Yet Another 5th Gate Thread

[ColoradoDreamin]

So I was just thinking about this 5th gate idea. Let me first say I am one that doesn't expect a 5th gate anytime soon. I agree with the logic of money talks. What would a 5th gate do to get guest to stay longer. Or would a 5th gate just spread the crowd out more, and with the cost of developing and opening a 5th gate it would not be a financially wise decision to make.

But I was thinking about one idea, which I am sure would have a thousand holes, but still want to throw it out there. I love Disney, and personally have a hard time justifying a trip to Universal on my trips to Florida. I keep saying I will, and I am sure I will someday, but Disney is just too much of a draw. But I am not oblivious to the fact that Universal does have a draw to a crowd that for the most part Disney doesn't lock into. So what if that 5th gate targeted that audience. Maybe one could pull in more, without just reducing the attendance of the other parks.

So what audience (for the most part) is Universal getting that Disney is not winning - I would venture to guess it is the thrill seeker. The roller coasters, the teenagers and young adults. So what if a 5th gate targeted that group. I know it goes against what Disney typically does..the roller coaster theme park...but everybody will change especially when it comes to money. Still a lot of hurdles.

Going farther, what they could do is start small...in an area where they could see this 5th gate, build one large ride (like a coaster) must like the rumors of that large coaster going next to Universal (in competition with Universal no less). Obviously this would need to be really thought out...cause you still need parking and transportation (seeing the issues already) but if thought out well enough maybe one could build the park around it...as enough success comes from that one coaster (so it would have to be a pay to ride type thing). That would be a lot of planning...

I see it impossible to build an entire park on this idea from day 1, and probably impossible to even do it one piece at a time...but what do I know about planning a park.

I used to think about what a "new" Disney park would be. There would still need to be Imagineering on how this new park is "Disney". But there is so many creative people out there, I am sure there is a way to show how a movie ties into the park of thrill rides. I always thought about something like rides tied to natural weather events (learning how weather patterns like hurricanes and tornadoes and snow storms create). Disney buys the rights to Wizard of Oz and there's your tornado ride. Ok...I need to stop now cause I am really going out into leftfield...

 

[Budshark]

Two reasons the roller coaster park never happens.

1) market. The market you describe is not a lucrative one. Teenagers and thrill seekers are not your stay all day, spend money types typically. Not a market Disney is after.
2) competition. What competition would a roller coaster park have? Tons. Six flags. Cedar Point. Busch Gardens. All at lower cost and equal rides. All Disney could do is theme better - which matters not to that market.

So you're back to - would a 5th gate keep people onsite for day 6, 7, or 8? Unlikely. And a final test: is Universal who could have gone thrill ride going more thrill or more Disney with their park? More Disney. A good indicator that the roller coaster market isn't where the money is.

 

[Eoghann]

Yeah the world is full of coaster parks and they have their audience but it's very different to Disney's audience. And theming is a problem with coasters. Mostly either the theming is limited or the coaster has to be limited. Plus you have the fact that Disney's core IP doesn't really fit that teenage audience you're talking about it. It's all a bit too safe.

There is a reason why there are so few coasters in Disney Parks and why those that do exist are on the very tame end of things. It's the same reason I think that none of Universal's big new attractions have been coasters. Extreme thrill rides is an exclusionary category.

 

[DanBoris]

So I was just thinking about this 5th gate idea. Let me first say I am one that doesn't expect a 5th gate anytime soon. I agree with the logic of money talks. What would a 5th gate do to get guest to stay longer. Or would a 5th gate just spread the crowd out more, and with the cost of developing and opening a 5th gate it would not be a financially wise decision to make.

But I was thinking about one idea, which I am sure would have a thousand holes, but still want to throw it out there. I love Disney, and personally have a hard time justifying a trip to Universal on my trips to Florida. I keep saying I will, and I am sure I will someday, but Disney is just too much of a draw. But I am not oblivious to the fact that Universal does have a draw to a crowd that for the most part Disney doesn't lock into. So what if that 5th gate targeted that audience. Maybe one could pull in more, without just reducing the attendance of the other parks.

So what audience (for the most part) is Universal getting that Disney is not winning - I would venture to guess it is the thrill seeker. The roller coasters, the teenagers and young adults. So what if a 5th gate targeted that group. I know it goes against what Disney typically does..the roller coaster theme park...but everybody will change especially when it comes to money. Still a lot of hurdles.

Going farther, what they could do is start small...in an area where they could see this 5th gate, build one large ride (like a coaster) must like the rumors of that large coaster going next to Universal (in competition with Universal no less). Obviously this would need to be really thought out...cause you still need parking and transportation (seeing the issues already) but if thought out well enough maybe one could build the park around it...as enough success comes from that one coaster (so it would have to be a pay to ride type thing). That would be a lot of planning...

I see it impossible to build an entire park on this idea from day 1, and probably impossible to even do it one piece at a time...but what do I know about planning a park.

I used to think about what a "new" Disney park would be. There would still need to be Imagineering on how this new park is "Disney". But there is so many creative people out there, I am sure there is a way to show how a movie ties into the park of thrill rides. I always thought about something like rides tied to natural weather events (learning how weather patterns like hurricanes and tornadoes and snow storms create). Disney buys the rights to Wizard of Oz and there's your tornado ride. Ok...I need to stop now cause I am really going out into leftfield...

Universal really isn't a coaster park. Uni only has 3 or 4 (depending on how you count Dragon Challenge) high intensity coasters. So Disney building a coaster park wouldn't really be in completion with Uni, but instead would be competing with the region parks like Six Flags, Cedar Point etc, and this trying to compete with a very different type of market. Also, if you want to compete with these parks for the thrill audience you are going to need to add a new more thrilling coaster every other year at least.

 

[sachilles]

I don't think a 5th gate will happen anytime soon, unless it's a do-over and 1 of the 4 is getting torn down. I think I'd rather see them put some of the more vomit inducing rides in the Disney springs area, and charge per ride tickets, Similar to the old days when you'd buy a ticket pack. Something to keep the tweens busy, while mom and dad have a decent meal and beverage and little bro/sis get lost in the lego store. One coaster with a view of everything, one simulator ride like star tours, maybe a bungie or parachute drop and some sort of extreme spinner. No extreme theme, maybe just a step above dinoland.

 

[Spacedog1975]

Universal really isn't a coaster park. Uni only has 3 or 4 (depending on how you count Dragon Challenge) high intensity coasters. So Disney building a coaster park wouldn't really be in completion with Uni, but instead would be competing with the region parks like Six Flags, Cedar Point etc, and this trying to compete with a very different type of market. Also, if you want to compete with these parks for the thrill audience you are going to need to add a new more thrilling coaster every other year at least.

Sort of, but not exactly.

While I think it is highly unlikely that Disney will seek to enter this sphere at all, Disney has the benefit of the other 4 parks to mitigate the necessity to build a bigger and badder coaster every couple of years. It certainly couldn't stagnate, but it would probably do just fine with the same deployment timelines as the existing parks.

All that said - not going to happen.

 

[peg110]

I think a better strategy might be to "Expand" the current parks . I do realize there are some constraints as far as location of things but it's not like they don't have the real estate to do it. Just looking at MK from Google Maps, there does seem to be a lot of area that they could expand on the fringes of the park. Epcot could be a bit more of a challenge to expand but they could expand it more into the parking lot (and relocate the parking).

Not that expect any of this to happen, I just think if there was expansion that it would be better to expand the existing parks in stead of going for a fifth one.

 

[LeeAndRobin]

I remember the first time I went to WDW in 1975 at 10 yo. I had been used to riding the coasters at Carowinds (which at the time were still very tame by today's standards). I headed straight for Space Mountain. After the ride was over, my first thought was "you're kidding, that's it???????" It RUINED Disney for me for almost *40* years. The only time I went back between then and 2013 was a band trip in early 1983, just after Epcot opened. I didn't do much at MK, but loved Epcot for all the FW and WS stuff. My point here is that there do exist younger people who love the thrill rides. The market exists. And those of us that were in that market when we were 10 or so were VERY disappointed by the offerings at WDW. It's gotten a bit better with RRC and EE, but only just.

 

[DDLand]

Animal Kingdom was supposed to be that park. It was a two in one Busch Gardens Tampa/Thrill Seeker Park.

Problem was it didn't open with many attractions.

The roster would've included:

1) Dinosaur
2) Tiger River Run (Think Kali, only much bigger, extra thrills, and with more show scenes including animals... Though I have seen it was to have had a different ride system)
3) The Excavator
4) Beastly Kingdom E Ticket Dragon Coaster thing
5) Kilimanjaro Safaris (dispute with me you may, but it is thrilling especially before they removed the old show scenes)
6) Everest wasn't in the original marketing, but I imagine that it was in the works. The spot was too perfect to happen by accident

By 2016 we currently are missing 2 1/2 thrill attractions from the roster that was planned. One was replaced by PW... Fail. We're finally getting Avatar which will bring up thrill rides, but still DAK has serious potential to be a much more thrilling place. Dusting off the plans for the Excavator and Tiger River Run would be two excellent ways to enhance the park.

That would be my preference.

We do know two more thrilling attractions are in the works for DHS. Both SW Land attractions will be intense. Further discussion of Door Coasters or RSRs have been kicked around. That will join the Toy Story Lineup and RnR and ToT. Some of the best Roller Coasters at WDW.

What has made WDW and DL so beloved is because they aren't exclusive to age groups. Anyone can go and love the parks. Parks that aren't that way suffer.

 

[Eoghann]

We do know two more thrilling attractions are in the works for DHS. Both SW Land attractions will be intense. Further discussion of Door Coasters or RSRs have been kicked around. That will join the Toy Story Lineup and RnR and ToT. Some of the best Roller Coasters at WDW.

A lot of this hinges on how one defines thrill ride I suppose. But what has lead you to be so certain that the two Star Wars rides will be intense?

 

[DDLand]

A lot of this hinges on how one defines thrill ride I suppose. But what has lead you to be so certain that the two Star Wars rides will be intense?

Not unlike one of Universal's Simulators or the likes of Indiana Jones/Dinosaur it should be intense in a different standard with jerky movements and in your face effects.

If your definition of intense is:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/17/travel/17Coasters.html?_r=1

Then it likely won't be intense...

 

[Doug M]

If a 5th gate happens it would include Marvel stuff in decades after Disney is allowed to use it in parks, maybe a heros and villans type of park. Could also include all their non marvel lineup of course. I dont see a need to make a 5th gate yet. Still tons of room to expand AK, could move EPCOT into parking and the ball would be in the middle and not the front, and HS getting expanded now plus could do more later as well. MK could eat up some backstage areas and expand, and Tomorrowland could be nearly totally overhauled.

 

[Eoghann]

Not unlike one of Universal's Simulators or the likes of Indiana Jones/Dinosaur it should be intense in a different standard with jerky movements and in your face effects.

If your definition of intense is:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/17/travel/17Coasters.html?_r=1

Then it likely won't be intense...

Well I don't do coasters at all (actually I did 7 Dwarfs once and found it a little much for my stomach) but I wouldn't really call most of Universal's simulators intense and certainly not Dinosaur. To my tastes they are considerably less intense than say Test Track. Fun, though, since intensity isn't really a good measure of enjoyment as a whole.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If a 5th gate happens it would include Marvel stuff in decades after Disney is allowed to use it in parks, maybe a heros and villans type of park. Could also include all their non marvel lineup of course. I dont see a need to make a 5th gate yet. Still tons of room to expand AK, could move EPCOT into parking and the ball would be in the middle and not the front, and HS getting expanded now plus could do more later as well. MK could eat up some backstage areas and expand, and Tomorrowland could be nearly totally overhauled.

Theres's no guarantee that marvel will be this popular forever. They are at their "height" right now. But could go back to more of an age specific/cult following soon enough.

that's not the types that drop $10,000 for a week at character breakfasts once a year…and that is the target.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well I don't do coasters at all (actually I did 7 Dwarfs once and found it a little much for my stomach) but I wouldn't really call most of Universal's simulators intense and certainly not Dinosaur. To my tastes they are considerably less intense than say Test Track. Fun, though, since intensity isn't really a good measure of enjoyment as a whole.

if you found mine train intense…i worry about you're blood pressure.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

avatar isn't gonna be "thrill" rides…i hate to break it to you.

It's gonna be a river cruise and what looks like a more modern "soarin"….which is not a thrill ride.

Don't belive me? Ride it (soarin) and listen the responses of you're fellow passengers….i've done it many times. if there are any - its what i would describe as "cooing"…not gasps and shrieks.

That's how you gauge the ride. Not by the standby line or the PR ( i think they said it was "new" for about 8 years).

 

[Eoghann]

if you found mine train intense…i worry about you're blood pressure.

I worry about my blood pressure, but that's an entirely separate medical issue...

I don't do coasters. I suffer from vertigo due to some sort of inner ear imbalance and will get dizzy even climbing on a step ladder, that sort of stuff is simply unpleasant to me.

However I maintain that intensity and thrills have never been the primary draw for Disney. Or is someone going to try and argue that Pirates and Haunted Mansion are thrill rides?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I worry about my blood pressure, but that's an entirely separate medical issue...

I don't do coasters. I suffer from vertigo due to some sort of inner ear imbalance and will get dizzy even climbing on a step ladder, that sort of stuff is simply unpleasant to me.

However I maintain that intensity and thrills have never been the primary draw for Disney. Or is someone going to try and argue that Pirates and Haunted Mansion are thrill rides?

No I hear yeah...

I do feel bad for you though...as some of the rides - tower and splash in particular - are some of the greatest rides ever constructed.

Mine train is not. It's "ok"...just like soarin and midway mania. The bar is just lower now.

 

[dogdangling]

Theming big coasters is difficult, look at six flags, they have IP's running on rides which are pretty much the entrance board and a few other splattering here and there, not disney like at all.

I think they could go for a good family coaster in Animal kingdom like the Cheetah hunt at Busch, would fit pretty nice in the park, not that intense. I cannot see Disney ever putting in a megacoaster.

I would love to see them put in a powered coaster like this one at Europa Park but Disney themed.

 

[Eoghann]

No I hear yeah...

I do feel bad for you though...as some of the rides - tower and splash in particular - are some of the greatest rides ever constructed.

Mine train is not. It's "ok"...just like soarin and midway mania. The bar is just lower now.

I may do Splash one day. I think I'd rather like all the animatronic scenes. The problem is that final drop. Tower on the other hand just holds no appeal to me at all. You might as well be describing a ride in which I am systematically stretched on a rack but arguing it's great because of how technically sophisticate the rack is and look at the wonderful dark ages theming!

I'd agree Mine Train is not on that level but I also suspect it will retain it's popularity, because for most I think it is a fun little ride with some cool effects. And honestly that's all the majority of people are looking for.