DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[drusba]

This is really well put. Do you happen to know if the same language is in other resort POS documents? We do not own at BWV. I really cannot believe dvc told Minniemoo15 that they could just devalue points every year. Obviously, they have serious problems with management.

The applicable provision, section 3.3, in all the Membership Agreements are substantially similar. The language providing that any increase in points in a calendar year for any Use Day in a Vacation home must be offset by a corresponding decrease on other Use Days is exactly the same in all Membership Agreements, even in the Riviera membership agreement.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

The applicable provisions in all the POS's are substantially similar. The language providing that any increase in points in a calendar year for any Use Day in a Vacation home must be offset by a corresponding decrease in other Use Days is exactly the same in all Membership Agreements, even in the Riviera membership agreement.

Thank you

 

[HappyDisneyWife]

That is the section that gives the DVCM the power to create point charts by establishing the Home Resort Vacation Points needed for each "Use Day" in "each Vacation Home." It states that the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points "will remain fixed and will always be symbolic of the Club Member's Ownership interest. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Homes during all Use Days in the condominium must always equal, and be symbolic of Ownership Interests owned by Club members in the Condominium."

So, if they try to raise the total number of points required to book, then they better be prepared to raise all of our contracts’ total point worth in tandem.

I'm not a timeshare lawyer, but there's just no way what Disney is saying can be true. My 100 points need to represent 0.2867% of my unit.

What is the email address we should all be using to send inquiries to Disney about the issues with the 2022 chart?

I totally agree that they believe no one will notice. Our little percentages need to remain truthfully represented. We all need to start emailing.

If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

Again.... we all need to start emailing.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

Apparently, it’s up to us. Sad, but seemingly true.

Thank you to all who have worked so hard to keep the management in check! You are protecting us all!!

 

[Sandisw]

The applicable provision, section 3.3, in all the Membership Agreements are substantially similar. The language providing that any increase in points in a calendar year for any Use Day in a Vacation home must be offset by a corresponding decrease on other Use Days is exactly the same in all Membership Agreements, even in the Riviera membership agreement.

To clarify, points are counted as 2 bedrooms only..unless they are a dedicated studio or 1 bedroom correct?

So, at BLt, where there are no dedicated rooms, doesn’t apply to the 2 bedroom points going up and down and not the separate booking of each part?

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I am going to email after I figure out how to analyze other resort point charts to make a larger case. We are heading to Disney this weekend so it will probably be Tuesday next week before I send mine. In the meantime if anyone else has details (for dummies lol) on how to calculate the overall points for each resort, post it! I agree, thanks to all of you who have flagged us and put time into holding dvc accountable.

 

[drusba]

To clarify, points are counted as 2 bedrooms only..unless they are a dedicated studio or 1 bedroom correct?

So, at BLt, where there are no dedicated rooms, doesn’t apply to the 2 bedroom points going up and down and not the separate booking of each part?

Point totals applicable to the ownership of entire resort for a year count lock-off 2BRs as 2BRs. The point charts provide for a higher total applicable to total needed to reserve studios and 1BRs separately, but even if there are no dedicated studios and 1BRs, that does not mean those rooms can be raised in a calendar year with no corresponding decrease on different use days.

Once the total points applicable to a studio or 1BR are determined for a calendar year, the total needs to remain the same per use year under section 3.3, subject to modifications due to shifts or increases you may get by changes in the calendar year due to holiday dates or a year or season having more weekend days than a prior year (that kind of natural movement can possibly account for a change of a few thousand points in a year in a resort like BLT from a prior year but likely not a 20,000 point change. The requirement that any increase in a vacation home for any use day during a calendar year be met by an equal decrease for other use days is a rule stated to apply from year to year and is applicable to studio and 1BR points regardless of whether there are no dedicated studios and 1BRs. That fact is further supported by the maximum reallocation provisions in section 3.3 which set out the points per day that could apply if there were maximum reallocation resulting in every day of the year having the same point requirements.

In other words, unless you start accepting that the membership agreement actually allows increases in total points applicable to a vacation home in a year without any decreases, or accept DVC's theory that it can move points from one room size to another, which my reading of the membership agreement does not allow, the totals applicable to studios and 1BRs should be consistent from year to year except for those caused by calendar changes. There is a premium for studios and 1BRs, but the chosen premium once any point charts are created needs to remain the same from year to year except that DVC can shift points from one use day to others in the same-size vacation home.

 

[SL6827]

Makes me wonder if they "cook the books" with the dues as well? I mean, there is no real way to have proof that they do or don't, right?

 

[Sandisw]

Point totals applicable to the ownership of entire resort for a year count lock-off 2BRs as 2BRs. The point charts provide for a higher total applicable to total needed to reserve studios and 1BRs separately, but even if there are no dedicated studios and 1BRs, that does not mean those rooms can be raised in a calendar year with no corresponding decrease on different use days.

Once the total points applicable to a studio or 1BR are determined for a calendar year, the total needs to remain the same per use year under section 3.3, subject to modifications due to shifts or increases you may get by changes in the calendar year due to holiday dates or a year or season having more weekend days than a prior year (that kind of natural movement can possibly account for a change of a few thousand points in a year in a resort like BLT from a prior year but likely not a 20,000 point change. The requirement that any increase in a vacation home for any use day during a calendar year be met by an equal decrease for other use days is a rule stated to apply from year to year and is applicable to studio and 1BR points regardless of whether there are no dedicated studios and 1BRs. That fact is further supported by the maximum reallocation provisions in section 3.3 which set out the points per day that could apply if there were maximum reallocation resulting in every day of the year having the same point requirements.

In other words, unless you start accepting that the membership agreement actually allows increases in total points applicable to a vacation home in a year without any decreases, or accept DVC's theory that it can move points from one room size to another, which my reading of the membership agreement does not allow, the totals applicable to studios and 1BRs should be consistent from year to year except for those caused by calendar changes. There is a premium for studios and 1BRs, but the chosen premium once any point charts are created needs to remain the same from year to year except that DVC can shift points from one use day to others in the same-size vacation home.

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense! So, then my review of RIV and BLt seems to be within that line of thinking!

So it sounds like whatever lock off premiums were decided at the beginning can be adjusted but still have to remain within whatever was decided at the beginning or in whatever a base year is when high demand time is/was determined.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Makes me wonder if they "cook the books" with the dues as well? I mean, there is no real way to have proof that they do or don't, right?

In the past there were 3 DVC execs let go for essentially doing so (Aulani) although it was rather a reverse of what you might expect with not having a large enough budget which produced artificially low dues which were seen as productive to contract sales but not representative of what owners would see down the road. The State of Hawaii was the one to question those numbers.

The budgets do have variation possibilities as most of the resorts have allocations of expenses shared with Disney hotels and those allocations just need to be defendable in how they are calculated. Like any allocation that isn't something directly charged it has arguments for different ways of the determining the underlying basis. For example to you allocate pool costs based on # of rooms or # of actual occupants or # of potential occupants or an average of actual room occupants? Each will produce a slightly different number and any are probably justifiable to use so then it's at the discretion of management.

As I understand it an owner has the right to review the books. DVC has required that be done in person at their headquarters. I think I've only read a post from one, possibly two, people that have done that.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Obviously what we have here is another example of the modern, anti-member DVC's belief that it can do anything it wants to do to harm members despite contractual provisions to the contrary. What they said on the call is directly contrary to the DVC Membership Agreement that is part of the POS, section 3.3 in the BWV Agreement (section numbers can differ among resort membership agreements).

That is the section that gives the DVCM the power to create point charts by establishing the Home Resort Vacation Points needed for each "Use Day" in "each Vacation Home." It states that the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points "will remain fixed and will always be symbolic of the Club Member's Ownership interest. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Homes during all Use Days in the condominium must always equal, and be symbolic of Ownership Interests owned by Club members in the Condominium."

It then gives DVCM the power to respond to changes in Use Day demand by making changes to the calendar year point chart by increasing or decreasing the Home Resort Vacation Point requirements for reservation of any given Use Day in a Vacation Home, up to a 20% change per Use Day per calendar year. However, any such "increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCM's right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days."

What they said on the phone is the opposite of the above, asserting DVC can make point increases for Use Days in a Vacation Home without making offsetting decreases. What I am hearing is the same ridiculous justification being made by the modern DVC when it tried to create 2020 point charts that raised studios and 1BRs year round: "DVC is not bound by its prior representations." DVCM, a fiduciary of the members, is improperly asserting it has the right to raise points as high as it wants so that members cannot fill the rooms for much of the year giving DVC the ability to increase Disney's profits by renting more rooms.

Thank you for having that handy and posting. I knew it was there but lacked the time last night to look it up and provide a reference of how the response from the management was incorrect.

 

[CarolMN]

So it sounds like whatever lock off premiums were decided at the beginning can be adjusted but still have to remain within whatever was decided at the beginning or in whatever a base year is when high demand time is/was determined.

Resorts with dedicated studios and 1 bedrooms have an additional "brake" against increasing lock off premiums. Dedicated villas cannot be priced differently from the same size lock off villas.

 

[bobbiwoz]

So, basically, what was said to Minnimoo15 completely ignored the fact that what goes up 20% must be offset by something going down 20%. It may be that with respect to Poly too many things went up.

Am I understanding?

 

[Minniemoo15]

So, basically, what was said to Minnimoo15 completely ignored the fact that what goes up 20% must be offset by something going down 20%. It may be that with respect to Poly too many things went up.

Am I understanding?

I really feel this is the case. It is what initially prompted my research ... my week went up substantially but I did not see similar decreases throughout the year. Then looking into it I noticed PVBs 2022 total points went up to 4,055,000 (from 4,034,592 in 2021) for the first time ever. Before this, the 2016-2021 charts had hovered very closely to the total declared points of 4,032,200.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Thank you...I will be sending a letter or an email.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Resorts with dedicated studios and 1 bedrooms have an additional "brake" against increasing lock off premiums. Dedicated villas cannot be priced differently from the same size lock off villas.

And to add - It should be part of the brake that restricts reallocation between villa sizes as well.

 

[Cabius]

I really feel this is the case. It is what initially prompted my research ... my week went up substantially but I did not see similar decreases throughout the year. Then looking into it I noticed PVBs 2022 total points went up to 4,055,000 (from 4,034,592 in 2021) for the first time ever. Before this, the 2016-2021 charts had hovered very closely to the total declared points of 4,032,200.

The only other possibility would be that they reclassified a bunch of Lagoon-view rooms as Standard-view rooms and the point total is the same, but given what was reported on the management call it seems like they are genuinely just defrauding us PVB owners.

It's much harder to calculate in other resorts -- too many opportunities for lock-off premiums and reclassification of views to muddy the waters -- but this seems ... damning.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

The only other possibility would be that they reclassified a bunch of Lagoon-view rooms as Standard-view rooms and the point total is the same, but given what was reported on the management call it seems like they are genuinely just defrauding us PVB owners.

It's much harder to calculate in other resorts -- too many opportunities for lock-off premiums and reclassification of views to muddy the waters -- but this seems ... damning.

Lakeview going to standard view still wouldn't change point totals and with the #of existing standard view vs # of lakeview it wouldn't hardly nudge the needle for a change in a standard view week. Also, DVC has always noted when they've moved rooms out of a certain view which was not done for Poly so I don't think that's a part of it.

 

[Minniemoo15]

The only other possibility would be that they reclassified a bunch of Lagoon-view rooms as Standard-view rooms and the point total is the same, but given what was reported on the management call it seems like they are genuinely just defrauding us PVB owners.

It's much harder to calculate in other resorts -- too many opportunities for lock-off premiums and reclassification of views to muddy the waters -- but this seems ... damning.

Someone else on another site had suggested a reclassifying views theory. But if some lake views got moved to standard... wouldn’t that be less points in the system and actually lower the point total overall? Just trying to wrap my head around it all

 

[havoc315]

Purely a theory:
They need to sell fewer points than chart points because they can't actually book 100% of the rooms 100% of the days -- There needs to be flexibility for maintenance issue, refurbs, etc. Not every room will be in service every day of the year. Beyond planned refurbs, pipes break, furniture breaks, etc. Types of things that can knock a room out for a few days.
At most resorts, these extra "unbooked" points come from the lockoff premium.

Is it possible that the small increases are simply due to a recognition that more unit downtime is needed for refurb and maintenance?

Unused points & unused rooms don't exactly benefit Disney: Those empty rooms are buying tickets, dining, etc. The only benefit to Disney is that they can rent them out during the breakage period, but that mostly just cannibalizes their own non-DVC resorts. Just saying, as there is no direct benefit to Disney of raising the point charts, I'd look for non-malicious motives.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Purely a theory:
They need to sell fewer points than chart points because they can't actually book 100% of the rooms 100% of the days -- There needs to be flexibility for maintenance issue, refurbs, etc. Not every room will be in service every day of the year. Beyond planned refurbs, pipes break, furniture breaks, etc. Types of things that can knock a room out for a few days.
At most resorts, these extra "unbooked" points come from the lockoff premium.

Is it possible that the small increases are simply due to a recognition that more unit downtime is needed for refurb and maintenance?

Unused points & unused rooms don't exactly benefit Disney: Those empty rooms are buying tickets, dining, etc. The only benefit to Disney is that they can rent them out during the breakage period, but that mostly just cannibalizes their own non-DVC resorts. Just saying, as there is no direct benefit to Disney of raising the point charts, I'd look for non-malicious motives.

Part of the reason DVC is supposed to maintain points is for maintenance. That was already considered in the setup of the system and is I believe a requirement of FL timeshares but am not positive.