Things not going well with the DDP changes

[tloft]

Yes, I realize menu prices have increased dramatically over that same period, but the tip percentage hasn't.

I agree with everything you said but just wanted to point out that menu prices haven't risen as dramatically as people think. An original McDonalds cheeseburger in 1955 cost 19 cents. Simply adjusted for inflation this same burger should cost $1.47. However, McDonalds currently features a DOUBLE cheeseburger on thier value menu for $1 - 32% below the inflation adjusted price for the single burger price. Now. before someone starts in, I'm not crying poor McDonalds - they obviously are one of the world's most successful businesses and know how to manager their costs - but the net result to the consumer is far more buying power in their restaurants in 2008 than in 1955. Because of their captive audience Disney is better able to keep pace with inflation in their restaurants which only heightens their disparity with outside restaurants.

 

[creativeamanda]

The point I was trying to make, which I did not and I'll take complete resposibility for that, was that I do not like being told how much I have to tip. I do not think WDW should go to a baseline tip of 18%, especially if the service was subpar. (This was an idea that Disney may do becasue of the ddp changes) I am not saying that I'm comparing a teacher's salary to a server's salary, just that we should not tip a person to the point that their hourly wages are more than or close to the pay of many of our community workers who spend 7-8 hours daily influencing children. I agree that the hourly wage of a server is terrible. I agree that they should be making more, but all people should receive merit pay of some sort. For servers, this should be a meal to meal type thing. I know there are cheap people out there who will insist on a 10% tip. In that case, they should just stay home and cook. But don't ask me to tip 18% at the local Ryans, where my glass will remain empty 1/2 of my meal just because I have a party of 8 or more. I will determine an appropriate tip in that case. There will be a tip, and it will be at least 15%, but don't tell me it has to be 18%. And don't make me pay 18% tip or have to take time out of my life to argue my tip down to the level I need it to be because gratuity is automatically included and my service was subpar. Leave a short survey on my table and I'll complete it if you must get information about the service I've received.

 

[tloft]

The point I was trying to make, which I did not and I'll take complete resposibility for that, was that I do not like being told how much I have to tip. I do not think WDW should go to a baseline tip of 18%, especially if the service was subpar. (This was an idea that Disney may do becasue of the ddp changes) I am not saying that I'm comparing a teacher's salary to a server's salary, just that we should not tip a person to the point that their hourly wages are more than or close to the pay of many of our community workers who spend 7-8 hours daily influencing children. I agree that the hourly wage of a server is terrible. I agree that they should be making more, but all people should receive merit pay of some sort. For servers, this should be a meal to meal type thing. I know there are cheap people out there who will insist on a 10% tip. In that case, they should just stay home and cook. But don't ask me to tip 18% at the local Ryans, where my glass will remain empty 1/2 of my meal just because I have a party of 8 or more. I will determine an appropriate tip in that case. There will be a tip, and it will be at least 15%, but don't tell me it has to be 18%. And don't make me pay 18% tip or have to take time out of my life to argue my tip down to the level I need it to be because gratuity is automatically included and my service was subpar. Leave a short survey on my table and I'll complete it if you must get information about the service I've received.

Believe it or not, I do not disagree with a single thing you have to say. The problem is, and the same Cornell professor that was linked to earlier did the research, is that it has been proven that the more people at the table, the lower the tip. While you may be responsible and tip 15% if warranted, statistically this is not what is happening in the real world. His research found that the tip percentage drops .7% per person at the table from a mean of 17.5% for single diners. The average table of six was tipping 13.3%, tables of eight 11.9%, etc... Have we not all been the last one to receive the check and cash as it has made its way around the table and everyone supposedly covered their food and tip yet there isn't even enough to cover everyones elses food - so your stuck covering part of the check and all of the tip - unless you start interogating everyone? I understand your aggravation, but this is why restaurants have made this move. If you run a restaurant and constantly make servers wait large parties for a 10 - 12% tip they will leave for greener pastures. To keep good help it becomes imperative that you but protections like auto-grats into place. For the record, I do not use them in my restaurant - but I have refused service to people that have stiffed our servers in the past.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I agree with everything you said but just wanted to point out that menu prices haven't risen as dramatically as people think.

Thank you. I didn't even think of that. Yesterday (pre-computer-fussiness), I found a 1962 menu - because I was looking for support for the information for that 1962 "LitB" episode - for one of a chain of Jack Tar restaurants. A 16 ounce T-bone was $5.95. I never even thought of inflation.

That steak would cost just over $41 today, yet the customary tip percentage has gone up between nothing and five percent in all that time. Yes, I do realize 15% of $41 is much more than 15% of $5.95 - but the cost of everything (for the server as well as for the rest of us) has gone up the same 590.91% as the steak.

 

[SlightlyGoofy]

I worked at a McD's in 1966 and well remember that the price of a regular burger was $.15 and the fries and drink were the same price. I earned $1.25 an hour back then at my day job but do not remember my pay at McD. I have worked waitress jobs where I earned $.50 an hour.

I prefer to tip bigger at cheaper places where the waitstaff is not usually making as much money and often has to do more work (I often had to prepare some of the meals as well as do everything else and if someone left without paying while I was occupied the money came out of my check).

I have a real problem with a waiter getting paid more, sometimes many times more, than I do. I have fun doing the math at some of the WDW restaurants, counting how many tables they have, how many hours they work a week, average amount of people per table and taking into account slow periods and such.

That being said, I have the choice and so I tend to eat at counter serve places and avoid all the 'stuff'. No stress, eat when I want to, can mostly get nearly the same things as in the sit down restaurants, and save money.

However, if I do really want to eat at a TS restaurant I do so knowing that a certain tip is expected and if it is deserved I give it, with a smile.

I can attest to the fact that large parties often leave less of a tip as groups feel more invisible and can think someone else is leaving a tip AND the bigger the mess the lower the tip. Just the facts of life as I saw them.

Slightly Goofy

 

[angelmav]

Using only a limited number of examples is a poor way to explain away inflation keeping servers tips at the same level. Not everything rises at the same rate and some things (like what passes for beef at McD's) has gone through several evolutions to make the process of making the product cheaper and more effecient over the years. I have no problems with what a server makes (though the buffet deal sticks in my craw a bit but I digress). The only aspect of this that bothers me is the servers and their friends that come on and cry poverty. IMO, Disney servers are compensated very well for their field. Good for them, as long as its appreciated.

 

[tloft]

Using only a limited number of examples is a poor way to explain away inflation keeping servers tips at the same level. Not everything rises at the same rate and some things (like what passes for beef at McD's) has gone through several evolutions to make the process of making the product cheaper and more effecient over the years. I have no problems with what a server makes (though the buffet deal sticks in my craw a bit but I digress). The only aspect of this that bothers me is the servers and their friends that come on and cry poverty. IMO, Disney servers are compensated very well for their field. Good for them, as long as its appreciated.

Can you please link to one example of a CM coming on here and "crying poverty". I would be amazed if you can find anyone who has had anything to say except defending themselves on these forums.

 

[MrTerrorChair]

We are leaving this week and we have a DDP. I have a question about the new bill you recieve after dining. Do they calculate the amount you SHOULD leave as a tip and put it on the bill or do they leave it up to me to figure out? I have no problem figuring out the tip. The problem is that they don't put the actual dollar amount for the meal on the slip (at least they didn't in before the change in the plan, the slip would say $0). It's kind of hard to figure out the tip if you don't know how much the meal actually cost.

Anyone who has experienced the new system and has insights into this would be very helpful.

TTFN

Mr. TerrorChair

 

[robinb]

Yes, the put a "suggested amount" of 18% and 20% on the bottom of your bill.

 

[angelmav]

Can you please link to one example of a CM coming on here and "crying poverty". I would be amazed if you can find anyone who has had anything to say except defending themselves on these forums.

Look at any number of closed threads if you dont believe me. I am not trying to bash CM's TLOFT, but there have been more than a few that have come on with the intention of getting others to feel bad for what they make. I certainly dont feel like opening that can of worms on this thread and I dont really care what a server makes, but having weighed in on a few of those discussions, its happened more than you would think.
Like I said, I could care less, just dont try and give the impression that a Disney server is not rewarded for what they do above and beyond most in their field.
How that pertains to this particular discussion is the fact that those servers are seeing a dramatic decline in what had become the expected norm under the old plan and the consequence that will have going forward.

 

[zackspal]

New Plan versus old. Old plan wins hands down. New plan is still a good deal. $8 - $10 for Breakfeats, $7 - $10 for lunch, average $22 for dinner entree plus $7 for dessert. works out to $42 per person per day on the low side. Stop crabbing and pay the $38 dollars

 

[EnnEss]

I'm curious, how were the servers tipped under the old plan? What about at signature restaurants that cost someone 2 TS credits?

A side note to everyone else, I'm a server, not at Disney, and the amount of people who say they tip well on here is not proportional of the population at large. Keep that in mind when you hear servers say whatever and you personally disbelieve them.

I'm in a nice restaurant, probably a step above the level of family or two steps maybe, but not fine extremely expensive. About 50 for a couple to eat there, more with alcohol. OK, the avg break down I'd say is 10 percent tip nothing, for no reason usually (If I give bad service I really don't care if you don't tip, I might not like you, you may not like me, this is rare), just not nice people (If you can't tip someone who does decently, don't go out, sorry, in Japan, Australia etc., I know you CANT tip if you want to, so maybe all the non tippers should go there). The vast majority tip around 10 percent, I mean 70 percent plus. Maybe 5 percent or less tips 20 percent and above. About 15 percent tip 15 percent, which I think to be a great tip.

I would be willing to bet this is worse at WDW where a lot of people are not familiar with American tradition regarding tips (Try to explain this to someone in Japan, they will stare blankly at you, also try explaining the extremely low wage servers make here).

I'm just really curious what the tip situation was under the old plan, it must have been awful if the servers / union wanted it gone. And finally, servers in Florida, 18 percent is a ridiculous number to expect. Round that somewhere. Used to be 10 way back, then 15. If you want to jump it up, go for broke and say 20 .

 

[EnnEss]

This is one reason my feathers get ruffled when I hear that Dis servers should get at least 18% (plus the 3% from Disney)" because they have such a hard job". Many of them make as much or more than nurses, school teachers, policemen, firemen, etc. Waiting tables may be a hard job, but pales in comparison to others. I just get tired of the whining.

This is just absolutely wrong. If this was the case there would not be vacancies for these jobs all the time (servers), everyone would do them. And it's not a hard job serving really either, rather stressless once you're off.

 

[TLSnell1981]

This is just absolutely wrong. If this was the case there would not be vacancies for these jobs all the time (servers), everyone would do them. And it's not a hard job serving really either, rather stressless once you're off.

I'd like you to clarify what part of my post is absolutely wrong. There have been more than a few Disney servers that state they make good tips. There are others that almost demand they should get at least 18% just because they showed up for work. The numbers that have been offered up on this board....by Dis servers.....show they do make salaries in line with the professions I referenced. I don't think Disney has any problem whatsoever filling positions of disgruntled servers.

 

[tloft]

.....show they do make salaries in line with the professions I referenced.

As long as low job stability and no benefits with the same salary are equitable then yes you are absolutely correct.

 

[TLSnell1981]

As long as low job stability and no benefits with the same salary are equitable then yes you are absolutely correct.

I think we also established servers work less hours for the the same or more money also.

 

[tloft]

Look at any number of closed threads if you dont believe me. I am not trying to bash CM's TLOFT, but there have been more than a few that have come on with the intention of getting others to feel bad for what they make. I certainly dont feel like opening that can of worms on this thread and I dont really care what a server makes, but having weighed in on a few of those discussions, its happened more than you would think.
Like I said, I could care less, just dont try and give the impression that a Disney server is not rewarded for what they do above and beyond most in their field.
How that pertains to this particular discussion is the fact that those servers are seeing a dramatic decline in what had become the expected norm under the old plan and the consequence that will have going forward.

You made a statement and are unwilling to back it up. You and I have been chasing several of the same threads and I have never seen anyone identify themselves as a CM initiate a thread to complain about anything. Almost exclusively these threads are started with "i don't think waiters should make x because so and so only makes y" of "why don't they build the price into the menu", "i shouldn't have to pay for bad service" or "service is terrible these days its all DDP's fault." The only comments that could remotely fall into your description are in response to allegations/accusations made by others. I've been using this site for almost three years researching trips and have never stumbled upon a thread initiated by a server complaining about work place conditions. You and several others have developed what appears to be a vendetta towards the restaurant staff; which, if in your case is based on CMs "crying poverty" then it is on false pretenses. I have seen CMs plead their case when people allege that they earn $50+/hour, offer terrible service, and were the driving factor behind eliminating the tip from the DDP - and if trying to set the record straight equals whining and crying in your book then so be it (in one thread, potentially this one, when someone alleged that servers pushed for the changes in the DDP, and a servers posted that they were against those changes, they were lambasted for not being a part of a better union and told it was still their fault.)

Obviously "i can care less" isn't true or you wouldn't feel compelled to comment any time this discussion comes up.

I never gave, implied, or inferred that Disney servers aren't well compensated.
My only question is why do you and others begrudge it so strongly. Do WDW servers have a lifestyle and income that you wish you had?

The thread was actually started as a discussion of how the changes were negatively impacting guests - specifically about a Jim Hill article that makes no mention of either the impact on servers or their reaction to the change in plans.

 

[tloft]

I think we also established servers work less hours for the the same or more money also.

I think we also established that teachers only work 180 - 190 days a year - I guess you are advocating that their pay is too high also?

 

[tloft]

A side note to everyone else, I'm a server, not at Disney, and the amount of people who say they tip well on here is not proportional of the population at large. Keep that in mind when you hear servers say whatever and you personally disbelieve them.

If your experience is anything like mine - anyone who says something along the lines of "i tip well but only for good service" is in fact a terrible tipper who nearly always finds a way to find the service less than satisfactory.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I think we also established that teachers only work 180 - 190 days a year - I guess you are advocating that their pay is too high also?

I guess that makes school teachers pay on par with part-time servers at WDW. Do you have a vendetta against school teachers? If servers don't get enough hours they can certainly take on another job. I know some of the professions I mentioned do just that.