that the OP finds themselves in such a difficult situation. I know that my experience won't matter, but I feel compelled to share it anyway.

My mother was always the one who did the practical stuff around the house. She changed the lightbulbs. She contacted repair people. She did work, but only before my birth and after my marriage. My father - the one who held a job for the entire time - couldn't boil water to save his life. Literally. When my mother passed away, he had no clue how to fend for himself. How to change a lightbulb. He knew how to do what he'd done all those years - take out the trash, do the laundry (yes, really), and earn money. Anything else upset him b/c he had no clue how to handle it.

If the OP's surviving parent was a father, instead of a mother, would we still find it as upsetting that he doesn't feel comfortable handling everything?

 

[powellrj]

Since the OP has provided all care or her Mom for all these years, invariably when she tells Mom that she needs to make other arrangements she will likely be labeled the selfish bad guy by the rest of the family. In fact the OP has given her Mom the gift of 19 years of worry free care. It's time for the siblings to now do their share. I am truly wishing you the best OP, I hope you get it all straightened out so that everyone is satisfied.

See I don't believe this because I think she provided back-up child care help over the years. OP said she didn't provide as much as you would think whatever that means. She also said she wintered south, so during those times OP didn't provide any care. I just think the kids are older and gone, so OP doesn't need mom anymore, so bye,bye mom.

 

[ELKA]

First of all, I am very sorry that the OP finds themselves in such a difficult situation. I know that my experience won't matter, but I feel compelled to share it anyway.

My mother was always the one who did the practical stuff around the house. She changed the lightbulbs. She contacted repair people. She did work, but only before my birth and after my marriage. My father - the one who held a job for the entire time - couldn't boil water to save his life. Literally. When my mother passed away, he had no clue how to fend for himself. How to change a lightbulb. He knew how to do what he'd done all those years - take out the trash, do the laundry (yes, really), and earn money. Anything else upset him b/c he had no clue how to handle it.

If the OP's surviving parent was a father, instead of a mother, would we still find it as upsetting that he doesn't feel comfortable handling everything?

I don't care what gender the surviving parent is, and what level of competency that parent shows. If they don't have either Alzheimer's or Dementia, and can live alone in an apartment or home, the assets that they have at the time that the spouse dies should go to the surviving parent so that they can live the rest of their lives in comfort and not worry where they are going to live or that it will be taken away. The OP made sure we knew how incompetent her mother is, how she didn't save for the future, neglecting the fact that she and her siblings bought the house at a lower market value from their mother, flipped it and divided the money that the mother could have used for her own life. The OP also said at that time the arrangement was going to be permanent, then changed their minds when the neighborhood was no longer comfortable to them and as an aside their relationship is not good and has never been good. People have a right to change their minds and arrangements, I feel that if it is going to affect someone else, they should discuss the issue as soon as possible. The money from selling the house should have been invested for the mother and her life.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Didn't the OP say that her siblings bought the house and then flipped it? That's not the same has selling it and just taking the proceeds.

It's not completely clear.

This is what she said, bolded.

I think the reason my husband feels that we don't owe her is the fact that my siblings have already received a payout from the sale of her original home. My share was her investment in my home that I would retain upon her death. Along with the resentment that they're not here helping out.

Nobody manipulated anyone. Once the suggestion was made for her to move in with us-we couldn't make it fast enough. She wanted out of her home Asa- and left as soon as she could taking only the things that she wanted from the home. She couldn't get out fast enough and wanted nothing to do with the process of preparing a home for sake or snything else. As I said in my original post-decisions were made in haste-by her as well. We were all in shock and doing our best to do what we thought was right at the time. She sold her house to my siblings at a reduced cost. She used the proceeds to finance her apartment. It was the only way she was going to be able to live with me comfortably. She would have her privacy with the space to entertain. My siblings flipped the house and made money off of it. My mother had other money that she spent. She did not have enough income coming to replenish what she spent. It cost thousand each t]year to winter in the south. This is paid for out of savings that is not replaced.

"Payout from sale" seems a little different to me than "flipped house and made money off of it", but it may be a moot point.

 

[ols386]

See I don't believe this because I think she provided back-up child care help over the years. OP said she didn't provide as much as you would think whatever that means. She also said she wintered south, so during those times OP didn't provide any care. I just think the kids are older and gone, so OP doesn't need mom anymore, so bye,bye mom.

I totally don't agree with this. The fact that the adult kids are out of the picture now, has nothing to do with it, IMO. And we do not know exactly how much the op's mom helped with kids, plus even if she did help with kids, it wasn't during winter months.

 

[Skywalker]

Since the OP has provided all care or her Mom for all these years, invariably when she tells Mom that she needs to make other arrangements she will likely be labeled the selfish bad guy by the rest of the family. In fact the OP has given her Mom the gift of 19 years of worry free care. It's time for the siblings to now do their share. I am truly wishing you the best OP, I hope you get it all straightened out so that everyone is satisfied.

I think calling it 19 years of "care" is a bit of a stretch. The mom was 54, not 94.

 

[luvsJack]

It's not completely clear.

This is what she said, bolded.




"Payout from sale" seems a little different to me than "flipped house and made money off of it", but it may be a moot point.

Rereading what she said, I guess to really say what anyone owes anyone, we would have to know how much the siblings actually made on the sell of the house compared to what was done to the OPs house and how much it ups the worth of her house.

But honestly this is her mother. Since decisions were made 19 years ago that now limit Mom's choices of where to live, IMO, the important thing is to make sure she has a place to live where she is happy.