Point renters

[crisi]

Renting doesn't add to the booking competition at 7 months, buy where you love to stay and book at 11 months.

Bill

I would disagree, but it may just be a different angle.

I have BWV points. Now, I almost aways book BWV eleven months out - we like our resort and are happy to stay there. But lets say that I was a person who liked to sleep around - and used my own points. At seven months, I'd be giving up my BWV points and booking - say VWL - a resort we also like. That would let another person - probably someone who doesn't have BWV points, use our points.

With a healthy rental market, if I rent my BWV points, my renter isn't going to switch at seven months. If instead of being someone who generally uses my own points, I was someone who rented every other years worth of points to cruise, or just for cash because my kids had outgrown Disney and I didn't need a yearly trip, my BWV points would be stagnant to the resort.

Now, I don't think the issue is as huge as people think it is. I think most people who own the smaller/popular resorts don't rent that many points - they use them and they use them mostly at home like I do. When we've run surveys in the past, BWV and BCV owners almost always stay at their home resort - and I'd guess the same is true for VGC, VGF and the Poly (BLT I'm less certain of). But there isn't any doubt that if I don't use my own points, I'd rent them through a broker, and rent them with the eleven month window, because I pay a lot in dues as a BWV owner and I have more capital tied up in those points than someone who purchased less expensive points, I believe I have a right to the profit. I made the "investment" - its mine to use or profit from.

The flip of that though is that a lot of original - or even early resale - BWV/BCV owners are getting to the gap years - if they bought when their kids were prime Disney age those kids are heading towards college. I know because we bought our resale when BCV was opening and my kids were toddlers - and my son heads off to tech school next year. That may mean fewer trips as college bills hit and kids aren't interested, fewer points as a smaller unit works for empty nesters. That's going to put those points out on the rental market for anyone who wants to keep their contract.

I will say that the one time I rented out my points, I picked a reservation that was pre-F&W. Mostly because I didn't want the hassle of trying to book a F&W reservation for someone else. But the side effect was a room I didn't use at BWV over F&W for someone else to use.

 

[disneynutz]

In the end all DVC rooms will be booked either for an owner stay, a guest stay, a renter stay, or a Disney booking. Owning a resort and booking at 11 months enables the owner to get what they want, when they want instead of hoping for what they want at 7 months or playing the waitlist game.

Bill

 

[CarolMN]

OP - I also think renting is making it more difficult for owners to switch at 7 months. This is most evident for the more popular times & villa types. I wish it were possible to give owners priority over renters when booking for themselves, but I do not see how it is possible under the current system.

The system is first come, first served. The only way to "beat the renters" is to book as soon as the 11 month window opens. It's a rare owner who will go to extraordinary lengths to secure a reservation for a renter as soon as the window opens.. When you are left out at 11 months - such as for a studio at VGF for early December, it's because of competition from other owners who for the most part, want to stay where they purchased in a particular booking category.

Getting something at 7 months for popular resorts for popular times is just luck. You will be competing for the dwindling availability at 7 months - and renting is among the factors for the increasing competition and the decreasing 7 month availability. I don't like it either, but it is what we bought. JMHO YMMV.

 

[crisi]

OP - I also think renting is making it more difficult for owners to switch at 7 months. This is most evident for the more popular times & villa types. I wish it were possible to give owners priority over renters when booking for themselves, but I do not see how it is possible under the current system.

The system is first come, first served. The only way to "beat the renters" is to book as soon as the 11 month window opens. It's a rare owner who will go to extraordinary lengths to secure a reservation for a renter as soon as the window opens.. When you are left out at 11 months - such as for a studio at VGF for early December, it's because of competition from other owners who for the most part, want to stay where they purchased in a particular booking category.

Getting something at 7 months for popular resorts for popular times is just luck. You will be competing for the dwindling availability at 7 months - and renting is among the factors for the increasing competition and the decreasing 7 month availability. I don't like it either, but it is what we bought. JMHO YMMV.

You can do what we did. When we rented out points it was in order to rent someone else's points. I wanted HHI in the Summer for a promised Girl Scout trip. I needed a certain week, and I knew HHI in the Summer would be tough at seven months. So I rented out my own points and rented HHI from someone else. I used a broker, so I was out $3 or so per point on the transaction, but I got what I wanted. Had I been willing to work the system without a broker, I could have broken even, and maybe even made a little profit.

If you can't beat the renters - join 'em.

 

[ThunderMountain]

Thank you all for your thoughts. As I said, I have nothing against members renting their points. I do however believe that members should have priority on which resort they want to stay at up until the 7 month booking window. maybe DVC will do something about the matter in the future.
I wish you all well and hope you all enjoy your Disney trips in the future.

 

[DebbieB]

Thank you all for your thoughts. As I said, I have nothing against members renting their points. I do however believe that members should have priority on which resort they want to stay at up until the 7 month booking window. maybe DVC will do something about the matter in the future.
I wish you all well and hope you all enjoy your Disney trips in the future.

The flip side of that is what if you want to gift your son or daughter a honeymoon but have to wait until 7 months? Or a relative or a good friend? There's no way they could police who is "renting" vs "gifting".

 

[ThunderMountain]

The flip side of that is what if you want to gift your son or daughter a honeymoon but have to wait until 7 months? Or a relative or a good friend? There's no way they could police who is "renting" vs "gifting".

As I said in my original post, my concern is the on line rental sites. They are getting more and more popular on the social media posting sites. I have no problem with memebers renting to friends / family. My problem is giving complete strangers the same privileges as paying memebers. I realize it's almost impossible to police the situation.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

my concern is the on line rental sites.

Given that members are the ones making the booking, and the agents are just the go-betweens (the matchmakers, if you will; an online dating service for owners and renters), how do you propose that Disney establish that an owner is not working with an agent who is completely invisible within the transaction to Disney?

The agencies exist because owners want them to exist. Owners aren't going to spill their guts to Disney that they're working with David's if Disney attempts to crack down. Agency services save owners the hassle of having to tell someone on *********** or the DIS Rent/Trade that no, 3 months out they cannot get them AKV Value.

My problem is giving complete strangers the same privileges as paying memebers

The paying member is the one with the privilege. They are the ones who choose to rent it out. It is a real estate interest, and the deed explicitly permits an owner to do just that. There is no restriction on knowing the person/being related/having been in a frat with/etc.

You cannot and should not be relying on 7-month bookings as an owner. I say this as a Saratoga owner.

 

[tj4ua]

Point renters also sometimes dont get anything even when they try to book 11 months out. We put in a request at the 11 month mark for studio AKV Savannah view. A month and half later availability gone, but the renter site didn't find anyone to match us up with. Now only thing left is SS and we are still waiting. Started the process Feb 3rd. Being an owner is the much better way to go.

 

[bumbershoot]

IMHO I believe DVC needs to do something to make it more difficult for people to rent their points to commercial rental company's.

As has been stated, the companies are a middleman. We aren't renting points or reservations to a company. We are renting reservations for people. We have a reason to use our points for someone else, and those companies allow us to do it in a way that might feel safer to some.

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. As I said in my first post, I have nothing against members renting their points. I just think if people are renting points from a commercial site they shouldn't be able to have the advantage of booking early like a regular memeber. Just like you can book your home resort at 11 months is an advantage to you. The commercial sites should have to wait to book until some point after the 7 month window. I'm not sure why anyone would be against that. It's a win win for everyone except the people renting the points.

It's NOT a win win for someone who wants to rent a reservation made with their points *at 11 months*, and get paid for that, and know that their points will be used and they'll have half (or however much) of that money *then*, but might be blocked from that.

Please note I haven't rented a reservation nor have I rented a reservation (hmm; there's got to be a better way of saying that LOL). But I have *never* had an issue with the rental situation at all, partially b/c I just don't care, and partially because someday maybe I'll be on the *wanting to get rid of our points* side of the equation, and I don't want there to be an issue with it.

I'll be trying to switch my Bay Lake reservation for either GF or Poly in 3+ months, and while I hope I get it (I am sooooo over the stink of the lobby at my home resort), if I don't, I don't care if a member is staying there, a member's cousin is staying there, or someone the member rented the reservation is staying there. Members have the right to make reservations for people. Doesn't matter who those people are or how long they've known them. I'm OK with that, as a member.

 

[Minniesgal]

I'm seeing more and more information on social media in regards to renting dvc points to non members. As a member I find it frustrating that resorts are getting booked up by people renting points. Can anything be done to stop the commercial renters from renting points until after the 7 month booking window. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against being able to rent out your points, I just think memebers should get first priority to the 7 month booking window.

Members do have first priority over rooms it is members who are booking rooms to rent out to renters

You can't have a system that gives priority to one owner over another

TO BE HONEST i think buy where you want to stay and don't buy expensive Poly points to stay at SSR are leading to more and more people only staying at home resort thus less availability at 7 months. I know we rarely stay outside of home now.

 

[Wakey]

If you could not rent your points they could go to waste. It is impossible to distinguish between renting and gifting points at DVC. So the only solution to the perceived problem would be a total ban on anyone booking at 11 months save for a room with those on the contract. This would cause massive problems with tons of unbooked inventory 7-11 months with no one quite sure what occupancy would be, a frenzy at 7 months, and most DVC owners mightily hacked off that their mother, brother, cousin, friend etc could not make arrangements at 11 months. In other words, forget your ideas, it won't happen. Cheers.

 

[crisi]

I've been saying this for years....and they haven't done it so that's an indication they won't - they could make renting less attractive. They could only allow members and guests staying with the member (either staying in the same room, or staying in a room booked on points as the same time as a member), access to the dining plan and magical express. They could make it known that members get room priority - if you don't have a member staying in the room, you have a better chance at the dumpster view. They could put a penalty on Fastpasses for people without a member on their points trip - say a ten day booking delay. They could charge non members for parking. Most of those wouldn't be showstoppers for someone letting their parents or child use their points (sure, people would complain, but the value of most of that - well maybe not the Fastpass booking - isn't huge), but would discourage renters. And its all contractually allowable, as I understand the contract. If they'd ever do anything like this, it won't be because members are having trouble booking, it will be because DVC rentals are eating enough of their hotel business for them to take action.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I've been saying this for years....and they haven't done it so that's an indication they won't - they could make renting less attractive. They could only allow members and guests staying with the member (either staying in the same room, or staying in a room booked on points as the same time as a member), access to the dining plan and magical express. They could make it known that members get room priority - if you don't have a member staying in the room, you have a better chance at the dumpster view. They could put a penalty on Fastpasses for people without a member on their points trip - say a ten day booking delay. They could charge non members for parking. Most of those wouldn't be showstoppers for someone letting their parents or child use their points (sure, people would complain, but the value of most of that - well maybe not the Fastpass booking - isn't huge), but would discourage renters. And its all contractually allowable, as I understand the contract. If they'd ever do anything like this, it won't be because members are having trouble booking, it will be because DVC rentals are eating enough of their hotel business for them to take action.

TBH, I think executing some of these things would require considerably more coordination than Disney typically exhibits. While a lot of this could be facilitated through decent IT systems, those IT systems would cost $$$ that you'd be paying in dues, AND it would require actually caring about the systems working, which has been a notably weak spot for Disney as a whole.

 

[Wakey]

And your contract value would likely reduce quite a bit, as renters would probably disappear with such onerous policies. Thus would potentially cost us all money. DVD also want none members in I suspect, what better way to sell new contracts?
DVC is designed to be near 100% occupancy year round and they've sold enough points to achieve that. So assuming people will not just bin unused points wasting thousands of dollars a year, they'll still rent them and us members will just get less money as we would have to give renters discounts as the product is poorer.
So such policies won't work. They'll just make us members poorer. Our contracts could be worth less if we sell, and we get less rental income for points.
Renters are not stealing away your usage, they are using their own percentage ownership in the real estate they own to make money when they cannot use the points.
Quite a different story if commercial enterprises were renting simply as a business but I haven't seen any evidence of that and its prohibited anyway.

 

[mustinjourney]

I think in past years a lot of owners didn't know they could rent out their points or where to do it, like renting on disboards..... Probably a lot of points went unused, we bought two resale contracts fully loaded, and I'm guessing that if the previous owners hadn't sold their contracts they wouldn't have used their points.

so OP is essentially mad the market is more efficient.

 

[mustinjourney]

Commercially renting resrvations is not permitted by DVC. The websites that you're calling commercial websites are only acting as a middle man between the DVC owner and the renter. The reservations are made by the owner on behalf of the renter. The middle man collects the payment, keeps a portion and pays the owner. The company does not own the points and does not make any actual reservations. There's no way for DVC to determine whether an owner is making the reservation for a family member or for someone using a rental service. I don't know how they could enforce the kind of restriction you want to see placed on rented reservations.

exactly! The only true commercial renters wouldn't bother with the "commercial sites" b/c it would eat into their profit margins.

 

[crisi]

TBH, I think executing some of these things would require considerably more coordination than Disney typically exhibits. While a lot of this could be facilitated through decent IT systems, those IT systems would cost $$$ that you'd be paying in dues, AND it would require actually caring about the systems working, which has been a notably weak spot for Disney as a whole.

Yep. Its all doable, but not free. Therefore, if Disney does it, it will be because it benefits them (and we will probably still have to pay for it). Not because I can't get a room at VGF. And I'm not suggesting that they should, or that I think its a good idea - just if I wanted to slow the rental market, and I were Disney, its what I would do.

 

[ThunderMountain]

Call these on line site whatever you want it's all semantics. They are a conduit for people wanting to rent dvc points and stay at delux accommodations at a cheaper price. They are everywhere on social media eventually it's going to make the 7 month window useless. It needs to change.

 

[Matty B13]

Call these on line site whatever you want it's all semantics. They are a conduit for people wanting to rent dvc points and stay at delux accommodations at a cheaper price. They are everywhere on social media eventually it's going to make the 7 month window useless. It needs to change.

I'm just wondering if you are upset that you can't book a resort that isn't your home resort at 7 months?