Looking for Advice....

[mom2rtk]

I think you created this by never addressing the future & treating her like some fragile creature who couldn't function on her own. And unfortunately, now at 74, she may actually not be able to be independent much longer.

This is really it in a nutshell.

 

[NHdisneylover]

This arrangement was always intended to be permanent.
.

OK, so I will ONLY focus on your financial question. Your mother made a sizeable investment paying to have a "home" for herself built as an addition to your home. She has not saved for alternative living arrangements at some future point---most likely because as far as she was ever told and agreed to, the addition she paid for was her lifetime home. She cannot be faulted for your chagne of heart (valid though it may be) and should have been told IMMEDIATLEY as soon as you began to think you may not want her with you forever (even if it was still in discussion stages---especially while it was still a distant thing that was only in discussion stages actually) so that she could begin to save for that eventuality.
Given that she did inviest early on in the building (and paid her own utilities, etc) she deserves, IMO, at minimum the actual cost she put into that addition. Possibly quite a bit more depending on how much property has appreciated (especially given that she is going to be blindsided and might well have budgeted very differently over the past 19 years had she been aware she was not in a permanent situation). IMO that is the only moral way to handle this from the financial standpoint.

My opinion is that since you are changing the rules (terminating a living arrangement your mother assumed to be permanent that you never told her otherwise) and are not giving her time to save money, that yes, you owe her something financially.

this

 

[Hikergirl]

Ok granted my grandmother is older than the OP's mom but it's still a similar-enough situation. My grandmother didn't have a DL for years and years because she never needed to and hated the thought of driving. Her husband (my grandfather) was in the marines and they moved around (though not too too crazy like some other families did). My grandmother was pregnant 10 times and had 5 live births out of that (technically she had 3 live children before her early to mid-20s by her first husband who passed away due to a heart condition, she met my grandfather and before they were married she was pregnant with my mom). She was too busy raising the children to have a job especially as her eldest had a cognitive disorder (though high functioning) and it was well quite frankly a different time back then. She only got a DL when it was appearant that my grandfather just couldn't be the only driver.

Now I know this is a bit different of course since there's like a 10 or so current age difference between the OP's mom and my grandmother but still. She lives in a senior living community that costs a pretty penny but that was only because my grandfather set up it so she would have money when he passed.

Nowadays I would feel differently if a 54 year old woman has such dependency but 19 years ago? Ehh maybe it wouldn't be so foreign as it seems now.

I know 3 women who were around 50 when they lost their dh's and managed to figure out how to become independent and support themselves. That was between 18 and 20 years ago. I think some women just have a different mindset and feel they need to be taken care of and others do what they have too to take care of themselves.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I can agree that it is more common for a woman born in the 40s to not take on home repair or certain bills than it would be for one born in the 60s or later---but, yes, there are plenty of very independent women from all generations---my grandmother was born in the 30s and is about as self sufficient and independet as it comes.

But I really question how totally dependent OP's mother is. OP mentions the mother wintering elsewhere (so that is living a good chunk of the year on her own), paying her own utilities, etc. That does not sound like someone who is totally reliant on others. Maybe she has been as reliant on others as OP implies, but, again, other than not doing home repairs/maintance herself (I don't do those things either---we bought a small condo for a reason!) it doesn't seem overly so (again, based on the limited information which includes her wintering away and handling her ultilities)

Not that any of that has much to do with the financial question in the OP, but since it has become its own topic on the thread, I thought I'd chime in on it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I know 3 women who were around 50 when they lost their dh's and managed to figure out how to become independent and support themselves. That was between 18 and 20 years ago. I think some women just have a different mindset and feel they need to be taken care of and others do what they have too to take care of themselves.

I agree with that. I was simply giving my experience. Obviously not everyone is alike. Clearly my husband's grandmother who was older than my grandmother was different as she worked in the bombing factories. I, was just providing a reason for dependency (which is what the original poster who I quoted inquired about).

 

[mom2rtk]

I know the OP said Mom didn't help out that much with the kids, but I wonder if that suited her needs better to have another adult in the house when the kids were young (maybe for before and after school care?). If that's the case, then it might have contributed to keeping her dependent at the very time she need to (and would have been more able to) go out and get a job and a place of her own.

 

[Nancyg56]

I have to disagree that things were that different for women 19 years ago. That was 1998, not 1958 for heaven's sake!! Women in their 50's were just as capable at taking care of themselves 20 years ago as they are today. I recently turned 60 & have many relatives & friends in their late 60s, their 70s & 80s. In fact, I think I only know 1 woman younger than 80 that has never worked outside the home. I can't even imagine being 54 & needing to move in with my children after a spouse passed. I also know many such women who were widowed in their 50's or 60's & not 1 did anything like that. Everyone of them moved forward with their lives & maintained independence until their own health failed.

OP, I think you made a mistake taking her in back then. Possibly out of guilt, possibly to help with your kids or who knows why. But I think you created this by never addressing the future & treating her like some fragile creature who couldn't function on her own. And unfortunately, now at 74, she may actually not be able to be independent much longer. Disabling health issues can come up at any time at that age. Or they may never come. So you moved her in when she really didn't need to be there. And now when she really might start to need help for real, she has to be out on her own. Makes no sense to me.

IMHO, this is a family issue. You should now engage both your mom & siblings in creating a plan for her future. You are certainly entitled to move on with your life. But that doesn't really entitle you to throw your mom's life into chaos & dictate her future either.

I think that there are times when people make decisions tht benefit them and then when they are ready to make a change that also benefits they, they look to justify it by finding fault with the person whose life they may turn upside down. I have no idea what the personal dynamics are between the OP and her Mother, but I know enough about people to know that there is more to this than a cranky selfish woman whose personality is such that she is not able to even take part in a discussion that concerns her. For wahtever reason the OP led Mom to believe that a 19 year old arrangement was permanent, and now that has changed. I believe that when given a choice people should choose to do the least harm and to treat people the way they want to be treated. I cannot belive that the Mom is getting that treatment.

I know 3 women who were around 50 when they lost their dh's and managed to figure out how to become independent and support themselves. That was between 18 and 20 years ago. I think some women just have a different mindset and feel they need to be taken care of and others do what they have too to take care of themselves.

And some people try to "take care" of their parents if they can get something out of it. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would move a 54 year old parent who was disagreeable into their home with the intention that it would be permanent unless there was more to the story.

My Mom moved my uncle into our house when I was a kid. He was a crabby selfish old goat who was miserable. My Mom tried, she really did, but when that nasty old fart yelled because my sister and I were having a little birthday party that was it. SHe sat his sorry self down and made him understand there was going to be mutual respect or he would need to make alternate arrangement for his nasty old carcass. He chose to find his own place. I do nto understand why anyoen would out up with a cranky miserable person unless there was a benefit.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

To me the fact that the OP had to create an alternate identity for this post says a lot. On some level, she knows she has not just a financial, but a moral dilemma.

A mindset when you have small children to care for is a lot different than a mindset of when one's children are grown.

I think that at the time this decision was made, it was probably less about "caring for" DM than "How can we make this work for both DM and us? (Not that that is necessarily a bad thing! Families often do pull together when they have to.)

I agree that there has likely been much left out about how DM helped OP with her growing family over the years. I know for us, having my mother here when my children were small afforded DH and I to continue to work the hours we worked even after we had kids because my mother was a "buffer" here at home. (And many of these were nighttime hours when my children were sleeping, ftr, but still.) While I know many, many people - women especially - who have to give up work or radically alter their work schedules because there is no buffer there. This was not the case for the OP, but we haven't heard much about it. So the question I have is: how much were you and your DH able to work because your mother was there, and how much was that worth to you? Perhaps that should be taken into consideration as well, from a financial standpoint. Her being there allowed for more income to be earned as opposed to her not being there. Again, what was that worth? For us, had my mother not been here, our entire financial picture would've changed.

Given that, in some ways I'm getting the vibe here of something a SAHM would face if she had stayed home to raise a family only to be left high and dry later on when the working husband decided to move on. Aren't those contributions recognized today by courts and the public? I don't think this is much different, but because we just don't see it much, it's not well understood. So my best guess would be that this was a major issue in this family (as opposed to "caring for" the DM at 54 - more likely the other way around) but we are not hearing about it. And I base this not just on what's been said - and not said - here, but by the numerous friends I have who have similar situations. (Here it is relatively common due to high cost of housing and cost of living, and perhaps other factors as well.) In all cases the parent living with adult children has helped a good deal by being there with the kids while the adult children worked.

 

[mom2rtk]

To me the fact that the OP had to create an alternate identity for this post says a lot. On some level, she knows she has not just a financial, but a moral dilemma.

A mindset when you have small children to care for is a lot different than a mindset of when one's children are grown.

I think that at the time this decision was made, it was probably less about "caring for" DM than "How can we make this work for both DM and us? (Not that that is necessarily a bad thing! Families often do pull together when they have to.)

I agree that there has likely been much left out about how DM helped OP with her growing family over the years. I know for us, having my mother here when my children were small afforded DH and I to continue to work the hours we worked even after we had kids because my mother was a "buffer" here at home. (And many of these were nighttime hours when my children were sleeping, ftr, but still.) While I know many, many people - women especially - who have to give up work or radically alter their work schedules because there is no buffer there. This was not the case for the OP, but we haven't heard much about it. So the question I have is: how much were you and your DH able to work because your mother was there, and how much was that worth to you? Perhaps that should be taken into consideration as well, from a financial standpoint. Her being there allowed for more income to be earned as opposed to her not being there. Again, what was that worth? For us, had my mother not been here, our entire financial picture would've changed.

Given that, in some ways I'm getting the vibe here of something a SAHM would face if she had stayed home to raise a family only to be left high and dry later on when the working husband decided to move on. Aren't those contributions recognized today by courts and the public? I don't think this is much different, but because we just don't see it much, it's not well understood. So my best guess would be that this was a major issue in this family (as opposed to "caring for" the DM at 54 - more likely the other way around) but we are not hearing about it. And I base this not just on what's been said - and not said - here, but by the numerous friends I have who have similar situations. (Here it is relatively common due to high cost of housing and cost of living, and perhaps other factors as well.) In all cases the parent living with adult children has helped a good deal by being there with the kids while the adult children worked.

I've been wondering the same thing about the situation. That's coming from someone who had no buffer, no help with the kids, nobody to lean on when push came to shove or when one of the kids was sick and I had a "do not miss" meeting. And it's the very reason we had to make adjustments to our work choices with very real financial ramifications.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I've been wondering the same thing about the situation. That's coming from someone who had no buffer, no help with the kids, nobody to lean on when push came to shove or when one of the kids was sick and I had a "do not miss" meeting. And it's the very reason I had to make adjustments to our work choices with very real financial ramifications.

Exactly.

 

[Pooh2]

The mom made a mistake not having a legal document written up 19 years ago to protect her investment. She apparently thought it was family so she would be all set.
The real estate market has gone up drastically in 19 years, give her her investment back with interest.

 

[moon]

The OP says her children were 4 and 7 when DM moved into her apartment in their property. She also says that she and her husband had "hectic work schedules", so she obviously needed a buffer; otherwise I don't know how they could have managed. Was it DM the one who helped or did they have hired help? If it was DM, sounds like she would have been helping more than "occasionally'

 

[appleplie]

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

 

[mjkacmom]

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

Hmm, my mom passed away, and my dad has Alzheimer's. He, too, focuses on these things, will call me up and make me come down to change a lightbulb when his caretaker is not there (and watch me do it up close). I finally had to change his mailing address because he called me Daily, telling me to come down so we could go through it. If he's down to 3 bars of soap, I have to take him to the store that day. Took him for a haircut today, every 2 minutes he asked the receptionist if she was going to open the mail on the desk. Being at his house is painful, we all just get ordered around (plus the lack of memory, so it's groundhogs day every 3 minutes). It's hard enough on our marriage living one mile away, in small frequent doses. When my sister comes in, twice a year, she is pulling her hair out the first hour (only stays 2 days). I'd NEVER live with him, I'd lose my mind! Next stop is assisted living, but I'm holding off as long as possible, to keep him in his own home.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

In my opinion you are describing the typical senior at that age. Little things become bigger and more worrisome problems. My father is like that even though he is mostly self sufficient. He and his wife panic over small details. I think it's age related and requires patience from family members. Trust me, my father has a list of "urgent" things to do for all his kids who are visiting. People digress as they age.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

Just wondering, as that info wasn't there, was there an attempt to show her how to:
~pump her own gas (my stepmom for example knew how to pump her own gas she just preferred not to)
~change a lightbulb
~set a time on a clock
~or any of the various other items of minutia

Or were these things she just refused to do/learn no way no how type thing? Was there a talk about helping out around the house such as simple basic household cleaning and taking out the garbage?

IDK seems interesting that you say one of the reasons you moved her in was you never expected her to do home maintenance and repairs (though I wouldn't say setting a clock is necessarily maintenence) but the next breath give us examples of things she doesn't know how to do..that sorta (at least to me so I could be wrong) comes off like you are giving reasons to blame her for something you didn't expect her to do/be accountable for to begin with.

ETA: And I do agree with other posters on the age thing. It wasn't clear did these issues with changing the lightbulb,not knowing how to pump gas, and all the other things suddenly pop up in the last few years or so or were some of these things always an issue (like pumping gas, changing lightbulb) from the beginning when she moved in with you guys?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

Yup. This is my life, as well. Very, very common in the elderly. (And surely their are ways to compromise on this, too.)

Look, as I said earlier, you have the right to do what you want to do. I think you should get legal and/or financial guidance so things can be resolved as best as they can be. And you HAVE to make your mother part of this decision. I do fear a bit for your relationship with your DM and the rest of your family, as I feel they're going to see your Mom as a victim, especially if your DH keeps his hard-nosed attitude about "not giving her anything", so it behooves you to get it right if you do decide to do it. FWIW I hear how difficult this is. As I said, I live it, too, and have been at it for even longer. I have seen some of my friends' relationships with their parents break apart in similar situations and it's heart-wrenching. Things can get so bad that health can be negatively affected, and that's not good for anyone. If I were you I would give it some time, and maybe try to think outside the box a bit. As in, is there another way this could be worked out, while sparing your own sanity? Since the inception of this thread I've had a nagging worry that, years from now, you could once again feel you made a mistake by acting hastily now. Being devil's advocate, would you ever regret not having her there if, say, (God forbid) something were to happen to your husband? Or what if, say, you were to become injured and disabled? I'd bet your mother would be the one taking care of you should that happen. I know that when I was going through cancer treatment, I saw another side of my mother. The loving, caring side. And I was so glad she was there. Just food for thought. Because life has a funny way of taking some twists and turns. I do wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.

 

[ronandannette]

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

Getting a clearer picture of how that would get "old" after a while but this is a sincere question - why didn't somebody just TEACH her those easy, mundane things? I simply can't imagine her "refusing" to set her alarm clock and if she did, why not do what you'd do with your teenagers - her sleeping late and missing out on something would have been a motivator. FWIW, it's not as if she's incapable of learning life skills even now. Part of what (IMO) you "owe" her now is to help with the transition. That will include coaching her on things like gassing-up. The sooner you get started, the better. I wish you all well.

 

[appleplie]

We have taught her how to put gas in the car but she doesn't feel comfortable maneuvering the car around the gas station. We've also tried to show her how set the time on a clock, how to change a light bulb, how to use the DVD player-I could go on and on. I don't know if she's just not interested or what, but I've already mentioned that's she's manipulative and will stalk, nag and pout until you do what she wants. I could write a book. I didn't include all of this initially because that was not what my original post was about. I never took her in to gain anything from her. She had always been like this and I think my father just coddled her and did what she wanted to keep the peace and the cycle has just continued. She's not evil-I honestly don't think she even realizes it. I am just as much at fault in enabling her. We've created a monster. My siblings keep their distance and show up a few times a year and she thinks they're the best because they don't show any frustration with her.

 

[because]

I probably used the wrong terminology to say she lived for "free". What I was trying to say is that she had the benefit of home ownership without the responsibilities. She paid for the addition of her living space. She has not paid taxes, insurance and maintenance. This has allowed her to winter elsewhere and live a very comfortable, if not lavish, lifestyle. .

Just to correct some assumptions...my mom worked when she moved in with us. My dad drove her to work and back everyday and I assumed that task when she moved in. She has never driven on a highway. She retired at 62-so my children were a little older by then and not really in need of a babysitter-this is not to say she never helped out. My husband runs a business out if our home-so we've never really had childcare issues. She is not disabled and I never insinuated that I had to spoon feed her or anything. She has a car and a drivers license. She does not know how to put gas in the car and that is taken care of by one of us. I have never expected her to do home maintenance-that's one of the reasons we had her move in_so that she wouldn't worry about home repairs. She has someone clean for her. Her garbage is taken out daily. She cannot set the time on a clock and she cannot change a light bulb-among many other things. This is the minutia that she focuses on when alone all day and these are the dependencies I speak of. These things are huge in her mind and must be dealt with immediately when I return from work. I avoid her at times because she always has an assignment for me that must be completed immediately and this is why this situation cannot continue if there is a viable way to resolve it. I don't have to convince anyone else of the this is as this is what I live every day.

I am having a hard time reconciling the two mothers you describe.

In one post, you describe her as an independent woman who winters elsewhere, living a lavish lifestyle. It also sounds like she lives somewhat independently, even if it is in your house, as you mention she has a cleaning lady and someone who takes out her trash. She pays all her own bills except for the real estate taxes and homeowner insurance.

In other posts, you describe her as someone who is so helpless she can't even set the time on a clock.

How in the world does such a helpless woman manage to winter elsewhere without your help, living a lavish lifestyle?

Of course she did not save for a future of being kicked out. She paid for her apartment in full and additionally was generous enough to give her daughter some extra living space with the understanding that the living arrangement was permanent.

This dream house. Can you not afford it if you have to give your mother her investment back?