Breaking up with Disney?

[DVCSunDevil]

When was the last time that you could ride everything at a Disney park?

Actually, we rode everything at MK when we were there in February. And it came out later that the week we were there was the busiest week over the last two years. We hit 4 rides with G+ and did standby for the others. We got every ride we wanted to ride.

That said, I can also see days when you couldn’t ride every ride if you were getting “skunked” on G+. The point, however, is that both universal and WDW are expensive. I think that those who are somewhat down on Disney right now are trying to make a point that Universal is some vastly cheaper alternative. It isn’t. It’s just as busy and just as expensive.

Personally, we like both options. We like the rides at Universal but we like the vibe and “connection” of WDW. We know both trips are going to beat the hell out of our wallet. But now that we are DVC members, the cost of a WDW trip is extremely less expensive than a Universal trip.

 

[zillayen]

The point, however, is that both universal and WDW are expensive. I think that those who are somewhat down on Disney right now are trying to make a point that Universal is some vastly cheaper alternative. It isn’t. It’s just as busy and just as expensive.

Personally, we like both options. We like the rides at Universal but we like the vibe and “connection” of WDW. We know both trips are going to beat the hell out of our wallet. But now that we are DVC members, the cost of a WDW trip is extremely less expensive than a Universal trip.

You are obviously able to save a lot of $$ because you're DVC. But if you are paying for hotels, Universal CAN BE less expensive than WDW on a per day basis and offers a better logistical experience. I think both parts of our vacation were exorbitantly expensive and realize not everyone can afford to stay premier/Deluxe, but let's compare cost in terms of hotels, length of stay, and park tickets.

Here's numbers from our Spring Break trip. For Universal, we paid $2562.75 to stay at Portofino and used 3 days of unlimited EP. Staying onsite you also get 1 hour of early entry into the parks. We paid $1520.80 for four 3 day park to park tickets with 2 days free. That was for 4 people total so per person for 3 days we paid $340.30 per day for hotel + park tickets (I'm not counting the 2 days free). We did not have to make a park reservation or any ride reservations and could park hop as much and as early as we wanted.

For Disney, we paid $2544.06 to stay at the Dolphin which included 2 hours of EEH at MK and 30 min early entry to the parks. We paid $2235.56 for four 3 day park hoppers with Genie+. We spent an additional $60 on ILL for RoTR. For 4 people, that comes out to $403.30 per day, no express pass, just EEH which we did not use. We had to reserve a park per day and could not park hop until after 2 pm.

We did not plan ahead so we paid rack rates. You can see from this that the hotel was comparable, but include a far better perk in the unlimited EP. The WDW park tickets were considerably more expensive when you consider that we actually had 5 days of Universal park tickets for what we paid. And, we converted those tickets into APs before we left so we are covered for our next 2 trips. I don't think WDW is allowing you to do that right now.

I just keep seeing people say that Universal is "just as expensive" as WDW and in our experience, it was less expensive and a better value.

 

[Brian Noble]

So you think they should price out the middle class?

There is so much to unpack here that I’m not sure where to start.

First, what is the middle class? For most people, the middle class is defined as “about what I make,” no matter what they make. But, if you take one common definition, it ranges from $45K to $140K in household income. Folks at the bottom of that range have probably seen WDW as at best an aspirational once-in-a-blue-moon luxury for a long time now. Folks at the top of that range might have to decide to forgo some other expense somewhere, but if they prioritize Disney they can (and will) still go.

Second, why is the middle class special? Why should anyone be priced out? But someone will be at almost any price point. Once you arrive at that conclusion, one is only arguing about who “deserves” to be able to afford it and who doesn’t. This gets back to the definition (“about what I make”) and is tied into a whole lot of mythology about what our economy represents and how one does/does not become successful in it.

Third, what does “priced out” mean? For most people using the term, I suspect it doesn’t literally mean “I cannot afford it and still meet the daily necessities of life.” Instead, I think it usually means “It is not important enough to me to spend that much money on.” Presumably, most guests are not spending their only discretionary income on a Disney vacation. If the price goes up faster than their discretionary spending, they can decide to keep Disney but forgo some other discretionary expense, or forgo Disney and keep (and maybe add to) their other discretionary spending. That’s what “discretionary” means.

Finally, why should anyone believe they are entitled to be able to afford a Disney vacation, no matter what their income happens to be? We aren’t talking about housing or medical care—both of which are things that many people are “priced out” of now. Disney is not some public good, like parks or libraries. It’s a vacation, and not just a vacation but a relatively high-end one compared to many alternatives.

Edited to add: This reminds me of a long-running multi-year discussion on another theme park enthusiast board, which can be summarized in a very tongue-in-cheek way as: “Disney hates poor people.” (Parts NSFW)

 

[DVCSunDevil]

You are obviously able to save a lot of $$ because you're DVC. But if you are paying for hotels, Universal CAN BE less expensive than WDW on a per day basis and offers a better logistical experience. I think both parts of our vacation were exorbitantly expensive and realize not everyone can afford to stay premier/Deluxe, but let's compare cost in terms of hotels, length of stay, and park tickets.

Here's numbers from our Spring Break trip. For Universal, we paid $2562.75 to stay at Portofino and used 3 days of unlimited EP. Staying onsite you also get 1 hour of early entry into the parks. We paid $1520.80 for four 3 day park to park tickets with 2 days free. That was for 4 people total so per person for 3 days we paid $340.30 per day for hotel + park tickets (I'm not counting the 2 days free). We did not have to make a park reservation or any ride reservations and could park hop as much and as early as we wanted.

For Disney, we paid $2544.06 to stay at the Dolphin which included 2 hours of EEH at MK and 30 min early entry to the parks. We paid $2235.56 for four 3 day park hoppers with Genie+. We spent an additional $60 on ILL for RoTR. For 4 people, that comes out to $403.30 per day, no express pass, just EEH which we did not use. We had to reserve a park per day and could not park hop until after 2 pm.

We did not plan ahead so we paid rack rates. You can see from this that the hotel was comparable, but include a far better perk in the unlimited EP. The WDW park tickets were considerably more expensive when you consider that we actually had 5 days of Universal park tickets for what we paid. And, we converted those tickets into APs before we left so we are covered for our next 2 trips. I don't think WDW is allowing you to do that right now.

I just keep seeing people say that Universal is "just as expensive" as WDW and in our experience, it was less expensive and a better value.

Thanks for sharing the details! I wonder how much is related to time of year and deals? We have done Universal twice. Once was very similar to your experience where Universal priced out much more favorably compared to WDW. The other time (the most recent time, actually) WDW was actually considerably less expensive than Universal. I think the relative price “savings” between the two will fluctuate. Both, though, are expensive.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Our local transportation agency does that so I'm not sure why a private corporation wouldn't do it. The tolls on our freeways vary with demand. You will pay $20+ in tolls per day to drive on the 405 express toll lanes if you work in downtown Bellevue. The toll bridge between Seattle and Bellevue is $13+ per day if you travel at rush hour. Add on $900+ a year in car tabs and some of the highest gas taxes in the country.... Yes they have priced out the middle class in the Puget Sound.

Add to that the fact that you're forced to buy a Subaru when you move there too.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

There is so much to unpack here that I’m not sure where to start.

First, what is the middle class? For most people, the middle class is defined as “about what I make,” no matter what they make. But, if you take one common definition, it ranges from $45K to $140K in household income. Folks at the bottom of that range have probably seen WDW as at best an aspirational once-in-a-blue-moon luxury for a long time now. Folks at the top of that range might have to decide to forgo some other expense somewhere, but if they prioritize Disney they can (and will) still go.

Second, why is the middle class special? Why should anyone be priced out? But someone will be at almost any price point. Once you arrive at that conclusion, one is only arguing about who “deserves” to be able to afford it and who doesn’t. This gets back to the definition (“about what I make”) and is tied into a whole lot of mythology about what our economy represents and how one does/does not become successful in it.

Third, what does “priced out” mean? For most people using the term, I suspect it doesn’t literally mean “I cannot afford it and still meet the daily necessities of life.” Instead, I think it usually means “It is not important enough to me to spend that much money on.” Presumably, most guests are not spending their only discretionary income on a Disney vacation. If the price goes up faster than their discretionary spending, they can decide to keep Disney but forgo some other discretionary expense, or forgo Disney and keep (and maybe add to) their other discretionary spending. That’s what “discretionary” means.

Finally, why should anyone believe they are entitled to be able to afford a Disney vacation, no matter what their income happens to be? We aren’t talking about housing or medical care—both of which are things that many people are “priced out” of now. Disney is not some public good, like parks or libraries. It’s a vacation, and not just a vacation but a relatively high-end one compared to many alternatives.

Edited to add: This reminds me of a long-running multi-year discussion on another theme park enthusiast board, which can be summarized in a very tongue-in-cheek way as: “Disney hates poor people.” (Parts NSFW)

Wow. It was an extremely simple question.
You just may have read waaaaaaaay too much into that.

 

[harmon54]

You are obviously able to save a lot of $$ because you're DVC. But if you are paying for hotels, Universal CAN BE less expensive than WDW on a per day basis and offers a better logistical experience. I think both parts of our vacation were exorbitantly expensive and realize not everyone can afford to stay premier/Deluxe, but let's compare cost in terms of hotels, length of stay, and park tickets.

Here's numbers from our Spring Break trip. For Universal, we paid $2562.75 to stay at Portofino and used 3 days of unlimited EP. Staying onsite you also get 1 hour of early entry into the parks. We paid $1520.80 for four 3 day park to park tickets with 2 days free. That was for 4 people total so per person for 3 days we paid $340.30 per day for hotel + park tickets (I'm not counting the 2 days free). We did not have to make a park reservation or any ride reservations and could park hop as much and as early as we wanted.

For Disney, we paid $2544.06 to stay at the Dolphin which included 2 hours of EEH at MK and 30 min early entry to the parks. We paid $2235.56 for four 3 day park hoppers with Genie+. We spent an additional $60 on ILL for RoTR. For 4 people, that comes out to $403.30 per day, no express pass, just EEH which we did not use. We had to reserve a park per day and could not park hop until after 2 pm.

We did not plan ahead so we paid rack rates. You can see from this that the hotel was comparable, but include a far better perk in the unlimited EP. The WDW park tickets were considerably more expensive when you consider that we actually had 5 days of Universal park tickets for what we paid. And, we converted those tickets into APs before we left so we are covered for our next 2 trips. I don't think WDW is allowing you to do that right now.

I just keep seeing people say that Universal is "just as expensive" as WDW and in our experience, it was less expensive and a better value.

Plus those Universal APs can get you a very good AP rate at the deluxe hotels! At least they used to on certain dates and then you get the express passes again when you go and can walk or boat to the parks so should be compared to similar hotels at Disney not Swan. We are DVC members now and still love Disney as it is a different feel but I agree that Universal overall is a cheaper and easier trip to take especially last minute. And the Universal value hotels are amazing- Cabana bay is a favorite as well and volcano bay is great- even though we did have problems with their front of the line tapus there on our last trip.

 

[Drew729]

Plus those Universal APs can get you a very good AP rate at the deluxe hotels! At least they used to on certain dates and then you get the express passes again when you go and can walk or boat to the parks so should be compared to similar hotels at Disney not Swan. We are DVC members now and still love Disney as it is a different feel but I agree that Universal overall is a cheaper and easier trip to take especially last minute. And the Universal value hotels are amazing- Cabana bay is a favorite as well and volcano bay is great- even though we did have problems with their front of the line tapus there on our last trip.

Thanks for sharing the details! I wonder how much is related to time of year and deals? We have done Universal twice. Once was very similar to your experience where Universal priced out much more favorably compared to WDW. The other time (the most recent time, actually) WDW was actually considerably less expensive than Universal. I think the relative price “savings” between the two will fluctuate. Both, though, are expensive.

We have Universal APs and DVC. We stay a week in our DVC but book one night at a premiere hotel to get two full days (check in and checkout day) express pass.

Our recent trip it was around $300 for the room for one night but the daily cost for express pass $300/2 days = $150 per day/4 people = $37.50 per person per day. It is by far the cheapest way to get an express pass. Even without the AP and even if the room rates were higher it is worth it especially during the busier weeks.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I think it is absolutely okay to temper expectations.

Sure. But there is a distinct difference between the advice that some of us routinely give people who are visiting WDW for the first time "Get comfortable with the fact that you will not be able to see EVERYTHING. There is just so much to do there!"

VS the advice they more then often get on these boards "Don't go. Save your money. Disney sucks."Indeed one of the most liked threads on the Disney planning boards stated "My advice for how to get the most out of your Disney vacation in 2022. Don't go".

That's not "tempering expectations".

 

[DduzDis]

Sure. But there is a distinct difference between the advice that some of us routinely give people who are visiting WDW for the first time "Get comfortable with the fact that you will not be able to see EVERYTHING. There is just so much to do there!"

VS the advice they more then often get on these boards "Don't go. Save your money. Disney sucks."Indeed one of the most liked threads on the Disney planning boards stated "My advice for how to get the most out of your Disney vacation in 2022. Don't go".

That's not "tempering expectations".

I do think it is sound advice for the once in a lifetime family that can't afford to go again if they don't get to do everything they hope to, because the system simply doesn't allow for it. I would absolutely tell a family in this situation (and have) that it might be best to wait a year or two to A) see if the revenge travel eases up and B) see if there are improvements to the system to allow for better planning. Naturally, nobody knows for sure how the trip will go and we still have to bob and weave with changes as well. But, there are many limitations well known in advance that can be communicated and let them decide if it could meet their expectations. If big hugs from Pooh would make or break a trip, that simply was not a possibility until even next week (if then). If getting an undistanced picture with the Evil Queen at Storybook Dining is a make or break for a trip, it is simply not possible. Those are the points I make when covering possibilities. To some without those options (and there are still many things not open or available) Disney would suck. I think it is an important honest conversation to have if it makes a difference to the family inquiring.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I definitely see both sides of the argument. For me, however, I do always struggle with the people who say "We spent a week in Rome last year. They wouldn't let us take pictures in the Sistine Chapel, and it totally ruined the whole trip".

 

[DduzDis]

I definitely see both sides of the argument. For me, however, I do always struggle with the people who say "We spent a week in Rome last year. They wouldn't let us take pictures in the Sistine Chapel, and it totally ruined the whole trip".

These need to be tailored discussions as there is no one perfect trip for everyone. If the person could have (or should have) known pictures were forbidden and they would have cancelled as a result, it would have been great to know in advance I would think.

But, I think the discussion is more specific items of interest that are possible or not vs the general WDW bashing that takes place.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

If big hugs from Pooh would make or break a trip, that simply was not a possibility until even next week (if then). If getting an undistanced picture with the Evil Queen at Storybook Dining is a make or break for a trip, it is simply not possible. Those are the points I make when covering possibilities.

I can't tell if you are deliberately trying to alter my argument to make a point or if you are just not understanding what I am trying to explain. Because clearly the above was NOT my point.

Either way, I think I have made my point. We in social media tend to show the most negative side of everything. The very fact that we are having this conversation is exactly the point I am making. Even a post that just says we could do a better job of being positive must have negative comments and be dragged through the mud until someone can point and say "SEE! Positive is bad!!! Negative is correct!".

Point made. I'm done.

 

[DduzDis]

I can't tell if you are deliberately trying to alter my argument to make a point or if you are just not understanding what I am trying to explain. Because clearly the above was NOT my point.

Either way, I think I have made my point. We in social media tend to show the most negative side of everything. The very fact that we are having this conversation is exactly the point I am making. Even a post that just says we could do a better job of being positive must have negative comments and be dragged through the mud until someone can point and say "SEE! Positive is bad!!! Negative is correct!".

Point made. I'm done.

Ummm okay. I made my comment about a family's choice based on what they may need to accomplish to feel good about spending the money, not at all anything about your comments. You do you, friend. Not everyone thinks as you do and I think you seem to be finding some difficulty with that. Point made.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

I do think it is sound advice for the once in a lifetime family that can't afford to go again if they don't get to do everything they hope to, because the system simply doesn't allow for it.

This is the point I feel is being blown out of proportion. As I said in a previous comment, WDW has always been busy and line skipping options have always been flawed. There were days during the FP time when my family couldn't ride every ride we wanted to at a particular park in one day, and there were also days we could ride every ride we wanted to. Heck, just during our last trip in February (the busiest week in two years, by the way) we were able to ride every ride we wanted at MK in one day. But then we couldn't hit everything at HS the next day. It has always been like this...it isn't a new development. And the families I know that only do WDW every 8 years or so do 6 days of parks over their week stay. That allows them to hit everything, and they hit most things multiple times. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but anyone I know that has done a WDW vacation has done at least a week long trip. And if you are doing 5-6 days of parks in that trip you can most definitely hit every single attraction you want.

I think making it sound like a family is saving for 20 years to do a WDW vacation and then only being able to hit a few rides is not accurate. Whatever issues a family would encounter now are pretty much the same issues they would have encountered 5, 10, or 15 years ago. Crowds were bad then and line skipping options were flawed, too.

 

[DonMacGregor]

These need to be tailored discussions as there is no one perfect trip for everyone. If the person could have (or should have) known pictures were forbidden and they would have cancelled as a result, it would have been great to know in advance I would think.

Maybe I’ll use a less specific analogy next time.

My point was that no matter where you go, or how much you spend, if you define the success or failure of your trip based on a single variable, when numerous others exist, then you are setting yourself up, or allowing others to be set up for disappointment.

 

[BeachClub2014]

My point was that no matter where you go, or how much you spend, if you define the success or failure of your trip based on a single variable, when numerous others exist, then you are setting yourself up, or allowing others to be set up for disappointment.

You nailed it. I think some people have also placed the bar so high on the metric for "success" that any little hiccup or annoyance looms large in their overall assessment. Maybe our family is just plain lucky or dumb, but we've never had a bad trip to Disney. We've had bad and annoying things happen during a trip, but never had a bad trip.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I think making it sound like a family is saving for 20 years to do a WDW vacation and then only being able to hit a few rides is not accurate. Whatever issues a family would encounter now are pretty much the same issues they would have encountered 5, 10, or 15 years ago. Crowds were bad then and line skipping options were flawed, too.

So 2 points here.... First, is you are absolutely correct in your earlier assessment - no matter how you slice it, not every ride can handle every person in the park. That's just a given fact. Only the omnimovers and very high capacity rides even get close. The ride that handles the most people (when it's open) is TTMA, and that at 55K on a 12 hour day, which tops right around the MK average of 57K per day. They only go down from there - and by quite a lot. Plus that's assuming no breakdowns. As you indicate, there are many ways to slice the cake, and affect which people get priority on the ride, but the only way the rides can handle a full park is if there are less people in the park, or the rides have multiple tracks (construction) to bring them up to that level.

Second, that's JUST RIDES.... You are NEVER going to see everything in WDW. There is JUST SO MUCH TO SEE AND DO. Besides the attractions themselves, there are park tours, hidden mickeys, places to eat. There are the water parks. There is mini golf, and Disney Springs. There are cruises and boating (right now minimal). There are pools and arts and crafts. That's just the TIP of the iceberg.

People come to the boards and say they want to see everything, and the first reaction MUST always be - "define everything" because in WDW it doesn't mean what you think it means.

My point was that no matter where you go, or how much you spend, if you define the success or failure of your trip based on a single variable, when numerous others exist, then you are setting yourself up, or allowing others to be set up for disappointment.

I honestly know very few people who have ever said to me during their planning phase "If I do not see the fireworks, my trip has failed" or "if I do not hug Pooh Bear, my trip is a waste". I am sure there ARE people like that. However in my experience people who do not go to Disney very often have NO IDEA what the options are so generally do not lock it down to a single thing like that. They do lock it down to a more general theme - i.e. "we are star wars fans and really want to see some star wars stuff" which gives you a couple of options.

You nailed it. I think some people have also placed the bar so high on the metric for "success" that any little hiccup or annoyance looms large in their overall assessment. Maybe our family is just plain lucky or dumb, but we've never had a bad trip to Disney. We've had bad and annoying things happen during a trip, but never had a bad trip.

So this goes back to my earlier post.... If you go to Disney expecting a bad time, then a bad time you shall have. If you go in determined that you read on these boards that you MUST be in room 1816, and otherwise the trip will suck, then be prepared for it to suck. If you go in pounding your fists that you must get into your room at 2:20pm and DISNEY had BETTER comply, then guess what.... If you define your trip by how good a seat you got at Space 220...

What you get out of a vacation is generally what you put into it (and this is not just Disney) and by that I do not mean cash. When I sit down to eat, if I a CM looks stressed beyond belief, I start off with a smile and letting them know I am easy going and they can relax with my table AND I FOLLOW THROUGH WITH THAT be being easy going.

But I am going to fall back on what I said earlier - I think the boards (as in this place and others) and the FB sites are not doing a ton of favors. We tend to define people's success and failure for them - and narrowly, and set them up for failure. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DduzDis]

This is the point I feel is being blown out of proportion. As I said in a previous comment, WDW has always been busy and line skipping options have always been flawed. There were days during the FP time when my family couldn't ride every ride we wanted to at a particular park in one day, and there were also days we could ride every ride we wanted to. Heck, just during our last trip in February (the busiest week in two years, by the way) we were able to ride every ride we wanted at MK in one day. But then we couldn't hit everything at HS the next day. It has always been like this...it isn't a new development. And the families I know that only do WDW every 8 years or so do 6 days of parks over their week stay. That allows them to hit everything, and they hit most things multiple times. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but anyone I know that has done a WDW vacation has done at least a week long trip. And if you are doing 5-6 days of parks in that trip you can most definitely hit every single attraction you want.

I think making it sound like a family is saving for 20 years to do a WDW vacation and then only being able to hit a few rides is not accurate. Whatever issues a family would encounter now are pretty much the same issues they would have encountered 5, 10, or 15 years ago. Crowds were bad then and line skipping options were flawed, too.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Mine happens to differ. The overall experience is less in my own opinion from planning to ADRs. Things are not open or available so it squeezes things that are. I think those shortcomings will be remedied with some patience. It's just my own opinion and nobody is required to take it or honor it.

 

[BeachClub2014]

But I am going to fall back on what I said earlier - I think the boards (as in this place and others) and the FB sites are not doing a ton of favors. We tend to define people's success and failure for them - and narrowly, and set them up for failure. Just my 2 cents.

You'll get no argument from me on this point.