The VGF 2 pricing thread

[sethschroeder]

Exactly, we bought today.. And we just could not see Riviera being worth it, even with all the bonuses. The fees are so high we’re paying less per month at grand Floridian then we would have been at Riviera

Eh its not a big enough difference to swing you one way or another IMO

VGF requires more points so that makes up some of the difference, also RIV will continue to have lower MF increases than VGF for another couple years so the gap will close on MF difference.

As an example: (1 week in October in Studio)

Room	Points	MF	Cost/Wk
RIV TS	116​	$8.3840​	$972.54​
VGF Std	158​	$7.0077​	$1,107.22​
RIV Std	139​	$8.3840​	$1,165.38​
VGF Lake	188​	$7.0077​	$1,317.45​
RIV Pref	176​	$8.3840​	$1,475.58​
VGF TP	232​	$7.0077​	$1,625.79​

So you are looking at annually:
Tower Studio (VGF has no comparison)
Standard = RIV $58/yr extra
Pref/Lake = RIV $158/yr extra
Theme Park (RIV has no real comparison - you get fireworks views from various Standard rooms but not guaranteed)

Just looking at the the price difference savings on initial purchase:
150 Points = $4/point savings for RIV ($600)
200 Points = $7/point savings for RIV ($1400)

In the end choose the resort based on the one you like. Things change and MFs have shown to continually be flat for Riviera at the current time to come close to in line with other resorts to make it fairly minor of a difference.

 

[Ruttangel]

Eh its not a big enough difference to swing you one way or another IMO

VGF requires more points so that makes up some of the difference, also RIV will continue to have lower MF increases than VGF for another couple years so the gap will close on MF difference.

As an example: (1 week in October in Studio)

Room	Points	MF	Cost/Wk
RIV TS	116​	$8.3840​	$972.54​
VGF Std	158​	$7.0077​	$1,107.22​
RIV Std	139​	$8.3840​	$1,165.38​
VGF Lake	188​	$7.0077​	$1,317.45​
RIV Pref	176​	$8.3840​	$1,475.58​
VGF TP	232​	$7.0077​	$1,625.79​

So you are looking at annually:
Tower Studio (VGF has no comparison)
Standard = RIV $58/yr extra
Pref/Lake = RIV $158/yr extra
Theme Park (RIV has no real comparison - you get fireworks views from various Standard rooms but not guaranteed)

Just looking at the the price difference savings on initial purchase:
150 Points = $4/point savings for RIV ($600)
200 Points = $7/point savings for RIV ($1400)

In the end choose the resort based on the one you like. Things change and MFs have shown to continually be flat for Riviera at the current time to come close to in line with other resorts to make it fairly minor of a difference.

I think you could make an argument that VGF will have low dues for a long time as the general fixed costs spilt over more owners now but we will see in December
I use very similar analysis but VGF likely worth more on resale market, so true cost when holding for 10 years would be different.
Tower Studios are vvv hard to get and obviously just for couples so not sure how relevant to most families.

 

[sndral]

Wouldn't it be a good thing to have title insurance? What would be the purpose in having it removed?

I opted to have title insurance removed since I was comfortable doing so w/ a direct purchase.
Title insurance protects the buyer from defects in title - like liens against the property (for example from unpaid construction costs, unpaid taxes, etc.,) or adverse claims (like disputes to ownership via a contested will or probate, or divorce property disputes) or forgery/fraud, or clerical mistakes in recording, etc..
Since DVC is creating brand new titles for the ownership interests in VGF2 one category of possible issues - from prior owners - didn’t exist & I figured the probability that the other category - from unpaid liens like construction or tax liens against DVC - to be very low & any clerical errors could be remedied.
In my resale purchases I’ve always paid for title insurance - because there were prior owners & thus the risk of adverse claims or issues w/ unpaid liens was much higher.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Wow only $91!? For 85 points they are telling me it's $333 for closing and $250 doc fee.

Yup $91. I assume yours of $333 is either wrong or for more points?

 

[MickeyMice]

GFV is a flagship hotel for WDW and I can't imagine Disney would not do everything to maintain and increase its value which is beneficial for all DVC owners.

yes, this is part of what convinced me to buy. i feel like there will always be rental/resale demand for GFV if/when i want to tap into it. congrats!

 

[CarolMN]

I know many think that buying from the developer ensures it’s not needed but the insurance helps in case something happens.

And to add, if something does turn out to be "hinky" with the title, the insurance provider will take care of it. Otherwise you are on your own. In most cases, problems with the title aren't discovered until it's time to sell. For example, Disney and County employees aren't infallible. Clerical errors happen.

I agree with Sandi. Cost relative to the total is quite minor. I am happy to pay it to transfer a very small risk that, if it happens, can turn into a very big hassle at a time I (or my heirs) don't need one.

 

[tjkraz]

I think you could make an argument that VGF will have low dues for a long time as the general fixed costs spilt over more owners now but we will see in December

Grand Floridian is adding more owners, but also picking up a larger portion of the resort's operating costs. This has happened a number of times in the past. Saratoga Springs continued to grow as it was built-out in at least 4 separate phases over the span of about 8 years. Jambo House villas opened about 2 years before Kidani. In those cases, the dues were pretty steady as the expansions occurred. It's more rooms, but also more operating costs to absorb. Equilibrium.

In the case of Riviera, it appears DVC intentional budgeted high from the start. Probably a wise thing given that it was an entirely new resort with an entirely new transportation option.

Whatever the reasons, Riviera dues have increased only seven cents in 3 years. *IF* that holds up for a couple more years, it will close the gap considerably with VGF. But that's completely hypothetical.

Right now Riviera dues are 19% higher than VGF. There's no real reason to think that gap will grow larger. It has the potential to get smaller, depending on how conservatively DVC has been budgeting Riviera.

 

[MickeyMice]

i think any comparison between VGF and RIV has to consider the significant immediate depreciation of a RIV contract due to the restrictions. i'm not madly in love with VGF over other options but i like it enough and i think it's a safe (for DVC) investment. i think you need to be a RIV superfan to buy there.

(sorry if this horse is dead)

 

[MomOTwins]

Since you are buying directly from Disney, the title doesn’t need to be confirmed. Assuming you trust that Disney is honest with you about the title being clear.. in resale market, 100% get title insurance!

I guess I'm just curious, when Disney exercises ROFR and buys back points from an owner, then sells those points to a new buyer, is the ownership history "wiped clean" or are you stuck with whatever title issues may have attached to the points under the prior owner. Since VGF2 is part of the same condo association, it occurs to me we don't really know if they are selling brand new points, old VGF1 points, or a mix.

 

[hglenn]

i think any comparison between VGF and RIV has to consider the significant immediate depreciation of a RIV contract due to the restrictions. i'm not madly in love with VGF over other options but i like it enough and i think it's a safe (for DVC) investment. i think you need to be a RIV superfan to buy there.

(sorry if this horse is dead)

I tend to go back and forth on this one. That was my original thought, however, now I feel like if I'm going to buy direct, I'll likely by RIV.... Maybe the incentives are just convincing me.... also has 6 more years on the contract

 

[DKZB]

I guess I'm just curious, when Disney exercises ROFR and buys back points from an owner, then sells those points to a new buyer, is the ownership history "wiped clean" or are you stuck with whatever title issues may have attached to the points under the prior owner. Since VGF2 is part of the same condo association, it occurs to me we don't really know if they are selling brand new points, old VGF1 points, or a mix.

This was a hotel owned and operated by Disney. It wasn't a DVC (Timeshare) property beforehand. They are not selling VGF1 Deeds.

On your deed it says the unit number and interest in the unit. Title insurance relates to the deed, not the points.

 

[tjkraz]

i think any comparison between VGF and RIV has to consider the significant immediate depreciation of a RIV contract due to the restrictions. i'm not madly in love with VGF over other options but i like it enough and i think it's a safe (for DVC) investment. i think you need to be a RIV superfan to buy there.

(sorry if this horse is dead)

So you're committing to 42 years of ownership at a resort that you're "not madly in love with" to avoid some possible future value reduction should the day arrive when you no longer wish to keep the DVC points?

Interesting.

 

[MickeyMice]

So you're committing to 42 years of ownership at a resort that you're "not madly in love with" to avoid some possible future value reduction should the day arrive when you no longer wish to keep the DVC points?

Interesting.

i'm not using the phrase offhandedly. VGF has many pluses and some minuses like any other DVC and i have plenty of opportunities to stay elsewhere on the points. and if i can sell the points readily and quite likely without losing much if any value (and probably making money, but who knows) - it's not really that much of a commitment.

 

[KTownRaider]

So you're committing to 42 years of ownership at a resort that you're "not madly in love with" to avoid some possible future value reduction should the day arrive when you no longer wish to keep the DVC points?

Interesting.

I think MickeyMice is stipulating that VGF has a better, more immediate exit strategy than RIV- thus not requiring a 42 year commitment.

ETA- sorry- didn't see MickeyMice message sent right before mine essentially stating the same point.

 

[Royal Consort]

i think any comparison between VGF and RIV has to consider the significant immediate depreciation of a RIV contract due to the restrictions.

People state this like its an accepted fact. There is currently no evidence for this. RVA resale has been holding up spectacularly well for a restricted product. Will this always be the case? We just don't know but so far it doesnt appear to buck the resale trend. I anticipate it will always be higher than SSR and OKW.

Buy any resort now direct and you will see a "significant immediate depreciation".

 

[Sandisw]

i think any comparison between VGF and RIV has to consider the significant immediate depreciation of a RIV contract due to the restrictions. i'm not madly in love with VGF over other options but i like it enough and i think it's a safe (for DVC) investment. i think you need to be a RIV superfan to buy there.

(sorry if this horse is dead)

Except the depreciation for RIV has not been worse than most in cases of being three years in from initial sales. We don't know what the future holds for them, but its not doom and gloom. There is a market for resale RIV points. Now, I am not suggesting anyone should buy it if they don't like it or don't want to stay there. But, someone who prefers RIV over VGF should not avoid it simply because of the restrictions

Also, one of the reasons, IMO, the value of VGF has had a higher resale price is that it was a small resort and to stay there required one to own. If we see 7 month bookings in the resort studios readily available for non home resort owners, I think you may see it come down in price. Not sure one should assume anything when it comes to future resale value with any DVC resort.

 

[sethschroeder]

Tower Studios are vvv hard to get and obviously just for couples so not sure how relevant to most families.

I easily got it for the first week of December. It could get harder but if booking out at 11 months so far it can be done.

(sorry if this horse is dead)

Except you are so far off base but we don't know what will occur long term.

Right now you can turn around and sell RIV between $140-$148 and thats for an active selling resort which at 150 points is $197/point or 71%-75% of the value of direct.

Long term we don't know but let's not act like RIV resale is selling terribly when it's not.

Flip side VGF was driven by lack of inventory which was just "flooded" basically doubling the size of the resort. We don't know what that will do either.

So the factual information is a little off.

Example when CCV went off the market.
Resale Mar 21 $138-$152
Incentives on 150 points $206
67%-74%

Typically 70% is about the number for resale to direct if I remeber correct.

 

[tjkraz]

i'm not using the phrase offhandedly. VGF has many pluses and some minuses like any other DVC and i have plenty of opportunities to stay elsewhere on the points. and if i can sell the points readily and quite likely without losing much if any value (and probably making money, but who knows) - it's not really that much of a commitment.

Yeah, like others have said, VGF & Riviera are no different than any other resort with respect to near-term value. Resale always settles around $30-40 per point less than direct. The VGF resale market is skewed right now because direct point came out much lower than anyone expected. Nobody is paying $180-190 per point resale when you can buy direct for under $200 and have points in your account the next day.

In fact, Riviera comes with the bonus of not only getting 6 additional years on the back end but an extra set of points on the front. Buy Riviera now with a June or later UY and you'll get 2021 points immediately with 2022 points just around the corner. With VGF, nobody gets anything until the start of their 2022 Use Year.

There are a lot of different reasons for choosing a specific resort. And I'm not saying that Riviera is a better choice for you personally.

What I am saying is that paying more up front for a resort I only kinda sorta like, in exchange for some perceived higher return down the road is not a decision I would personally make. There's no way to attach a dollar figure to it, but having booking priority at a preferred destination is one of the most valuable aspects to DVC. Regardless of whether that preferred destination is Grand Floridian, Riviera or elsewhere.

If I'm not booking my home resort at 11 months year after year, I'd load up on SSR or AKV resale points at $60 each less than VGF and take my chances at 7 months.

 

[MickeyMice]

anyone who loves RIV should buy it - I don't think that's up for debate.

but I also think a "flood" of unrestricted VGF2 points cuts into future RIV sales too.

except for occasional short lived incentives, RIV has been the only game in town if you didn't want to pay the sold-out premium. i would never have bought at RIV bc of the restrictions, but i was pursuaded to buy VGF2, and i don't think i'm alone in that respect.

 

[MickeyMice]

In fact, Riviera comes with the bonus of not only getting 6 additional years on the back end but an extra set of points on the front. Buy Riviera now with a June or later UY and you'll get 2021 points immediately with 2022 points just around the corner. With VGF, nobody gets anything until the start of their 2022 Use Year.

that's a fair point i hadn't thought of.

If I'm not booking my home resort at 11 months year after year, I'd load up on SSR or AKV resale points at $60 each less than VGF and take my chances at 7 months.

i think those contracts have been taken left and right in ROFR lately (at least SSR has been).