If global warming could be stopped and earth saved by ending the use of all forms of electricity, would you do it?

[Stratman50th]

So I've already answered the original question and my opinion is still the same.
As this seems to have morphed into a EV vs ICE thread I offer this video. I have no interest in an EV as it does not do what I need it to do and the price point for me isn't there. That being said, this does offer some insight and is presented very well offering both sides of the issue.

Apparently it isn't available so carry on....

 

[longboard55]

Condolences on your loss but it's very unlikely she would have been better off in an older car. As I mentioned, passenger compartment intrusion is a major area of focus and was exponentially worse in the past. That is before we get into features like collapsible steering columns or other things we assume as common sense today.

This was a 50 year delta test the IIHS did a while back. The difference in passenger protection is readily apparent:

Someone should be arrested for wrecking the Bel Air, what a great looking car. Of course it probably got about 10 mpg. Better mileage is another thing California has required for decades which made certain people very unhappy

 

[lowlight]

There are others. The government often has to drag their population into the future.

I can’t believe I have to say this, but that isn’t the job of government.

As far as EV’s and batteries and maintenance, I buy reliable cars (Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura only) a year or two old, do all maintenance and oil changes myself, and drive them for 200k miles. My cost to own is very, very low. I also tow things, which EV’s simply cannot do.

The “just buy an EV” crowd is in such a high income bubble they can’t see the outside world.

 

[dvcgirl67]

I know a big portion of our economy works in the service industry making less than 50k a year. The average house hold income is 67k and only about 35% of households make over 100k. That’s a lot of people that can’t afford an electric car. The people in the service industry who cant work from home are the people making the least amount of money.
We have three cars ranging from 4, 10 and 16 years old. I cannot afford a new car nor do I need one and neither of us have the luxury of working from home.

Well, I'm just going to say....if you're throwing out 100K as wealthy....the grand majority of posters on these boards are wealthy.

And okay, 67K is the median income and 35% make over 100K...and so that means they can't afford an EV? I guess they can't afford a new ICE car either....or a newer used car for that matter.....because you can't find a new one of those on the cheap these days either. If your argument is that *all* cars have gotten more expensive, than yes...you are correct. Auto loans payments have exploded in the last two years. No argument there. But this idea that somehow the wealthy is forcing anyone to buy an EV is new to me. A lot of assumptions and biases here.

 

[DCLMP]

But ozone is only one part of a bigger picture. Particulate emissions (soot/ash), carbon emissions, the destruction of the carbon sink that forests currently provide, etc. all have to factor in as well. And all of that (plus the factor someone mentioned earlier about it being easier to scrub emissions at a central power generation facility than at millions of point-of-use chimneys/tailpipes, create a situation where our current methods are better than anything that came before. The solution is to move forward, not look back.


I think you might be right about the number one economy thing - it stands to reason that some of the nations that have 3+ times our population will surpass us if they can maintain even modest levels of economic growth and shared prosperity (that second being the real challenge for most). But I can't foresee any way the US breaks up. I don't think anyone here, no matter how divided they think we are, has an appetite for the kind of chaos that would cause. I especially don't think those in whose hands power is concentrated would ever permit such a thing. It would be too bad for business.



Or not even move, just fly out to Nevada to buy that gas car that can't be sold in CA and then drive it on home. That's the problem with state-by-state restrictions on products. You ever pass through a dry county and see all the liquor stores stacked up just outside the county line? That's what would happen with ICE vehicle dealerships.



Of *new* gas powered cars. Which is another point against the policy. It isn't the new ICE cars that add the most to the emissions. It is my son's '94 Silverado and his grandmother's '88 Mercury. And even with a ban on new gas powered cars, people in our income bracket will be many years away from being able to afford even an older used EV (assuming the battery life issues have in fact been resolved well enough that there will someday be 20yo EVs on the road).

We’ve seen plenty of chaos in the last 4 years. I wouldn’t say we don’t have an appetite for it. It really depends on the economy, and how bad things get. We’re already in a recession and even the banks are telling us something much worse is coming. I come in contact with dozens of different people each week and work with people with all different incomes. I over heard someone in upper management talking about their new Tesla and spending 8k to get it wrapped. Thats great for them, but most people I work with are more concerned about their grocery bills, electric bills, gas bills, and inflation, buying a new car isn’t on most peoples radar right now.

 

[mom2rtk]

Well, I'm just going to say....if you're throwing out 100K as wealthy....the grand majority of posters on these boards are wealthy.

And okay, 67K is the median income and 35% make over 100K...and so that means they can't afford an EV? I guess they can't afford a new ICE car either....or a newer used car for that matter.....because you can't find a new one of those on the cheap these days either. If your argument is that *all* cars have gotten more expensive, than yes...you are correct. Auto loans payments have exploded in the last two years. No argument there. But this idea that somehow the wealthy is forcing anyone to buy an EV is new to me. A lot of assumptions and biases here.

Saying "it's all expensive" doesn't help either. If someone can't afford a newer used car, they buy an older used car.

What do you think they do?

 

[DCLMP]

Well, I'm just going to say....if you're throwing out 100K as wealthy....the grand majority of posters on these boards are wealthy.

And okay, 67K is the median income and 35% make over 100K...and so that means they can't afford an EV? I guess they can't afford a new ICE car either....or a newer used car for that matter.....because you can't find a new one of those on the cheap these days either. If your argument is that *all* cars have gotten more expensive, than yes...you are correct. Auto loans payments have exploded in the last two years. No argument there. But this idea that somehow the wealthy is forcing anyone to buy an EV is new to me. A lot of assumptions and biases here.

Yes most people in the world don’t take 15k Disney vacations…shocking I know.
I don’t think there are too many people suffering on this forum. Just a lot out of people out of touch with reality that complain about the lack of service workers at WDW, and at the same time think they should buy electric cars on their 15 dollar an hour salaries.

Sure I could take on 50k in debt right now and buy an EV. Why would I I have 3 cars that are paid and for, two kids in college. I’d have to give up traveling to make the car payment or I guess I could sell some assets or pull money from retirement account. Nope not going to to do any of those things. What I am going to do is continue to plan for the coming depression.

Its not that the wealthy are forcing people to buy new cars, but many are supporting policies that are causing inflation and are going to lead to an energy and food crisis.

 

[Dakota731]

The power black outs are a result of the power companies shutting down when there are high winds. We have had no power outages due to demand, that is a false rumor being used often. California produces close to zero electricity from coal. During afternoon hours about 70% is from renewable sources mostly wind and solar.

According to the US energy department, California imports half its electricity from other states and gets 1/4 from natural gas so it’s not exactly self sufficient from wind and solar that’s for sure!

 

[DCLMP]

According to the US energy department, California imports half its electricity from other states and gets 1/4 from natural gas so it’s not exactly self sufficient from wind and solar that’s for sure!

Yes we sell California energy from our nuclear plant. They decommissioned theirs.

 

[lowlight]

Well, I'm just going to say....if you're throwing out 100K as wealthy....the grand majority of posters on these boards are wealthy.

And okay, 67K is the median income and 35% make over 100K...and so that means they can't afford an EV? I guess they can't afford a new ICE car either....or a newer used car for that matter.....because you can't find a new one of those on the cheap these days either. If your argument is that *all* cars have gotten more expensive, than yes...you are correct. Auto loans payments have exploded in the last two years. No argument there. But this idea that somehow the wealthy is forcing anyone to buy an EV is new to me. A lot of assumptions and biases here.

Right, now you understand. Not only can most people not afford a new EV, they can’t afford a new gas car, or heck, a good used gas car. Now you are understanding the point some are making- you have no idea how much better you have it than the average US household. It’s apparent in your confusion over the discussion. People are deciding to not pay electricity bills, buying an EV is not even in the same galaxy of consideration.

 

[Dakota731]

Yes we sell California energy from our nuclear plant. They decommissioned theirs.

Yep makes them look clean and green and other states look dirty.
I’m all for being good stewards of our planet. We love the outdoors and the amazing national parks in this country. However just jumping in and changing everything without looking into if anything actually works is ridiculous. As I said before I’m old enough to remember all the 1970s global warming apocalyptic headlines that never came to be. We still have polar bears, DC has actually been cooler the past ten years, and the planet is still here.
When I see “scientists” on tv like last week blaming climate change for childhood obesity, we’ve crossed into the absurd. And that forest fires (most caused by human carelessness) and hurricanes are caused by climate change as well. So I guess there were no tornadoes or floods either before the invention of the car? The National Oceanic Administration tells us there are no more hurricanes today than there were 100 years ago. We just have more people living in their path.

 

[DCLMP]

Yep makes them look clean and green and other states look dirty.
I’m all for being good stewards of our planet. We love the outdoors and the amazing national parks in this country. However just jumping in and changing everything without looking into if anything actually works is ridiculous. As I said before I’m old enough to remember all the 1970s global warming apocalyptic headlines that never came to be. We still have polar bears, DC has actually been cooler the past ten years, and the planet is still here.
When I see “scientists” on tv like last week blaming climate change for childhood obesity, we’ve crossed into the absurd. And that forest fires (most caused by human carelessness) and hurricanes are caused by climate change as well. So I guess there were no tornadoes or floods either before the invention of the car? The National Oceanic Administration tells us there are no more hurricanes today than there were 100 years ago. We just have more people living in their path.

The funny thing is nuclear power is very clean. 25% of what Palo Verde produces goes to southern California.

 

[Dakota731]

Right, now you understand. Not only can most people not afford a new EV, they can’t afford a new gas car, or heck, a good used gas car. Now you are understanding the point some are making- you have no idea how much better you have it than the average US household. It’s apparent in your confusion over the discussion. People are deciding to not pay electricity bills, buying an EV is not even in the same galaxy of consideration.

And of course if the demand for electricity goes up dramatically, what will the prices do? If you say rise as well, then you are correct. So the poor people who can’t pay their utility bill now will really be out of luck when rates go sky high, and they don’t even have an electric car yet still will have to suffer with the increased rates.
Kind of the same as I paid my way through college and my kids’ ways through college, and now I’ll have to pay for a stranger’s student loan as well. I’m sensing a pattern here

 

[Colleen27]

We’ve seen plenty of chaos in the last 4 years. I wouldn’t say we don’t have an appetite for it. It really depends on the economy, and how bad things get. We’re already in a recession and even the banks are telling us something much worse is coming. I come in contact with dozens of different people each week and work with people with all different incomes. I over heard someone in upper management talking about their new Tesla and spending 8k to get it wrapped. Thats great for them, but most people I work with are more concerned about their grocery bills, electric bills, gas bills, and inflation, buying a new car isn’t on most peoples radar right now.

You and I are using chaos in a very different sense. There have been some troubling events in recent years, yes, but not chaos. The rule of law and the democratic process has held, and as much as everyone on both sides wants to believe that this moment is somehow different than every other period of turmoil in our past, there's precious little evidence to suggest that's actually true. Yes, we're likely due for an economic downturn. It will be the third of my adult life so maybe I've just gotten cynical, but that doomsday "end of the country/world/international order as we know it" nonsense hasn't panned out yet and I don't think it will this time either. Economies, at least those structured the way the world economy is right now, go up and they go down. Recessions and inflation suck and they hit the most vulnerable the hardest. But in the end, the downturn becomes an upswing and we start the cycle all over.

Saying "it's all expensive" doesn't help either. If someone can't afford a newer used car, they buy an older used car.

What do you think they do?

But that is a cycle that leans heavily on the durability of ICE vehicles. That's where I think the EV push falls short - even their advocates acknowledge that they're likely to need a five-figure repair around 100K miles (and presumably around 200K as well). That means as EVs come to make up a larger share of the new car market, there will be a dwindling number of affordable older used cars available. I bought my last vehicle as a 6 year old, 80K miles used car. Who would do that if the car was an EV nearing the end of its battery's expected life? I've also had it for 140K miles so far. If it were an EV, I'd likely have had to replace the battery twice now, once not long after buying it and again fairly recently, each time at a cost about equal to what I paid for the van in the first place. I could add up every repair I've put into it so far, even including routine things like brakes and wheel bearings, and not get to the cost of a single battery replacement in an EV.

Pushing for an all-electric passenger car future, as California and some countries are doing with looming bans on the sale of gas vehicles, is also pushing for a future where buying used is much harder and where the aging stock of ICE vehicles available will be repaired and kept on the road much longer than if they could readily be replaced with newer, cleaner, more efficient ICE cars. Time will tell if it ends up a net gain for the environment, but the fact that it will be harder on the poor and working classes is hardly even a matter for debate.

 

[Southernmiss]

California's goal is a lofty one. But it is 12 years away.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/27/1119...rs-electric-cars-zero-emission-climate-change

Many fields are looking strongly to the future to mitigate climate change.

Our daughter is doing biological lab research on how to modify plants to make them resistant to climate change.

Many other disciplines are looking now to solve future problems.

The young people of today will be the professionals in 12 years eager to purchase EVs.

Our kid least interested in politics has been talking about buying a Tesla as soon as he can.

Dh and I will replace my 2008 Sienna just as soon as the market calms down and are looking to at least a hybrid.

Heck, we replaced our gas powered push mower this summer with a battery operated one and have loved it.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Saying "it's all expensive" doesn't help either. If someone can't afford a newer used car, they buy an older used car.

What do you think they do?

I'm aware of how it works....have owned many used cars in my day....grew up in a household with no extra money...etc. I was referring to the other poster's comments....that people making under 100K can't afford an EV. That argument makes no sense...as all EVs aren't expensive, and to your point....there's a used EV market as well.

 

[DCLMP]

You and I are using chaos in a very different sense. There have been some troubling events in recent years, yes, but not chaos. The rule of law and the democratic process has held, and as much as everyone on both sides wants to believe that this moment is somehow different than every other period of turmoil in our past, there's precious little evidence to suggest that's actually true. Yes, we're likely due for an economic downturn. It will be the third of my adult life so maybe I've just gotten cynical, but that doomsday "end of the country/world/international order as we know it" nonsense hasn't panned out yet and I don't think it will this time either. Economies, at least those structured the way the world economy is right now, go up and they go down. Recessions and inflation suck and they hit the most vulnerable the hardest. But in the end, the downturn becomes an upswing and we start the cycle all over.



But that is a cycle that leans heavily on the durability of ICE vehicles. That's where I think the EV push falls short - even their advocates acknowledge that they're likely to need a five-figure repair around 100K miles (and presumably around 200K as well). That means as EVs come to make up a larger share of the new car market, there will be a dwindling number of affordable older used cars available. I bought my last vehicle as a 6 year old, 80K miles used car. Who would do that if the car was an EV nearing the end of its battery's expected life? I've also had it for 140K miles so far. If it were an EV, I'd likely have had to replace the battery twice now, once not long after buying it and again fairly recently, each time at a cost about equal to what I paid for the van in the first place. I could add up every repair I've put into it so far, even including routine things like brakes and wheel bearings, and not get to the cost of a single battery replacement in an EV.

Pushing for an all-electric passenger car future, as California and some countries are doing with looming bans on the sale of gas vehicles, is also pushing for a future where buying used is much harder and where the aging stock of ICE vehicles available will be repaired and kept on the road much longer than if they could readily be replaced with newer, cleaner, more efficient ICE cars. Time will tell if it ends up a net gain for the environment, but the fact that it will be harder on the poor and working classes is hardly even a matter for debate.

When people say depression, change in world order, economic collapse it doesn’t mean the end of the world. The deniers are the one that always get so hyperbolic and panicked assuming the person is talking about the end of the world. History go es in cycles I believe we are coming to end of that cycle because this one has failed. Hopefully we don’t make the same mistake again when we recover. You only have to look at history to understand the future. Yet some people think the present is always going to be the future.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Yes most people in the world don’t take 15k Disney vacations…shocking I know.
I don’t think there are too many people suffering on this forum. Just a lot out of people out of touch with reality that complain about the lack of service workers at WDW, and at the same time think they should buy electric cars on their 15 dollar an hour salaries.

Sure I could take on 50k in debt right now and buy an EV. Why would I I have 3 cars that are paid and for, two kids in college. I’d have to give up traveling to make the car payment or I guess I could sell some assets or pull money from retirement account. Nope not going to to do any of those things. What I am going to do is continue to plan for the coming depression.

Its not that the wealthy are forcing people to buy new cars, but many are supporting policies that are causing inflation and are going to lead to an energy and food crisis.

Dark outlook, but ok. Nobody, including government policies is currently forcing anyone to buy an EV. And as someone else posted, that 2035 date that California has thrown out there is likely to slip. But good for California for throwing down the gauntlet....someone has to lead, and they often do in these matters. And FWIW, I wouldn't get an EV in your situation....unless you needed to get a new, or a used car, and then....I'd give it a shot. You might actually like it.

 

[DCLMP]

I'm aware of how it works....have owned many used cars in my day....grew up in a household with no extra money...etc. I was referring to the other poster's comments....that people making under 100K can't afford an EV. That argument makes no sense...as all EVs aren't expensive, and to your point....there's a used EV market as well.

All cars are expensive right now. Most people cannot afford any car right now and if they can they have more pressing needs like keeping up with the rising cost of living. New cars aren’t a priority right now….

 

[longboard55]

Remember those flat screen tvs that were $2000 12 years ago. Now they are $300

And as I type California electric supply is at 56% renewables 19% nat gas 7% nuclear and 16% imports