New 350 room hotel near Swan and Dolphin "The Swan Reserve”

[lockedoutlogic]

Right...but the details of this new thing are not known.

I'm just looking for real deal...not stats on the dolphin.

 

[jade1]

Yep, great spot to add a few days to the vacation, can't wait to hear more.

 

[focusondisney]

This could spell even more trouble for the Disney-owned Epcot resorts. Aren't the Boardwalk and Yacht &Beach resorts already struggling to fill rooms?

Can't speak about the Boardwalk, but Y&B are very popular. They don't have trouble filling rooms.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Can't speak about the Boardwalk, but Y&B are very popular. They don't have trouble filling rooms.

I didn't know that. I've read where the occupancy rate for all of their Epcot Resorts leaves something to be desired. Hopefully you are right, because the Boardwalk and Beach Club are two favorite resorts of mine and they deserve to be successful.

 

[writerguyfl]

And has the whole Marriott/Sheraton merger gone through?

The Marriott/Starwood merger was completed in September 2016.

However, unless you are a stockholder or an elite-level member of either the Marriott or Starwood frequent guest programs, you probably wouldn't know that fact. There were no major changes to the portfolio of properties for either hotel group. For a variety of reasons, Marriott decided to keep all 30 different hotel brands.

Additionally, the two frequent guest programs are still being run separately. The merger of that side of the business isn't expected until sometime in 2018.

Marriott Press Release about Merger: http://news.marriott.com/2016/09/marriotts-acquisition-of-starwood-complete/

Probably going to be some sort boutique hotel or loft style or something aimed at a different clientele- probably those attracted to the swolphin but smaller and more expensive

As someone who spent over a decade working in hotels, I wouldn't describe a 350 room hotel as "boutique". With a few exceptions like Las Vegas, a hotel with that many rooms would be considered a major hotel in any city in the world.

I do agree that this will likely be a luxury property. Something to go after the Four Seasons and Waldorf Astoria customers. I think Orlando could support another Ritz-Carlton. Or perhaps a St Regis or W Hotel.

If you have status, its waived.

According to a frequent business traveler forum I visit, resort fees for the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin hotels are no longer waived for elite-level guests. Instead, it is discounted to somewhere around $20-25/night.

 

[HopperFan]

Would that be Tischman (who warred with disney for decades), MetLife, or Starwood?

This is a classic case of "uncomplicating the complicated"

What's the land/lease deal?

I just want to to know the geek stuff...what's the ransom?

Right...but the details of this new thing are not known.

I'm just looking for real deal...not stats on the dolphin.

Sorry, I thought when you asked about land/lease deal you were referring to the Swan/Dolphin ....

because the land that the new hotel will be located on is part of the long term land lease deal with Tishman/Swan&Dolphin.

But given they have different brands in their portfolio it doesn't mean it will be a Sheraton or Westin.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Sorry, I thought when you asked about land/lease deal you were referring to the Swan/Dolphin ....

because the land that the new hotel will be located on is part of the long term land lease deal with Tishman/Swan&Dolphin.

But given they have different brands in their portfolio it doesn't mean it will be a Sheraton or Westin.

Yeah...I get that...just wondering if anyone had a concrete plan/announcement. This is definitely still in the conceptual phase.

The whole relationship with tischman/itt/etc has been a sorted tale...I would imagine that nearly everything is for sale/negotiable under the golden parachute administration these days.

 

[tlmadden73]

I didn't know that. I've read where the occupancy rate for all of their Epcot Resorts leaves something to be desired. Hopefully you are right, because the Boardwalk and Beach Club are two favorite resorts of mine and they deserve to be successful.

I would also suspect that the Epcot resorts (and this new hotel) will become infinitely more popular once the Epcot and DHS revamps are done. In 4-5 years, if all the new attractions will be as awesome as we suspect, being within walking distance of TWO of the "freshest" parks with the most new attractions will be a hot ticket.

Any of the resorts that will now connect to those parks (via the new gondola) (Pop, Art of Animation, Carribbean beach), etc.
You'll basically have more resorts/hotel rooms easily accessible to Epcot and DHS via Disney transport than there are hotels that are on the monorail line).

Their popularity probably won't surpass MK, but I think AK (despite just getting Pandora) will be left in the dust in terms of popularity of the parks.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Don't know the occupancy of the boardwalk area hotels...but filling deluxes has been a "quiet" problem for a while - particulate animal kingdom, wilderness lodge, and the monorail resorts...

Look at it this way: if those rooms in the poly and wilderness lodge were filling at $500 a night...why convert? It's not like housekeeping is that expensive...

They definitely overpriced the high ends...particularly coming out of a white collar recession...so they've played catch up for awhile.

A new third party hotel does make that interesting...it will be something to watch..

 

[TheMaxRebo]

As someone who spent over a decade working in hotels, I wouldn't describe a 350 room hotel as "boutique". With a few exceptions like Las Vegas, a hotel with that many rooms would be considered a major hotel in any city in the world.

I do agree that this will likely be a luxury property. Something to go after the Four Seasons and Waldorf Astoria customers. I think Orlando could support another Ritz-Carlton. Or perhaps a St Regis or W Hotel.

certainly not a typical one, but for WDW that is pretty small - smalled one I can think of is Port Orleans French Quarter and that has over 900 rooms.

So something a bit more intimate and smaller than other options on property - with more personal service, that sort of thing. Perhaps boutique is not the best word but best I could think of

 

[amberpi]

According to a frequent business traveler forum I visit, resort fees for the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin hotels are no longer waived for elite-level guests. Instead, it is discounted to somewhere around $20-25/night.

I was there Sept. 17-23 and it was waived. That's all I can speak to.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

A new luxury hotel - I agree 350 rooms isn't a "boutique" - probably does have a good market already set as a higher end offering.

I think what would be interesting is that another Waldorf or seasons type hotel will cause more strain on an existing issue: why are the disney deluxes so expensive?

"What's so "grand" about my $600 room where anyone off the street can book the restaurants solid and kids run through the bar in their bathing suit?"

 

[sachilles]

I'd be content with Marriott, as I use them quite a bit through work and have plenty of points to use. That being said, I enjoy the disney resorts for their integration into the parks. If the corner skyliner station is a "loader" this could be a pretty good spot for a non disney owned property.
....and bonus points of saying it's on an 18 hole golf course.

 

[Mac30188]

Don't know the occupancy of the boardwalk area hotels...but filling deluxes has been a "quiet" problem for a while - particulate animal kingdom, wilderness lodge, and the monorail resorts...

Look at it this way: if those rooms in the poly and wilderness lodge were filling at $500 a night...why convert? It's not like housekeeping is that expensive...

To decrease risk profile. Why hold the risk of empty hotel rooms during an economic downturn if you can get someone to take that risk for you with an extremely Disney friendly contract? The margins maybe lower, but you are offloading a tremendous amount of economic risk. In addition, while it is almost impossible for someone to compete with Disney's theme parks, it is much easier to compete in the market of Orlando hotel rooms.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

To decrease risk profile. Why hold the risk of empty hotel rooms during an economic downturn if you can get someone to take that risk for you with an extremely Disney friendly contract? The margins maybe lower, but you are offloading a tremendous amount of economic risk. In addition, while it is almost impossible for someone to compete with Disney's theme parks, it is much easier to compete in the market of Orlando hotel rooms.

You're looking at it from the textbook angle...not the realities of wdw.

Wilderness lodge had fallen to 50% occupancy prior to conversion ...the traditional wdw hotel occupancy was 85-95% year round.

Timeshares are a win on all levels for them...guaranteed bookings and revenue streams...

My point is that they would have added in timeshares without hesitation if the rack rooms were filled as they had been traditionally...which means they weren't filled.

There's economic reality...and Disney economic reality...it's a discipline unto its own.

 

[Q-man]

A new luxury hotel - I agree 350 rooms isn't a "boutique" - probably does have a good market already set as a higher end offering.

I think what would be interesting is that another Waldorf or seasons type hotel will cause more strain on an existing issue: why are the disney deluxes so expensive?

"What's so "grand" about my $600 room where anyone off the street can book the restaurants solid and kids run through the bar in their bathing suit?"

To justify $200/nt for the Motel 6 experience at the values.

 

[Q-man]

You're looking at it from the textbook angle...not the realities of wdw.

Wilderness lodge had fallen to 50% occupancy prior to conversion ...the traditional wdw hotel occupancy was 85-95% year round.

Timeshares are a win on all levels for them...guaranteed bookings and revenue streams...

My point is that they would have added in timeshares without hesitation if the rack rooms were filled as they had been traditionally...which means they weren't filled.

There's economic reality...and Disney economic reality...it's a discipline unto its own.

You know my drum beat on this, Disney sold DVC to the regulars that previously filled the deluxe rooms. Now they have to convert deluxe rooms to DVC to reduce deluxe inventory. Which in turn further shrinks the deluxe customer pool.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

To justify $200/nt for the Motel 6 experience at the values.

Yes...but it's deeper than that...

Most bucket brigaders argue "That fabulous location!!!!"

Ok...partly...and that works on the matching tshirt crowd...but to the more "whale" types that know good hotels...it doesn't wash. And disney tries to sell that they can cater to those people (until they sold land to gates to build the four seasons...at least)...
Disney "deluxes" are pretty awful on services/amenities in comparison...especially staffing skill and capabilities. I had college programmers working the desk under me at the grand...and one was in concierge. Couldn't really sell $369 a night for that back then (about $600 now)...

It doesn't fly...and as Eisner/iger kept Ramping hotel rates (before the more public food and ticket hikes)...the cracks began to really let loose in the damn.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You know my drum beat on this, Disney sold DVC to the regulars that previously filled the deluxe rooms. Now they have to convert deluxe rooms to DVC to reduce deluxe inventory which further shrinks the deluxe customer pool.

Right...but your point and my scenario end up in the same place: exactly the reality in TDO on the ground.

 

[Q-man]

Yes...but it's deeper than that...

Most bucket brigaders argue "That fabulous location!!!!"

Ok...partly...and that works on the matching tshirt crowd...but to the more "whale" types that know good hotels...it doesn't wash. And disney tries to sell that they can cater to those people (until they sold land to gates to build the four seasons...at least)...
Disney "deluxes" are pretty awful on services/amenities in comparison...especially staffing skill and capabilities. I had college programmers working the desk under me at the grand...and one was in concierge. Couldn't really sell $369 a night for that back then (about $600 now)...

It doesn't fly...and as Eisner/iger kept Ramping hotel rates (before the more public food and ticket hikes)...the cracks began to really let loose in the damn.

I agree with you that wealthy people are generally savvy to what they are getting for the buck. At those prices they have no issue staying at a real high service hotel, earning their points, and taking uber back and forth. Which leaves those that just have to stay on property and once in a lifetime splurges as the customer base.