Was closing DVC Resorts Legal?

[TraderSamWDW]

Sorry, I meant in comparison to other workers in the area.

And my point of the entire thread and discussion, is that if Disney can close these time share resorts now, outside of a government order, that would imply they can close them whenever they want, depriving owners whenever they choose. The law does not apply and not apply based on public sentiment, it applies and doesn't apply according to the actual law. During a state of emergency, the governor or county can close whatever they choose. Similarly they can institute a mandatory evacuation, making anyone full time renters, property owners, etc to vacate a given area. That has not happened, which means Disney and or DVC feel they have the power to close timeshares, which people have paid a LOT of money to buy into and maintenance fees every year at their own discretion. This is and should be very worrisome for owners.

I get it, questioning anyone right now of their decisions is not popular and we would all love for this to be over, but it doesn't mean that all laws are now irrelevant. Even in a state of emergency, there are very specific actions the president can or cannot take on a federal level and each state has laws about what the governor can and cannot do. Even if it is for a very good reason that they want to exceed them, they must still obey by the legal standard and framework set in place.

Yes it does mean they can do it whenever they want, but maybe, just maybe they thought people would understand as this time is not "normal".

I am going to do way out on a limb here and say, even though precedent has been set, Disney will just not close DVC randomly in the future because they feel like it.

Disney also has a responsibility to protect its shareholders value.

Leaving DVC open, and totally vulnerable to all that would have been criminally neglegent.

 

[Sandisw]

And again, this is a discussion. Maybe the Reedy Creek Improvement District does have the legal authority to close the resorts as a result of the state of emergency and they actually did do that. In which case DVC would be completely immune. But, I could only see that as a reason they closed, but every other timeshare in the county and most (if not all) the state is still in operation.

But that would not cover HHI, in a state that has implemented very few restrictions and I am not sure has even declared a state of emergency.

You have not found one timeshare in the county that has closed. Another thought...maybe the employer of the workers at those timeshares decided not to allow their workers to stop working.

Again, Disney is a private owned company and do not need authority to make decisions for employees. So, I think there may be two things at play here. The actual resort and the employees. DVCM has no authority over Disney so again, there could be something in the property management agreement that allows for this.

 

[TisBit]

And as of right now, this really does impact us. The resorts are closed and they are waiving the holding account status for any reservations through March 31. We have a reservation, which has been in place for a long time for the Star Wars Half Marathon. The race has been cancelled as of today. Again, I am fine with the decision, but the question is will the resorts be reopened. Will I be able to use my points?

I am willing to accept that if the parks don't open and the race that has been cancelled does not give me any reprieve from the rules of the POS and DVC. The reservation is what it is, a room. If I choose to cancel (now 26 days from start of the vacation) those points will be put in holding and bound by those rules. So, yes, the argument that I am making is actually not advantageous to me. If they keep the resorts closed and waive holding status as they have done so far, that will be an advantage for me. But I am still not sure it is "legal".

 

[TisBit]

Yes it does mean they can do it whenever they want, but maybe, just maybe they thought people would understand as this time is not "normal".

I am going to do way out on a limb here and say, even though precedent has been set, Disney will just not close DVC randomly in the future because they feel like it.

Disney also has a responsibility to protect its shareholders value.

Leaving DVC open, and totally vulnerable to all that would have been criminally neglegent.

So, if a Walmart employee or grocery store employee gets sick and dies, they are criminally negligent? Hmm, in that case they should all shut down too. I mean forget the chaos that ensues then, they need to protect their employees. I just don't get that argument. A LOT of employees are still working out there, I don't understand how Disney Cast Members have suddenly become such a valuable human compared to everyone else.

 

[TisBit]

You have not found one timeshare in the county that has closed. Another thought...maybe the employer of the workers at those timeshares decided not to allow their workers to stop working.

Again, Disney is a private owned company and do not need authority to make decisions for employees. So, I think there may be two things at play here. The actual resort and the employees. DVCM has no authority over Disney so again, there could be something in the property management agreement that allows for this.

Nope, not outside of a Government order. All the ones I have found, have announced, due to restrictions placed by the county/city/state the resort is closed as of such and such date. I have not found any reports of resorts closing (not limited operations) without that.

 

[Sandisw]

Sorry, I meant in comparison to other workers in the area.

And my point of the entire thread and discussion, is that if Disney can close these time share resorts now, outside of a government order, that would imply they can close them whenever they want, depriving owners whenever they choose. The law does not apply and not apply based on public sentiment, it applies and doesn't apply according to the actual law. During a state of emergency, the governor or county can close whatever they choose. Similarly they can institute a mandatory evacuation, making anyone full time renters, property owners, etc to vacate a given area. That has not happened, which means Disney and or DVC feel they have the power to close timeshares, which people have paid a LOT of money to buy into and maintenance fees every year at their own discretion. This is and should be very worrisome for owners.

I get it, questioning anyone right now of their decisions is not popular and we would all love for this to be over, but it doesn't mean that all laws are now irrelevant. Even in a state of emergency, there are very specific actions the president can or cannot take on a federal level and each state has laws about what the governor can and cannot do. Even if it is for a very good reason that they want to exceed them, they must still obey by the legal standard and framework set in place.

Having the Authority to shut down operations. in one situation does not mean they can do it any time. There is such a thing as negligence. So saying they can shut down because they felt like it simply because they did it for this situation is just not logical,

This can be a legal shut down without it meaning it’s cart Blanche forever. I get it. You are concerned, but without having facts to back up your concerns, it’s just all assumptions. Other timeshares not closing does not mean it’s illegal. Having no order from the governor does not mean it’s illegal. Asking owners before doing so does not mean it’s not legal. No information we have proves it is illegal.

Whether we feel it was right or wrong move for safety concerns, some of us feel the contract terms have not been violated.

 

[TisBit]

Since then, they must have learned, but they have amended the contract. I just read something about all building doesn’t have to happen, and there are elements of Florida Timeshare Law too.

There is no evidence that what happened was a violation of our contract, So compensation from Disney, etc. would be based on that. And, as I said, the only way, as an owner, you can get that information is to ask DVC to provide you with the proof that they had the authority to close on their own.

You can continue to speculate, but I really think you should try to get your answer by contacting them Because even some of the language that I believe makes it a legal decision, you interpret differently.

I am not saying I won't, right now, I won't get an answer, so waste of time. And probably get lost. And I doubt, if they don't have it, they would say we don't. They would say, yes we feel we do. I am not looking to file a lawsuit or claim anything. This purely discussion (on a discussion board) and to see if anyone had some concrete insight.

Don't get me wrong, I get it. The environment right now is you cannot question anything that has or will be done and we must protect humanity at all costs. I am ok being unpopular. In fact, funny enough, I usually have the unpopular opinion in support of Disney, but for the life of me, understanding how law works (which does not stop because someone feels it should) figure this out.

I will give you credit. Maybe there is something along the lines of a Joint Operating Agreement between DVC and Disney for cast member services at the resort. Which could cease operations and shift responsibility to Disney off of DVC. But the membership should not be left carrying the bag, it should move to Disney. Maybe when this is all over, we will get a letter spelling out what that will be.

 

[TisBit]

Having the Authority to shut down operations. in one situation does not mean they can do it any time. There is such a thing as negligence. So saying they can shut down because they felt like it simply because they did it for this situation is just not logical,

Actually, it does. That is why I go back to a legal standard, every time. Or there would need to be a clause, such as DVC can implement their own state of emergency. Without that, it means either they can always or they can't ever.

 

[Sandisw]

Actually, it does. That is why I go back to a legal standard, every time. Or there would need to be a clause, such as DVC can implement their own state of emergency. Without that, it means either they can always or they can't ever.

But, I mentioned this last night, there is actually an agreement in place that specifically outlines in detail the contract that DVCM entered into with Disney to manage the resort. The POS says DVCM authorizes Disney to take over the management and operations based on the terms of the Property Management agreement.

I would bet what you are looking for would be found in this document because it would define in more detail exactly what it means to oversee the operation of the resort. So, for me, the contract tells us as owners who will run the resorts, and that DVCM entered into a legal contract with Disney to do so. The details of that document wouldn’t be put specifically into the contract...all resorts have different...but it means it exists. It is this document that I think would protect us from Disney deciding, as the property managers to just close whenever.

But that is just me and how I view our contract I view it as the same as the part that mentions the different insurance that must be kept. But the POS doesn’t provide details of those policies..only that they must carry them.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

So, if a Walmart employee or grocery store employee gets sick and dies, they are criminally negligent? Hmm, in that case they should all shut down too. I mean forget the chaos that ensues then, they need to protect their employees. I just don't get that argument. A LOT of employees are still working out there, I don't understand how Disney Cast Members have suddenly become such a valuable human compared to everyone else.

Many states are initiating mandatory shut downs of all non essential businesses. Let's see which ones put time shares on the list of essential businesses, but leave off grocery stores. There is no perfect answer, but there is something to be said about keeping as many people as possible out of harm's way. Not to mention, trying to slow this thing down for the love of God. Disney paying its employees during this was an absolute stand up action, worthy of recognition. I just can't bring myself to cry over the POSSIBLE minor effect it could have on me.

Forcing housekeeping to work for their pay while all the other cast members stay home and get theirs would get so many discrimination law suits.

You will notice legal and right are not synonymous

You have a different point of view, and that's fine. But might want to consider hiring an attorney and seeking recompense. And if they rule you are right, you can have my share of the damages too.

 

[Sandisw]

So, if a Walmart employee or grocery store employee gets sick and dies, they are criminally negligent? Hmm, in that case they should all shut down too. I mean forget the chaos that ensues then, they need to protect their employees. I just don't get that argument. A LOT of employees are still working out there, I don't understand how Disney Cast Members have suddenly become such a valuable human compared to everyone else.

Walmart is a private company and if they wanted to close down, they certainly would be well within their legal right to shut down the stores unless ordered by the government to stay open. They haven’t because they are an essential service and realize they need to to support people. But could they legally, absolutely.

Again, it’s not about Disney CMS being more valuable. It’s about a private business deciding to make a business decision, which they have the legal right to do,

So, if Disney decides to send their employees home, because hotels are not essential, and DVC contracts with Disney to staff it’s timeshare resorts, then DVC is stuck without workers.

I know here in NY, convenience stores are allowed to stay open even given the governors newest orders, but some around me have closed anyway, Most, if not all, including Walmart, have severely cut back hours of operation to limit their workers to customers.

 

[TisBit]

Many states are initiating mandatory shut downs of all non essential businesses. Let's see which ones put time shares on the list of essential businesses, but leave off grocery stores. There is no perfect answer, but there is something to be said about keeping as many people as possible out of harm's way. Not to mention, trying to slow this thing down for the love of God. Disney paying its employees during this was an absolute stand up action, worthy of recognition. I just can't bring myself to cry over the POSSIBLE minor effect it could have on me.

Forcing housekeeping to work for their pay while all the other cast members stay home and get theirs would get so many discrimination law suits.

You have a different point of view, and that's fine. But might want to consider hiring an attorney and seeking recompense.

correct. But florida has not done that For timeshares. And the states that have, do not mandate that grocery stores MUST stay open. So, stores that stay open should be criminally negligent according to your standards

Although I find it interesting you would sue Disney if they switched your resort. But, locking you out isn’t a big deal.

Also, I am sure 10 months from now if everyone got their dues statement and it went up by the maximum allowed in their POS and DVC said it was result of the operations being shut down and paying employees, getting resorts back in operation and loss of revenue from cash bookings as a result of point transfers, people will be quite upset.

As I said. I understand the climate right now is not popular to say anything negative about what’s going on. But, I am sure that would change very quickly later. I’m not saying the dues increase would happen, that is definitely just saying, look at the past when dues increased because they had to refurb bay lake right after it opened cause they furniture sucked or other countless reasons.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

correct. But florida has not done that For timeshares. And the states that have, do not mandate that grocery stores MUST stay open. So, stores that stay open should be criminally negligent according to your standards

No, only if SOME employees are to work for their pay while others do not have to work yet still get the same pay.
How is that right by any barometer?

Also, I am sure 10 months from now if everyone got their dues statement and it went up by the maximum allowed in their POS and DVC said it was result of the operations being shut down and paying employees, getting resorts back in operation and loss of revenue from cash bookings as a result of point transfers, people will be quite upset.

As I said. I understand the climate right now is not popular to say anything negative about what’s going on. But, I am sure that would change very quickly later. I’m not saying the dues increase would happen, that is definitely just saying, look at the past when dues increased because they had to refurb bay lake right after it opened cause they furniture sucked or other countless reasons.

I wont be happy, but it is probably about number 10,200 on my list of worries.

Disney did the right thing in my opinion. It may have been illegal. But I'll take right over legal. Then again, I admit, i do tend to break the law by not following the posted speed limits.

And again, I hope this thing is getting blown way out of proportion. But If i had a choice between what is legal, and what could possible save a lot of lives but is illegal.....well....i know which option i would have taken.

 

[TisBit]

Talking about this and a potential solution to make the membership “whole” would be to readjust all points for the remainder of the year and redistribute the closure points to every room. although this could be really complicated as reservations already booked would need more points that owners may or may have.

 

[Sandisw]

Talking about this and a potential solution to make the membership “whole” would be to readjust all points for the remainder of the year and redistribute the closure points to every room. although this could be really complicated as reservations already booked would need more points that owners may or may have.

That would violate the contract for sure because point charts can’t be adjusted like that.

My solution is that owners whose points are lost due to the closure...those not returned...ie :banked points that cant be rebanked..receive reimbursements for dues., assuming this can be supported legally.

Then, per contract, suspend banking and borrowing for how many ever years they need to to equalize the system.

While I don’t believe they closed illegally, I certainly don’t think we should be accepting a fix that would definitely violate the contract.

 

[Sandisw]

New thought...

Since most DVC buildings do not have food courts..those are part of Disney resorts, could they keep it open without that?

Take VGF...if Villas remained open, how and where would owners get food? Those are all part of Grand Floridian resort, If they can’t provide that, does it create an uninhabitable situation?

DVC certainly doesn’t have the right to control or dictate hotel operations.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

New thought...

Since most DVC buildings do not have food courts..those are part of Disney resorts, could they keep it open without that?

Take VGF...if Villas remained open, how and where would owners get food? Those are all part of Grand Floridian resort, If they can’t provide that, does it create an uninhabitable situation?

DVC certainly doesn’t have the right to control or dictate hotel operations.

Possibly. but I doubt it I know in NJ in order to get a certificate of occupancy you have to have a working kitchen, which is defined as a source of potable water, and a cooking surface (so a single plug in burner qualifies). Of course this is also residential. But at least by that definition, the studios are not acceptable However, i would think it has to use a different standard. The VGF food is in an entirely different building - I dont see how that would make it ok(for the above requirements). Its not like you can have an apartment without a kitchen but say, hey you got a restaurant across the street so its all good.. I guess it just has to be an entirely different set of rules. But I would GUESS the 1 and 2 bedrooms would have to be considered inhabitable by any definition - they have the same things you get when you rent an apartment, if not more.

Perhaps Florida does not require a cooking surface and that makes the studios ok?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

New thought...

Since most DVC buildings do not have food courts..those are part of Disney resorts, could they keep it open without that?

Take VGF...if Villas remained open, how and where would owners get food? Those are all part of Grand Floridian resort, If they can’t provide that, does it create an uninhabitable situation?

DVC certainly doesn’t have the right to control or dictate hotel operations.

The larger villas have kitchens.

Occupants of those could just invite the studio guests to eat over or use their kitchens!

 

[Sandisw]

The larger villas have kitchens.

Occupants of those could just invite the studio guests to eat over or use their kitchens!

LOL. But I did forget about the kitchen. I’m sending an email today because now I want the information in more detail as to support their authority. I believe they had to make this decision.

 

[Sandisw]

Possibly. but I doubt it I know in NJ in order to get a certificate of occupancy you have to have a working kitchen, which is defined as a source of potable water, and a cooking surface (so a single plug in burner qualifies). Of course this is also residential. But at least by that definition, the studios are not acceptable However, i would think it has to use a different standard. The VGF food is in an entirely different building - I dont see how that would make it ok(for the above requirements). Its not like you can have an apartment without a kitchen but say, hey you got a restaurant across the street so its all good.. I guess it just has to be an entirely different set of rules. But I would GUESS the 1 and 2 bedrooms would have to be considered inhabitable by any definition - they have the same things you get when you rent an apartment, if not more.

Perhaps Florida does not require a cooking surface and that makes the studios ok?

Don’t know, but it still comes down to the fact that Disney shut it’s hotels, deciding to keep the workers home, and as long as there are no workers to run the timeshare, they can not legally stay open, Housekeepers would be needed from a safety level,,,and not even talking this crisis...to clean between guests, How does that happen if Disney can’t provide the timeshare unit with workers?

We shall see what information I get from DVC based on the email I sent, Not meant to be snarky, but if someone doesn’t believe this was a legal move, I’m not sure anything sent from DVC will be enough.

Its one of the reasons the POS mentions carrying business interruption insurance to protect against a shut down.