Marathon Weekend 2022

@GreatLakes am curious on your BQ strategy. I have lived it and will again once I clear up these injuries. weather could really be a drag on your BQ attempt, so can the stupid early wake up and hanging around for two hours before the start of the race. if conditions suck and you are not feeling it would you pull back from the BQ and finish easy in hoping to get another attempt at it? I think about this a lot because I am only good for about 2 marathons per year and generally I don’t do that. To me Disney is a not the best BQ attempt, lots of wildcards. Not saying you should not try but if it’s not happening do you pull back or keep grinding?

Weighing in here @GreatLakes to give you another point of view in case the race conditions aren't to your liking. In October I ran a marathon that I crammed for, but the temps weren't ideal (for me) and I was a bit overwhelmed by everything. Midway through the race, I dialed my effort down a bit and just tried to finish the race relatively strong. This turned out to be a 26.2 mile long training run because I ran another marathon 26 days later and PR'd in much cooler (better for me) conditions. My point is that you have obviously put in the work, but if things aren't perfect on Marathon day it's possible you could consider easing up a bit and then rebound at another race a few weeks later. The training is already there, and if you don't overdo it in WDW, it might be possible to ride that fitness wave for several weeks after WDW. This isn't necessarily a recommendation, just letting you know that I have tested this theory ONE TIME (only) and it worked for me.
 
@cburnett11 that is the kind of info i was looking for. I mean for me that BQ is very hard. Obviously i have done it once before but i left everything out there for that race. So i feel like i have to have sort of perfect conditions, well at least good training and some ok weather. Race i BQ'd was ok weather it was cool but rainy. However the one thing i noticed was how much better it was to sleep till 6 that morning and not stand around for 2 hours before the race compared to a Disney race.
 
tell me you're tapering without telling me you're tapering

I held off as long as I could stand it, but today I started making my packing list. Scratch that. First I checked the forecast. Than I made an outline of what I might need to wear for each day based on the weather plus some colder weather layers, and THEN I made a packing list. For clothes. And then race clothes. And then all of the treatment stuff I might need after the races. And it's a lot. Even with a washer and dryer in our room. I mean, between myself and DH we could probably fill a carry-on with JUST our shoes. And that's a little embarrassing. And what's even WORSE is that I'm considering an additional pair just for our park day. Tell me 5 pairs of shoes for a 6 day trip isn't too many. :scared:

Also the kids and I cleaned the upstairs today. And I purged the bookshelves.

And I started filling my online cart with stuff for our Walmart pick-up order for next Wednesday (can select a time tomorrow.)

And I checked again on the car rental prices, and what do you know, it's another $25 cheaper today.
 
I mean, between myself and DH we could probably fill a carry-on with JUST our shoes. And that's a little embarrassing. And what's even WORSE is that I'm considering an additional pair just for our park day. Tell me 5 pairs of shoes for a 6 day trip isn't too many. :scared:
5 pairs of shoes for a 6 day (runDisney) trip isn’t too many! :thumbsup2

Disclaimer: I’m only there 2 days and I‘ll have 3 (regular sneakers, running sneakers & comfy shoes for recovery) so I guess you have to consider the source! :laughing:
 
5 pairs of shoes for a 6 day (runDisney) trip isn’t too many! :thumbsup2

Right? To be fair it's: 1 pair for the half, 1 pair for the full, 1 pair for on the plane and disney springs meals (because I just can't bring myself to wear running shoes with a dress), 1 pair for MK day, and a pair of sandals for to/from the pool. That makes it sound completely reasonable. :rolleyes1
 
@GreatLakes am curious on your BQ strategy. I have lived it and will again once I clear up these injuries. weather could really be a drag on your BQ attempt, so can the stupid early wake up and hanging around for two hours before the start of the race. if conditions suck and you are not feeling it would you pull back from the BQ and finish easy in hoping to get another attempt at it? I think about this a lot because I am only good for about 2 marathons per year and generally I don’t do that. To me Disney is a not the best BQ attempt, lots of wildcards. Not saying you should not try but if it’s not happening do you pull back or keep grinding?

good luck to you. I am hoping for a BQ attempt in Dec 2022. Had originally been looking at Grandma’s this June but with my current injury I think getting healthy and fitness back will take longer than 6 months.

I've been going through these exact questions in my own mind. I am driving to the race so I can always climb into the back of my car for a bit before heading to the staging area but I'm not too concerned about standing around in the cold. I'll have throw away clothing and whatever fueling I need in the car so as much as I don't like driving to the races in this instance it makes some things easier.

I'm going to be using the Garmin PacePro and aiming for even splits so I'll know in real time where I am against my projected finish. My plan is to go out as normal and hang on as long as I can. If I am feeling good I might go out a few seconds, and I mean 10 seconds/mile, fast just to have that visual bank but I don't want to burn too many matches early even though that will be the best weather. I feel like all my training runs have hit their marks (some info included in the answer to @DopeyBadger below) and while I don't want to run in the mid to high 60s it is what it is. I've done some hot efforts this year and know I can handle it to a point. I'm mostly worried about the psychological impact of the heat. My plan is to keep on 3:10 pace and settle back to 3:15 if I have to. The conundrum comes if I have to slow from 3:15. Do I still try to hit 3:20 knowing even as a BQ it will not get me in most years or really scale back and live to try and BQ a spring full? I will have to make that decision in the moment.

What are some recent race times?

I had some really great fall races but with the exception of 2 there are some caveats.

On Christmas Eve I ran my 5 mile race PR at 30:42. I had the course slightly short but even if that was the case it was a substantial PR even from my faster days. The course has been the same since 2016 and before this year my PR on it was 33:19.

I ran a 19:19 5K in October which was the fastest full course 5K (not showing under 3) I've run since 2012

I ran a 19:23 on a hilly course that while slower than that 19:19 was a much harder course. My fastest time on that course before this year, and it has never changed, was 21:17 for comparison.

I ran a very hilly trail half in 1:42:40 which would be a bad road time but was good for 6th overall.

I ran another very hilly trail 15K in 1:09:57 and that was a series race. In February we ran the exact same course, just in reverse, and I could only manage a 1:16:57 which is a big drop in 9 months over 9.3 miles.

More importantly I managed to hit all of my workouts. The biggest indicator for me was that I was able to run my two 18 mile training runs, which included 12 at M pace, without feeling really burned out. The first of those two was the day before I started showing COVID symptoms so I already had it and some of the run was into 20 mph winds so that one I really felt confident after.

All of my VDOT equivalent efforts, like 2 miles at HM pace with a 1 mile recovery and 2 mile warm up and cool down or the 12 x 400m at 5K pace with 200 recovery and a 2 mile warm up and cool down all went off without missing any splits.

I only have two runs of substance left. Tomorrow is 12 with the middle 8 at M pace and then on the 5th I have 8 x 400m at 5K pace with 400m recovery and a 2 mile warm up and cool down. I had my booster yesterday so if I can't do that run tomorrow I'll do it Friday in place of an easy 4.

Weighing in here @GreatLakes to give you another point of view in case the race conditions aren't to your liking. In October I ran a marathon that I crammed for, but the temps weren't ideal (for me) and I was a bit overwhelmed by everything. Midway through the race, I dialed my effort down a bit and just tried to finish the race relatively strong. This turned out to be a 26.2 mile long training run because I ran another marathon 26 days later and PR'd in much cooler (better for me) conditions. My point is that you have obviously put in the work, but if things aren't perfect on Marathon day it's possible you could consider easing up a bit and then rebound at another race a few weeks later. The training is already there, and if you don't overdo it in WDW, it might be possible to ride that fitness wave for several weeks after WDW. This isn't necessarily a recommendation, just letting you know that I have tested this theory ONE TIME (only) and it worked for me.

This is on the table but would be my last resort. I totally changed my marathon training for this and put in substantially more miles than I ever have before. At some point I will need to recover to not risk an overuse injury. If I have to back way down because the weather or stomach issues or something else just pulls me out of contention for a BQ I'll have to really weigh how to do a spring marathon and try again in cooler weather. I'm sure I could take a month of lower mileage and ramp back up to some level slightly lower than this cycle but high enough to use my base but if that time comes I'll need to figure it out.
 
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I mean, between myself and DH we could probably fill a carry-on with JUST our shoes. And that's a little embarrassing. And what's even WORSE is that I'm considering an additional pair just for our park day. Tell me 5 pairs of shoes for a 6 day trip isn't too many. :scared:

I'll of course have my running shoes, my canvas Disney Crocs, my Mickey Mouse Vans and a good pair of comfortable hiking boots. I can only handle my Vans for about a half day (maybe like just World Showcase or something) before my feet really start hurting but they just look so cool I can't NOT bring them.
 
So, people are worried that it's going to be too hot? I did not think this would be an issue in January, even in Florida.
 
I'm going to be using the Garmin PacePro and aiming for even splits so I'll know in real time where I am against my projected finish. My plan is to go out as normal and hang on as long as I can. If I am feeling good I might go out a few seconds, and I mean 10 seconds/mile, fast just to have that visual bank but I don't want to burn too many matches early even though that will be the best weather. I feel like all my training runs have hit their marks (some info included in the answer to @DopeyBadger below) and while I don't want to run in the mid to high 60s it is what it is. I've done some hot efforts this year and know I can handle it to a point. I'm mostly worried about the psychological impact of the heat. My plan is to keep on 3:10 pace and settle back to 3:15 if I have to. The conundrum comes if I have to slow from 3:15. Do I still try to hit 3:20 knowing even as a BQ it will not get me in most years or really scale back and live to try and BQ a spring full? I will have to make that decision in the moment.
I am hoping everything is feeling great and you don't have to make this decision but i can't wait to find out how it goes. That is my problem with the BQ, I can't just run a marathon full out every month and hope one is when the moon and the stars align. I mean sometimes it is not weather, GI issues, sleep issues, great training and sickness hits right before. I am not going for BQ this trip but i feel your pain.
 
So, people are worried that it's going to be too hot? I did not think this would be an issue in January, even in Florida.

Unfortunately, the marathon has a history of being too hot - in 2020 they had to shorten the course because it just got too hot. Florida is always throwing not-so-fun surprise weather at runDisney runners.
 
I had some really great fall races but with the exception 2 there are some caveats.

On Christmas Eve I ran my 5 mile race PR at 30:42. I had the course slightly short but even if that was the case it was a substantial PR even from my faster days. The course has been the same since 2016 and before this year my PR on it was 33:19.

I ran a 19:19 5K in October which was the fastest full course 5K (not showing under 3) I've run since 2012

I ran a 19:23 on a hilly course that while slower than that 19:19 was a much harder course. My fastest time on that course before this year, and it has never changed, was 21:17 for comparison.

I ran a very hilly trail half in 1:42:40 which would be a bad road time but was good for 6th overall.

I ran another very hilly trail 15K in 1:09:57 and that was a series race. In February we ran the exact same course, just in reverse, and I could only manage a 1:16:57 which is a big drop in 9 months over 9.3 miles.

More importantly I managed to hit all of my workouts. The biggest indicator for me was that I was able to run my two 18 mile training runs, which included 12 at M pace, without feeling really burned out. The first of those two was the day before I started showing COVID symptoms so I already had it and some of the run was into 20 mph winds so that one I really felt confident after.

All of my VDOT equivalent efforts, like 2 miles at HM pace with a 1 mile recovery and 2 mile warm up and cool down or the 12 x 400m at 5K pace with 200 recovery and a 2 mile warm up and cool down all went off without missing any splits.

Great info.

The 30:42 translates to a 18:39 5k. So that's easily the best of the bunch. What was the GPS pace for that race since you measured it slightly short?

I won't use the trail runs because it's always hard to translate those into road races.

I know the plan you're on and know it will prepare you well if you follow it. It sounds like you did/were able to. Which leads me to believe you will be a better converter.

If I use the 30:42 8k, then I get a 1:25:49 HM. If I use the 19:19 5k, then I get a 1:28:52 HM.

Under similar conditions to those other races, I would give you the following projections based on real world data from Williams and Vickers:

Screen Shot 2021-12-29 at 3.36.04 PM.png

If your fitness is of a 1:25:49 HM runner, then roughly 54% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 75% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 86% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

If your fitness is of a 1:28:52 HM runner, then roughly 24% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 45% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 65% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

But these values assume equal weather conditions, and currently it's projected to be slightly hot. I would give it a +1.5 to the VDOT value. That would be a heat adjusted 1:27:50 and 1:31:15. So that would be:

Screen Shot 2021-12-29 at 3.40.27 PM.png

If your fitness is of a 1:27:50 HM runner, then roughly 30% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 54% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 70% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

If your fitness is of a 1:31:15 HM runner, then roughly 6% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 22% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 41% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

From my data, those who use a plan like the one you did, tend to be better converters than the general population. So using my own data set, I would say a 50% chance of 3:08 if you're truly a 1:27:50 HM runner in the heat, and a 50% chance of 3:15:36 if you're truly a 1:31:15 runner in the heat.

My plan is to keep on 3:10 pace and settle back to 3:15 if I have to. The conundrum comes if I have to slow from 3:15. Do I still try to hit 3:20 knowing even as a BQ it will not get me in most years or really scale back and live to try and BQ a spring full? I will have to make that decision in the moment.

I would actually recommend the opposite, but it comes down to the level of risk you want to accept. When going through pacing choices, I typically offer two options. Something like:

Option A - aggressive (aim for 3:10)
25% chance of 3:10
75% chance of 3:25

Option B - conservative (aim for 3:16)
50% chance of 3:16
50% chance of 3:18

Is the risk of a potential 3:10 worth the chance that you completely miss the BQ by finishing in 3:25. Or is it more valuable to you to hit that bare minimum goal of a 3:15?

If it were me, I'd recommend the opposite strategy. Instead of aiming for 3:10, and then adjusting slower if you have to. I'd aim for 3:15 through say 16-17 miles or so. If you can pick up the pace at Mile 17, then you know you probably could have gone faster from the start. But then with your picked up pace, you'd still gain 11 second per mile after that which is nearly 2 min of time after 9-10 more miles. That would give you a 3:13ish finish. But if the reverse happens and you attempt to pick up the pace at Mile 17 and feel like you can't, then try and maintain. But be thankful in post-run review that if you had gone for 3:10 you would have likely blown up even worse than where-ever you finish.

But that's my mindset in terms of pacing decisions given where your data is and there's definitely other mindsets for approaching it.
 
So, people are worried that it's going to be too hot? I did not think this would be an issue in January, even in Florida.

For me, the weather is going to be just right! I am used to running in the mid day Houston summer heat where its 90 degrees and like 75% humidity. Heck, this week it has been in the 80's while running in the afternoon. I am excited it won't be freezing in the corrals. Plus a little warmer weather equals less snot rockets! :crazy2:
 
Great info.

The 30:42 translates to a 18:39 5k. So that's easily the best of the bunch. What was the GPS pace for that race since you measured it slightly short?

I won't use the trail runs because it's always hard to translate those into road races.

I know the plan you're on and know it will prepare you well if you follow it. It sounds like you did/were able to. Which leads me to believe you will be a better converter.

If I use the 30:42 8k, then I get a 1:25:49 HM. If I use the 19:19 5k, then I get a 1:28:52 HM.

Under similar conditions to those other races, I would give you the following projections based on real world data from Williams and Vickers:

View attachment 634186

If your fitness is of a 1:25:49 HM runner, then roughly 54% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 75% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 86% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

If your fitness is of a 1:28:52 HM runner, then roughly 24% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 45% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 65% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

But these values assume equal weather conditions, and currently it's projected to be slightly hot. I would give it a +1.5 to the VDOT value. That would be a heat adjusted 1:27:50 and 1:31:15. So that would be:

View attachment 634190

If your fitness is of a 1:27:50 HM runner, then roughly 30% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 54% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 70% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

If your fitness is of a 1:31:15 HM runner, then roughly 6% of runners run a 3:10 or better, 22% of runners run a 3:15 or better, and 41% of runners run a 3:20 or better.

From my data, those who use a plan like the one you did, tend to be better converters than the general population. So using my own data set, I would say a 50% chance of 3:08 if you're truly a 1:27:50 HM runner in the heat, and a 50% chance of 3:15:36 if you're truly a 1:31:15 runner in the heat.



I would actually recommend the opposite, but it comes down to the level of risk you want to accept. When going through pacing choices, I typically offer two options. Something like:

Option A - aggressive (aim for 3:10)
25% chance of 3:10
75% chance of 3:25

Option B - conservative (aim for 3:16)
50% chance of 3:16
50% chance of 3:18

Is the risk of a potential 3:10 worth the chance that you completely miss the BQ by finishing in 3:25. Or is it more valuable to you to hit that bare minimum goal of a 3:15?

If it were me, I'd recommend the opposite strategy. Instead of aiming for 3:10, and then adjusting slower if you have to. I'd aim for 3:15 through say 16-17 miles or so. If you can pick up the pace at Mile 17, then you know you probably could have gone faster from the start. But then with your picked up pace, you'd still gain 11 second per mile after that which is nearly 2 min of time after 9-10 more miles. That would give you a 3:13ish finish. But if the reverse happens and you attempt to pick up the pace at Mile 17 and feel like you can't, then try and maintain. But be thankful in post-run review that if you had gone for 3:10 you would have likely blown up even worse than where-ever you finish.

But that's my mindset in terms of pacing decisions given where your data is and there's definitely other mindsets for approaching it.

Hmm, very interesting take. I will have to mull that over a bit. I might make that decision based on the weather. I do really want the 3:10 because I think had I taken this approach earlier I could be a sub 3:00 guy but a 3:15 likely assures me of a place while also getting me a marathon PR.

I had that 5 miler at a 6:22 pace based on the course length (Garmin 945 showed 4.90).

At this point in my training on a flat course I think I could pull off sub 1:30 and maybe sub 1:28. I'm not sure I have a 1:25 in me at the moment. On a good day it would be possible but a lot would have to line up.

I really do feel prepared for the 3:10, my only real worry is having to start in the 60s. I am going to set up a Pace Pro at 3:15 also and make it a decision based on the actual weather that morning.

I appreciate all the info, it is great.
 

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