Things not going well with the DDP changes

[creativeamanda]

I couldn't disagree more.

1) it is none of my business what someone earns and to try to deliberately undermine the living they earn

2) I think $100 is probably significantly higher than the average, non-ddp, check (most people don't order apps, entrees, and desserts for everyone at the table)

3) even if they make $54/hour while actually waiting tables - they do not earn $54/hour over the course of a 40 hour work week. At the Coral Reef, one of the more expensive restaurants, lunch is only 3 hours (noon to three) and dinner seating is only 4:30 to 8:00 PM on normal days - this info comes for the Dis menu section. Most of the servers are part time to my knowledge. If you work lunches 5 days a week and can actually pull $54/hr for the three hours they are seating customers you are probably looking about $150 a day or $750 a week. This translates to about $40,000 a year - god forbid they should make a living wage.

You realize the average first year teacher in the United States does not even make $40,000/year? The average 1st year teacher in South Carolina makes less than $30,000, and the average first year teacher in Florida makes less than $32,000. In the "corridor of shame" in Dillon, SC, a first year teacher makes around $25,000 a year. Lots of people don't make a living wage. Yet I don't see as much of impassioned defense of public school teachers who are entrusted with your kids every day as I do for servers at a resort like Disney World.

 

[creativeamanda]

FWIW, I always tip between 15 and 18%, dependent on the service, with absolute minimum being 15%. But, I disagree with making me tip that. They whole point in tipping servers is to make certain that their tips with their (horrible) wages equal to at least (and hopefully more than) minimum wage. Teachers, on the other hand, do work 40 hour weeks, take at least 2-3 hours of work home nightly, and spend half of their summers getting ready for the next year. I'm just saying that our impassioned defenses should not be limited to servers and I do not want to be forced to tip 18%, especially for my family of 5 at a Disney buffet.

But, this is where I got my number from:
1900 Park Fare Buffet for 2 adults, 3 children:
$100.00
18% tip=18.00

My number is not completely off for a buffet at Disney.

 

[creativeamanda]

You dont want to go too far with those numbers as it will bring about a huge debate! But I think the OP was saying is that a mandatory service charge for all diners will eventually be in place. DDP really has little to do with it. If your eating TS, the expectation is that youll tip 15-20% Since were talking large bills at those TS restaurants, people have tip sticker shock and leave much, much less. The servers in question are therefore making considerably less than when the DDP gauranteed them 18%. Right, wrong, indifferent, they are not going to be happy campers to take that kind of pay cut and the only remedy will be to impose an across the board service charge.

Why not, then, give the servers a good wage and up the prices of the food to handle that good wage?

 

[tloft]

For a resort like Disney, forcing people to pay the 18% will do no more than make people stop using ddp. On a $100 bill (very easy in the ts restaraunts), you are talking about $18 per meal. As I said before, if the server has 3 tables and turns over the tables in an hour (also, typical), then that's $54/hour. Don't you think that's a little much?

You realize the average first year teacher in the United States does not even make $40,000/year? The average 1st year teacher in South Carolina makes less than $30,000, and the average first year teacher in Florida makes less than $32,000. In the "corridor of shame" in Dillon, SC, a first year teacher makes around $25,000 a year. Lots of people don't make a living wage. Yet I don't see as much of impassioned defense of public school teachers who are entrusted with your kids every day as I do for servers at a resort like Disney World.

I couldn't agree more - but I don't really see what that has to do with how servers should be tipped. As part timers I'm sure most have no benefits. In fact, I read posts by cast members that couples usually try to get one bartending/waiting job for the money and one gets full time position for the benefits.

By the way, from http://ed.sc.gov the average salary in Dillon 1 is $43,242, Dillon 2 is $42,630 and Dillon 3 is $44,739. My children are in a public school in SC with an average salary of $44,665. (I am not in any way disputing your first year numbers - I just don't think they tell the whole story). A lot of people would consider the benefits (generally much better than anything available in the private sector) and non-traditional work year another bonus. By the same logic that you feel the waiters pay is so outrageous, teachers are earning around $30/hr - on the average - in SC public schools. I firmly believe that teachers are underpaid - I just think that being aware of that is a rather cheap way to rationalize undertipping a server.

 

[creativeamanda]

I couldn't agree more - but I don't really see what that has to do with how servers should be tipped. As part timers I'm sure most have no benefits. In fact, I read posts by cast members that couples usually try to get one bartending/waiting job for the money and one gets full time position for the benefits.

By the way, from http://ed.sc.gov the average salary in Dillon 1 is $43,242, Dillon 2 is $42,630 and Dillon 3 is $44,739. My children are in a public school in SC with an average salary of $44,665. (I am not in any way disputing your first year numbers - I just don't think they tell the whole story). A lot of people would consider the benefits (generally much better than anything available in the private sector) and non-traditional work year another bonus. By the same logic that you feel the waiters pay is so outrageous, teachers are earning around $30/hr - on the average - in SC public schools. I firmly believe that teachers are underpaid - I just think that being aware of that is a rather cheap way to rationalize undertipping a server.

The average salary for Dillon 1, 2, and 3, are those numbers because the football coaches make so much (the part-time coach in Dillon 1 makes $25,000 just for coaching) and there are several National Board Certified teachers in the district. My husband has been in Dillon 1 for 8 years--his salary, I can assure you, is less than $40,000/year.

I don't undertip servers. I just disagree with being forced to tip a certain amount. I tip, as previously stated, 15-18%, dependent on the quality of service. But don't force me to tip 18% to someone before I recieve services from them. Saying that I rationalize underpaying a server is not giving the entire story. Saying that I disagree with being forced to tip a certain amount is more along the lines. If WDW feels it is necessary to make me tip a certain amount, why wouldn't they just increase the salary of the servers (which is not even a salary) and increase our base food prices? WDW restaraunts certainly charge enough for food to raise the prices on each item $1-2 and pay their servers the difference, ending the whole debate.

 

[tloft]

I'm just saying that our impassioned defenses should not be limited to servers

Your posting on a Disney discussion board on a sub forum about restaurants and the dining plan. Did you really expect to see interjections about how we support our teachers?

 

[mstew99]

Like I said on my post on the previous page, I don't think the price of food should determine tips. An excellent waiter at a cheap place doesn't deserve less of a tip just because they work someplace where the food is really cheap, just as a so so waiter doesn't deserve a big tip just because they work someplace where the food is very expensive.

 

[tloft]

The average salary for Dillon 1, 2, and 3, are those numbers because the football coaches make so much (the part-time coach in Dillon 1 makes $25,000 just for coaching) and there are several National Board Certified teachers in the district. My husband has been in Dillon 1 for 8 years--his salary, I can assure you, is less than $40,000/year.

I don't undertip servers. I just disagree with being forced to tip a certain amount. I tip, as previously stated, 15-18%, dependent on the quality of service. But don't force me to tip 18% to someone before I recieve services from them. Saying that I rationalize underpaying a server is not giving the entire story. Saying that I disagree with being forced to tip a certain amount is more along the lines. If WDW feels it is necessary to make me tip a certain amount, why wouldn't they just increase the salary of the servers (which is not even a salary) and increase our base food prices? WDW restaraunts certainly charge enough for food to raise the prices on each item $1-2 and pay their servers the difference, ending the whole debate.

We can go back and forth on numbers all night - but at Gordon Elementary the average salary is $41,620/year and is certainly not inflated by coaches salaries. I'm sorry if you feel your husband is underpaid - I know SC has automatic pay increases based on graduates degrees held - don't know if that is part of the problem.

I've gone on at length in other forums why going to price inclusive is not pratical so I'm not doing it again. I was fairly detailed about it in the "My Rant on Tipping" forum, if you care.

Why do you feel so strongly about the semantics of the situation. You're willing to pay 18% more if its built in the price but don't like it if they call it an auto-gratuity. It's really the same thing.

 

[tloft]

Like I said on my post on the previous page, I don't think the price of food should determine tips. An excellent waiter at a cheap place doesn't deserve less of a tip just because they work someplace where the food is really cheap, just as a so so waiter doesn't deserve a big tip just because they work someplace where the food is very expensive.

Like any industry you work your way up, if you are good and aren't making good tips you go somewhere else. I used to headhunt staff personally at exactly those kind of places. If you find a really good waitress at a greasy spoon/inexpensive restaurant who has been there for a long time, you would probably be surprised how much they actually make. At my local dive/diner I almost always tip 100% on my late night $5 hashbrowns and coffee and have on more than one occassion just left a $20 bill on the counter. I'm certainly not rich and certainly not showing off, I just greatly appreciate having a pleasant place to go where I'm treated well by the staff and am happy to throw a little extra around as thanks. And I know most of the people I go with do the same thing.

 

[creativeamanda]

We can go back and forth on numbers all night - but at Gordon Elementary the average salary is $41,620/year and is certainly not inflated by coaches salaries. I'm sorry if you feel your husband is underpaid - I know SC has automatic pay increases based on graduates degrees held - don't know if that is part of the problem.

I've gone on at length in other forums why going to price inclusive is not pratical so I'm not doing it again. I was fairly detailed about it in the "My Rant on Tipping" forum, if you care.

Why do you feel so strongly about the semantics of the situation. You're willing to pay 18% more if its built in the price but don't like it if they call it an auto-gratuity. It's really the same thing.

Your number for Dillon's districts are wrong:
Dillon 1:
https://ed.sc.gov/topics/researchandstats/schoolreportcard/2007/District/D1701999.pdf It is less than 39,000 for Dillon 1

Dillon 2:
https://ed.sc.gov/topics/researchandstats/schoolreportcard/2007/District/D1702999.pdf
less than $42,000

Dillon 3:
https://ed.sc.gov/topics/researchandstats/schoolreportcard/2007/District/D1703999.pdf
less than 39,000.

At, say, $40,000, this is (calculate 8 hours per day, 190 days per year): $26.32 per hour

The average US salary for a server is $16,530 (http://www.cbsalary.com), but as you stated, servers at WDW work 3 hours a day on average. That is about $22.00 per hour (reported earnings--my mother in law when she was a server at the Elite Epicuran in Columbia certainly did not report all of the money she made a night to the IRS--some of the $ became "gifts"). You tell me, is that an unfair wage?

Go ahead, pay servers a certain wage or allow people to choose what they want to tip. But don't charge tip in the same manner as a tax. That is unfair to customers. Either way, 18% is too much for a buffet in particular unless you have recieved excellent service.

 

[tloft]

Your number for Dillon's districts are wrong:

you are correct - I was pulling numbers from individual school report cards which I thought listed the district average but was instead the "schools like ours" average.

Anyway, I certainly agree teachers deserve higher pay - just don't think this forum has anything to do with it. I guess we just agree to disagree that it should have any impact on what I tip my servers. For what its worth I think 18% is a little high for a buffet anywhere (although our server at Crystal Palace on our last trip was one of the best ever and earned every bit of his $20 over the tip built into the DDP - I'll probably never see the guy again but like to believe that kind of tip encourages him to keep up that level of energy and entertainment for others) and don't particularly like auto-gratuities even though I almost exclusively tip 20% or higher at regular restaurants - I just understand the underlying motivations and don't have any resentment towards them.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I couldn't disagree more.

1) it is none of my business what someone earns and to try to deliberately undermine the living they earn

2) I think $100 is probably significantly higher than the average, non-ddp, check (most people don't order apps, entrees, and desserts for everyone at the table)

3) even if they make $54/hour while actually waiting tables - they do not earn $54/hour over the course of a 40 hour work week. At the Coral Reef, one of the more expensive restaurants, lunch is only 3 hours (noon to three) and dinner seating is only 4:30 to 8:00 PM on normal days - this info comes for the Dis menu section. Most of the servers are part time to my knowledge. If you work lunches 5 days a week and can actually pull $54/hr for the three hours they are seating customers you are probably looking about $150 a day or $750 a week. This translates to about $40,000 a year - god forbid they should make a living wage.

God forbid a server should make any less than a school teacher who has a college degree and is a mentor for our children's impressionable minds....or a policeman that puts his life on the line everyday he goes to work..etc. They would probably enjoy only working three hours a day and make $40,000 a year.

This is the attitude than fans the flames on this board......The servers that feel entitled to these wages, but in the next breath, bad mouth Disney for being a horrible, unfair employeer.

 

[tloft]

God forbid a server should make any less than a school teacher who has a college degree and is a mentor for our children's impressionable minds....or a policeman that puts his life on the line everyday he goes to work..etc. They would probably enjoy only working three hours a day and make $40,000 a year.

This is the attitude than fans the flames on this board......The servers that feel entitled to these wages, but in the next breath, bad mouth Disney for being a horrible, unfair employeer.

They don't work only three hours a day - they only get three hours of seatings (at lunch). They probably work at least an hour before and after each shift - so 2/3rds of the time they work is at the minimum wage for servers - or whatever it is. As usual you read whatever you want into things.

And I'd like you to find anything you can attribute to me that remotely implies anything in your first paragraph. You are being purely inflammatory.

 

[DiszyDean]

God forbid a server should make any less than a school teacher who has a college degree and is a mentor for our children's impressionable minds....or a policeman that puts his life on the line everyday he goes to work..etc. They would probably enjoy only working three hours a day and make $40,000 a year.

This is the attitude than fans the flames on this board......The servers that feel entitled to these wages, but in the next breath, bad mouth Disney for being a horrible, unfair employeer.

I have followed this thread somewhat but it seems to have evolved into a debate as to whether servers deserve to make what they make. The last time I checked, we live in a free society where if you are a server and are ambitious and work hard enough, you deserve to make what you make. The last time I checked, policemen, firemen and teachers do not do what they do for the money (and that probably goes for a lot of servers too). I think it is a ridiculous argument to compare the professions and not a reason for degrading or discounting what servers do. Most work very hard and help to support the economy in this country which eventually pays for the blessing of having teachers, policeman and firefighters.

Does anyone really think servers only work 3 hours a day and make 40K per year? That is not even in the ballpark of realistic.

I think it is quite a general and broad statement to say that servers "bad mouth" their employers by the few you may have encountered. And should they feel guilty for making a living delivering your food and cleaning up your mess? Talk about a sense of entitlement...

 

[TLSnell1981]

They don't work only three hours a day - they only get three hours of seatings. They probably work at least an hour before and after each shift - so 2/3rds of the time they work is at the minimum wage for servers - or whatever it is. As usual you read whatever you want into things.

And I'd like you to find anything you can attribute to me that remotes implies anything in your first paragraph. You are being purely inflammatory.

That was a general statement as these comparisons are frequently made on this board.

Excuse me they work 5 hours a day....maybe. I've owned a restaurant, I've waited on customers and I tip well for average service and really good for outstanding service. I get irratated at the posters that feel the "poor" servers are entitled to at least their 18%...just because.

 

[tloft]

That was a general statement as these comparisons are frequently made on this board.

Excuse me they work 5 hours a day....maybe. I've owned a restaurant, I've waited on customers and I tip well for average service and really good for outstanding service. I get irratated at the posters that feel the "poor" servers are entitled to at least their 18%...just because.

I'm sure they would love to work more - it is my understanding that Disney keeps them part time to avoid benefit issues. This might be entirely wrong and the average waiter might work 40+ hours a week.

I find it more than ironic that you expect these people to be available to wait on you, probably have very high expectations of what kind of service you expect; yet begrudge these people that they can do well for themselves by making the decision to come work at WDW.

As another poster just wrote, it is ridiculous to try and punish our food service industry to resolve your frustration with what our community helpers (as they are called at my kids' elementary school) get paid.

I have also never read anyone, ever, on any thread argue that servers should get 18% no matter what. As has been said over and over again if a restaurant has a auto-grat and service is poor you should speak to a manager. Bad service shouldn't be tolerated and paid for anymore than a bad steak. A good customer who gets a bad server can get the gratuity removed. A good server who gets a bad customer has no equivalent recourse and I am sure that it is the rise of these situations that brings about more and more restaurants making this decision (and this is obviously prevalent outside of the world as well).

 

[DiszyDean]

I'm sure they would love to work more - it is my understanding that Disney keeps them part time to avoid benefit issues. This might be entirely wrong and the average waiter might work 40+ hours a week.

I find it more than ironic that you expect these people to be available to wait on you, probably have very high expectations of what kind of service you expect; yet begrudge these people that they can do well for themselves by making the decision to come work at WDW.

As another poster just wrote, it is ridiculous to try and punish our food service industry to resolve your frustration with what our community helpers (as they are called at my kids' elementary school) get paid.

I have also never read anyone, ever, on any thread argue that servers should get 18% no matter what. As has been said over and over again if a restaurant has a auto-grat and service is poor you should speak to a manager. Bad service shouldn't be tolerated and paid for anymore than a bad steak. A good customer who gets a bad server can get the gratuity removed. A good server who gets a bad customer has no equivalent recourse and I am sure that it is the rise of these situations that brings about more and more restaurants making this decision (and this is obviously prevalent outside of the world as well).

This is one of the best posts of the thread...Thanks for stating it better than I could.

 

[DiszyDean]

That was a general statement as these comparisons are frequently made on this board.

Excuse me they work 5 hours a day....maybe. I've owned a restaurant, I've waited on customers and I tip well for average service and really good for outstanding service. I get irratated at the posters that feel the "poor" servers are entitled to at least their 18%...just because.

Actually, knowing some servers personally, I can say that the better the server the longer they work and the longer the resteraunt wants them to work (up to a certain point which would qualify them for benefits). A lot of good servers often volunteer to work double shifts maybe only picking up one or two tables after the lunch rush in order to work into dinner.

And for the record, I have seen no one that has implied in any thread that servers deserve an automatic 18% for poor service. I am not sure how you can get irritated at something that was never stated. Even in auto-grat situations, if you do not feel the server deserves the 18% tip, you can have the manager remove part or all of it. As another poster stated, there is no recourse for servers to retrieve tips from cheapskates.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Yet I don't see as much of impassioned defense of public school teachers who are entrusted with your kids every day as I do for servers at a resort like Disney World

In part, at least, because these are not the School Teacher Salary message boards. Teacher pay is a VERY specific issue - as public employees, their pay comes from local, particularly property, taxes. Many, MANY communities/homeowners are reluctant to vote for Prop 2-1/2 overrides, because it means their property taxes will go up (and if you read the recent ARM thread on the Budget board, you'll see that some people already pay $1,000 a month or more).
Yes, teachers should be paid more - if DISers who feel passionately about that would work with their communities over this matter instead of comparing teachers' full-time annual salary to Disney restaurant servers part-time potential hourly pay - it MIGHT make a difference.

At any rate, I agree 100% with tloft's comment

1) it is none of my business what someone earns and to try to deliberately undermine the living they earn

In fact, I was typing the same thing when my computer shut down.

As the diner, there are several things I can do that will directly affect the amount of a restaurant's mandatory service charge:
I can choose not to patronize the restaurant.
I can reduce the size of my party, thus keeping the total spent to a level for which I'm comfortable paying an additional 18%.
I can make my menu choices to keep that service charge dollar amount at an amount I think "fair".

A 1962 episode of 'Leave it to Beaver' aired yesterday morning, in which Wally is taking his girlfriend to an expensive restaurant. The Cleavers are giving him advice, and Ward said, "It's customary to tip about 15%".

Now, I know that's television - but this wasn't just some random number the writers pulled out of the air. In 43 years, the customary tip has increased from about 0% to about 5% (depending if the diner tends to tip 15%, or 18%, or 20%). Yes, I realize menu prices have increased dramatically over that same period, but the tip percentage hasn't.

In my (unsuccessful) attempt to find any menu from thirty or forty years ago and one from the same restaurant today, for comparison, I did find this http://www.restaurantnewsresource.com/article26225.html study from Cornell which researched the answers to questions like 'Why do restaurants rely on tips instead of a flat wage to compensate waiters and waitresses?' and 'Why not build the cost of service into menu prices?'

By the way, if anybody's in the Cornell area, they DO have a library full of old and current menus.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The average salary for Dillon 1, 2, and 3, are those numbers because the football coaches make so much (the part-time coach in Dillon 1 makes $25,000 just for coaching)

And THAT is much more of a travesty - that schools/school districts value sports over actual teaching - than the invalid comparison of teachers to servers (who, for the record, might very well have college degrees; I have a sibling with a degree in Hotel/Restaurant Management who, by choice, spent more post-graduation years as a server/bartender than as a hotel manager).

Excuse me they work 5 hours a day....maybe.

As another poster indicates - two of those five hours are at server minimum wage (less than half the actual minimum wage in most states, including Florida). So that purported $54 per hour - which would only hold IF (a) the diners used the table for only an hour, including it being cleared and reset and (b) the diners ordered $100 of food... which I would be able to do only at Victoria & Albert's - averages out to $36 per hour, minus 'tip-outs'. Sounds like a lot, and hourly it is - but that server may only get three shifts a week.