Miami area condo collapse

[NYCgrrl]

Co-op?

Condo.

 

[kdonnel]

I was part of an HOA where the building and exterior was covered by the HOA's policy paid with our HOA dues. There's probably something in the HOA covenant that specifies what happens in case of a total loss.

What I was wondering is say someone has a mortgage of $2000 a month and the HOA fees are $600 a month. The building is uninhabitable but the mortgage company is still going to want their $2000 a month until the mortgage is satisfied. The HOA is going to want their $600 a month until the HOA is dissolved.

The owners, both living and deceased, are still on the hook for that $2600 a month until this all gets settled in the courts.

I don't have personal experience but I have witnessed friends battle for a year or more to get their single family homes rebuilt after a disaster when the home insurance company fights and questions the reasons behind the disaster.

I don't expect the individual homeowners insurance companies to pay out in a quick fashion in this case.

I don't expect the HOA to stop demanding their money every month as the HOA will have significant expenses associated with the lawsuit(s) that will be filed. I imagine the HOA will end up having to sue their own insurance company as that insurance company will fight using the improper construction angle to try and get the construction firms or architect firms insurance companies to pay for part of the loss. Someone has to pay for the final demolition and cleanup and that is why I think the poor owners and owners estates will have to keep paying their HOA fees until the HOA is dissolved and the lot is clean. Years more payments.

 

[NYCgrrl]

The general consensus of many in the field is more information is needed to apportion responsibility.

The condo assoc. took out a 10+M line of credit to start and complete the work which should have taken at least two years to complete. Makes sense to me as my building is going through much the same at a similar proportional cost. At least one resident owner sued the association over water entering the unit in..2015 I believe. And yes, you can sue “yourself”, hmm.
There are questions regarding the structural design of the parking lot’s sub surface and slope. Questions on the accuracy of the engineers’ report. Concerns on the certification program- self certifying or overseen by the county/municipality? The condo’s anticipated assessment of 80K to 200K to pay back the loan? The pandemics moratorium on construction work.

It goes on and on with several self serving and vague statements being given out by many involved parties. And the body search continues.

 

[NYCgrrl]

You can only tell if the condo is still in existence and capable of collecting monthly fees by reading the corporate documents. No sense in guessing without reading it.

 

[JimMIA]

The death toll is now 9, with four more bodies found overnight. News reports also mention "human remains" being found, but it's not clear from any of the reports what that means.

The subterranean fire under the rubble has now been contained, which is making the search and rescue effort more efficient.

Still 156 people described as unaccounted for.

 

[JimMIA]

No sense in guessing without reading it.

LMAO.

This is the DIS! We are all about speculation.

How many people have posted the same article about defects found in a 2018 engineers report, as if it's something recent?

And how many of them just posted without realizing that it had already been posted on this same thread multiple times -- AND without researching any further to discover that nobody with any expertise thinks those defects could have caused the collapse?

 

[Marrila]

The death toll is now 9, with four more bodies found overnight. News reports also mention "human remains" being found, but it's not clear from any of the reports what that means.

The subterranean fire under the rubble has now been contained, which is making the search and rescue effort more efficient.

Still 156 people described as unaccounted for.

I'm sure they will use DNA to identify remains.
How terribly sad and painful this is for families as well as those searching.

 

[neverlandsky]

The collapse is perhaps more of a series of mashed unfortunate circumstances of time, weather/hurricanes, outdated building codes, maintenance issues, etc. Random tragedies do happen which makes it far worse than ever imagined. Nothing is built to last forever, hence why Vegas implodes old casino buildings and builds new ones in the forever changing skyline. Last time I heard "human remains" was 9/11. So sad. Nothing but T&Ps for all. Hope the first responders have much needed protection.

 

[JimMIA]

I'm sure they will use DNA to identify remains.
How terribly sad and painful this is for families as well as those searching.

Yes, of course. Our crime lab has been collecting DNA samples from close relatives since the first day.

The wait is incomprehensibly painful for loved ones. Authorities are taking the relatives from the reconciliation center to the actual site today, so they can see the effort. I'm sure that trip will include updates from the top officials at the scene, probably including members of the actual teams.

Our police director was at the reconciliation center yesterday (I think the police department is running that center). I know him personally and he's a very compassionate guy who really feels the pain of events like this. In other settings, when blowhards jabber about "Me, me, me," Freddy is always the one who knows who the family members are, acknowledges them, and steers the conversation to their loss and their pain.

 

[bcla]

Yes, of course. Our crime lab has been collecting DNA samples from close relatives since the first day.

The wait is incomprehensibly painful for loved ones. Authorities are taking the relatives from the reconciliation center to the actual site today, so they can see the effort. I'm sure that trip will include updates from the top officials at the scene, probably including members of the actual teams.

Our police director was at the reconciliation center yesterday (I think the police department is running that center). I know him personally and he's a very compassionate guy who really feels the pain of events like this. In other settings, when blowhards jabber about "Me, me, me," Freddy is always the one who knows who the family members are, acknowledges them, and steers the conversation to their loss and their pain.

How does that work? Is the Miami-Dade PD just taking over everything in this case? I know around here there's a lot of small municipalities that still want to maintain their small police departments, even though there are some calls to consolidate and/or contract out to save money and perhaps get access to more sworn officers in case there's something big and not just calling for mutual aid. I see that Surfside has its own (non-contract) police department. When I visited the Miami area, I saw plenty of Miami-Dade Police vehicles all over where it seemed in some places that they were the only police there.

 

[kdonnel]

You can only tell if the condo is still in existence and capable of collecting monthly fees by reading the corporate documents. No sense in guessing without reading it.

I really doubt the HOA/condo associations ceases to exit when the building is damaged, even when damaged beyond repair. The condo association generally owns the common areas that must now be fully demolished and cleaned up at considerable expense. Hopefully federal disaster aid is given, otherwise the owners may be hit with a large special assessment.

 

[bcla]

The collapse is perhaps more of a series of mashed unfortunate circumstances of time, weather/hurricanes, outdated building codes, maintenance issues, etc. Random tragedies do happen which makes it far worse than ever imagined. Nothing is built to last forever, hence why Vegas implodes old casino buildings and builds new ones in the forever changing skyline. Last time I heard "human remains" was 9/11. So sad. Nothing but T&Ps for all. Hope the first responders have much needed protection.

In Vegas they're often imploded even when buildings are pretty new. The main issue there is just the desirability of newer buildings in prime locations.

However, we hear of building collapses all over parts of Asia. Even newer buildings in China or the Philippines have collapsed, although often the cause was determined to be cheating on materials to save money, coupled with unpermitted additional floors.

About three decades ago I was visiting Vancouver, BC when there were reports of a new rooftop parking structure over a supermarket that collapsed. I looked into it, and fortunately nobody died.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

What I was wondering is say someone has a mortgage of $2000 a month and the HOA fees are $600 a month. The building is uninhabitable but the mortgage company is still going to want their $2000 a month until the mortgage is satisfied. The HOA is going to want their $600 a month until the HOA is dissolved.

The owners, both living and deceased, are still on the hook for that $2600 a month until this all gets settled in the courts.

I don't have personal experience but I have witnessed friends battle for a year or more to get their single family homes rebuilt after a disaster when the home insurance company fights and questions the reasons behind the disaster.

I don't expect the individual homeowners insurance companies to pay out in a quick fashion in this case.

I don't expect the HOA to stop demanding their money every month as the HOA will have significant expenses associated with the lawsuit(s) that will be filed. I imagine the HOA will end up having to sue their own insurance company as that insurance company will fight using the improper construction angle to try and get the construction firms or architect firms insurance companies to pay for part of the loss. Someone has to pay for the final demolition and cleanup and that is why I think the poor owners and owners estates will have to keep paying their HOA fees until the HOA is dissolved and the lot is clean. Years more payments.

I was thinking about this, too. It does seem like, perhaps a wealthier crowd than most, but I would think it would be extraordinarily difficult to lose virtually everything (I can’t imagine even those on the side that didn’t implode will be allowed back in their condos to retrieve their belongings) and have to start all over again with housing, furniture, clothing, etc., while still paying mortgages and HOA fees on a building that essentially no longer exists, through no fault of their own (residents). I would think that most will just stop paying, and deal with the consequences later. But I did read in some of the comments of articles, opinions that insurance will eventually cover their losses. Sounds massively complex to me, but I think the bottom line is that most will probably not continue to pay mortgages and HOA fees on this building right now. Just my guess.

 

[JimMIA]

How does that work? Is the Miami-Dade PD just taking over everything in this case? I know around here there's a lot of small municipalities that still want to maintain their small police departments, even though there are some calls to consolidate and/or contract out to save money and perhaps get access to more sworn officers in case there's something big and not just calling for mutual aid. I see that Surfside has its own (non-contract) police department. When I visited the Miami area, I saw plenty of Miami-Dade Police vehicles all over where it seemed in some places that they were the only police there.

Miami-Dade FIRE RESCUE is in charge of the entire situation at this point. It is still a search and rescue mission, and until that changes MDFR will be in command. And I suspect MDFR will be in charge until all of the rubble is cleared, which will take weeks. MDFR also provides fire/rescue services for most smaller municipalities, and I believe they are the fire department for the town of Surfside.

[ETA: Miami-Dade POLICE will be in charge of all death investigations. That effort has already started, but MDFR will remain in overall command for a long time. There are well-established Incident Command System protocols for all of that stuff. The last big incident like this we had was the Valuejet crash in 1996, and MDFR maintained command of that scene for many weeks.]

Miami-Dade POLICE provide police services for all of the unincorporated areas (most of our county) and they also provide either full services or partial services for many municipalities. For example, many small police departments do not have the expertise to perform many types of investigations, so MDPD provides those. They also provide many other functions -- extensive training, SWAT and many other tactical functions, bomb disposal, marine patrol, aviation, etc, etc. MDPD has slightly more than 5,000 employees, of whom something like 3,200 are sworn law enforcement officers.

MDPD also provides crime laboratory services for every department in the county, and also all criminal records-keeping for the departments and courts.

We have one of the best crime labs in the country, and were one of only four crime laboratories worldwide to be involved in the introduction of DNA technology to the forensic area in the late 1980's, (The other agencies were New Scotland Yard, the FBI lab in Quantico, VA, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police lab.) They have also played a leading role in the development of many other forensic services over the years.

 

[bcla]

Miami-Dade FIRE RESCUE is in charge of the entire situation at this point. It is still a search and rescue mission, and until that changes MDFR will be in command. And I suspect MDFR will be in charge until all of the rubble is cleared, which will take weeks. MDFR also provides fire/rescue services for most smaller municipalities, and I believe they are the fire department for the town of Surfside.

[ETA: Miami-Dade POLICE will be in charge of all death investigations. That effort has already started, but MDFR will remain in overall command for a long time. There are well-established Incident Command System protocols for all of that stuff. The last big incident like this we had was the Valuejet crash in 1996, and MDFR maintained command of that scene for many weeks.]

Miami-Dade POLICE provide police services for all of the unincorporated areas (most of our county) and they also provide either full services or partial services for many municipalities. For example, many small police departments do not have the expertise to perform many types of investigations, so MDPD provides those. They also provide many other functions -- extensive training, SWAT and many other tactical functions, bomb disposal, marine patrol, aviation, etc, etc. MDPD has slightly more than 5,000 employees, of whom something like 3,200 are sworn law enforcement officers.

MDPD also provides crime laboratory services for every department in the county, and also all criminal records-keeping for the departments and courts.

We have one of the best crime labs in the country, and were one of only four crime laboratories worldwide to be involved in the introduction of DNA technology to the forensic area in the late 1980's, (The other agencies were New Scotland Yard, the FBI lab in Quantico, VA, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police lab.) They have also played a leading role in the development of many other forensic services over the years.

Sure. I understood that this was a search and rescue operation first and foremost, but I noticed that a lot of the command seemed to be from the county mayor and Miami-Dade PD.

 

[JimMIA]

Sure. I understood that this was a search and rescue operation first and foremost, but I noticed that a lot of the command seemed to be from the county mayor and Miami-Dade PD.

You have two things at work there.

First and foremost, COMMAND of the overall operation is by the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Department. Period.

But then, there is also the public communications aspect of the situation. When they hold press conferences, our mayor is usually the first official to speak, and being the nice person she is, she is always going to include everyone with any level of authority. She doesn't want anyone to feel left out or be grumpy. We had a county commissioner blather on for about 20 minutes about absolutely nothing the other day -- but thankfully, he's not running the show.

The news media likes and respects Freddy Ramirez (the police director), and he's usually talking about more intangible things like family fears and pain, so he gets more media play than the boring, but more important, nuts-and-bolts stuff the fire chiefs are discussing. Wading through knee-deep water in the boiling heat and dense smoke to dig for survivors is not sexy.

But the fire department is most certainly in COMMAND of the entire operation.

The police are only involved in things like traffic control, scene security, running the reunification center, collecting evidence, etc. The police (my alma mater) are definitely in a support role at this point.

 

[JimMIA]

One thing I missed in earlier news reports is that there HAS been one person rescued alive. A man was rescued from the wreckage Thursday morning, but unfortunately he died on the way to the hospital.

There are also elite rescue teams from Mexico and Israel assisting with the effort.

 

[cellomom]

My son has been deployed, USAR team from North Florida, on the way to provide support and assistance.
keeping all in our thoughts and prayers.

 

[JimMIA]

My son has been deployed, USAR team from North Florida, on the way to provide support and assistance.
keeping all in our thoughts and prayers.

Please thank him for his courage, skill, and assistance on behalf of all of us here in South Florida!

 

[NYCgrrl]

I really doubt the HOA/condo associations ceases to exit when the building is damaged, even when damaged beyond repair. The condo association generally owns the common areas that must now be fully demolished and cleaned up at considerable expense. Hopefully federal disaster aid is given, otherwise the owners may be hit with a large special assessment.

I doubt the condo assoc. ceased to exist as well (half the building is still standing) but wild horses wouldn’t let me say definitively without reading the docs. Guessing makes me uncomfortable. When debris damaged some buildings during 9/11, it took years for the corresponding lawyers and insurance companies to come to a meeting of the minds on issues like this.