Possible update to Genie+

[tjkraz]

I've long thought that the one way Disney could help improve the overall attraction experience would be to find a way to guarantee short waits (FP / LL) for a certain number of attractions based upon the length of your hotel stay, while at the same time limiting guests to one FP / LL per attraction, per visit.

In the years leading up to the pandemic, Flight of Passage and Navi River were a consistent problem. They were tiered, so you could only do one per day. But even then, you needed to be online right when the FP+ window opened in order to book something. Many people missed those attractions entirely. Meanwhile, I'm sure there were others using workarounds or just good luck to book them multiple times over the course of a trip. Same was true when Rise of the Resistance was part of the virtual queue lottery system--some got on, many did not.

If I'm staying at a WDW resort for 7 nights, find a way to give me the ability to at least get one ride on FOP, Rise, Tron, Guardians, Remy, etc. Some may bristle at the idea of being restricted in that manner. Some would find a way to work around it. But if you want to foster some semblance of fairness, that's the best way to do it. No ride reservation system is going to overcome daily capacities. If Rise can only handle 1/3 of the people visiting HS in a given day, thousands are going to be left out. However, if I plan 3 days at HS, let me be part of that fortunate 1/3 at least once.

Start with the idea that with 7 days in the parks, guests should get access to every attraction at least once. If people take shorter trips of 6 or 5 or 4 days, they get fewer guarantees. If you eliminate the duplication by people staying in 30,000 Disney Resort rooms, it should go a long way toward opening up access for locals and day guests.

Biggest drawback is that you're flat out telling people that 7 days on property only gets you one FP/LL for Rise, one for Tron, etc. But isn't that better than the reality of many people walking away with ZERO rides?

 

[NotUrsula]

All I can tell you is that 20 years ago, in summer I could get to the parks around rope drop, stay 3-4 hours, then return to a park at about sundown and stay until closing, riding nearly everything I wanted to during my 10-11 hours of park time, with an avg. 5-hr break at mid-day. Occasionally I'd be boxed out of a particular ride due to FP availability and atypically long standby waits, but I'd walk away satisfied for my day 97% of the time. I just returned from a week at WDW yesterday, and my days no longer went anything like that, and in most parks I managed an average of one attraction for every 3 hours of park time WITHOUT the long mid-day break to do other things.

So, what's changed between then and now, besides me being older and no longer having to deal with small children in the parks? I'm leaving Genie+ and LL out of the equation, because I don't use them and because I don't think they are actually the root of the problem. The biggest change, AFAICS, is throughput capacity in terms of open hours. The load speed hasn't changed much, but the number of hours a park is typically open is WAY lower than it used to be. MK, in particular, used to routinely open at 8 am and close at 1 am during normal US school vacation periods, and 7am-3am was fairly common on Friday, Saturday, and any pre-holiday Monday. Last week the typical MK day was 9 am to 10 pm. That's 4 fewer hours of capacity. Crowds also used to tend to self-regulate by age; mornings were for the truly dedicated (there for the FP), and those with small children, and late evenings were for ride afficionados and adults. It used to be that those with young kids who chose not to take a mid-day break were usually done at the park by about 3 pm; they played in the morning and early afternoon, napped in strollers while their parents ate or shopped, then watched the parade and left. Then there was a second wave that lasted until the end of first fireworks show and left, leaving the parks wide open to the late riders while half of everyone else who was left in the park staked out a viewing spot for the second round of fireworks. Also, at that time, if you wanted FP access to a hot E-ticket, you had to get your tush to the park early to get it in paper form, and once there, you were able to get on the lesser rides quickly and get them out of the way. Crowds also used to tend to self-regulate by age; mornings were for the truly dedicated (there strictly for the rides), and those with small children, and late evenings were for teens and adults.

I've noticed lately that regular merchandise sales seem down, and that the people you see with armfuls of merch are buying multiples of several things. (They may just have large families, but I don't think so.) It's important to remember that the original reason for FP wasn't to sell short lines, but to keep us in places where we had the potential to spend money while we waited. Unless they are going to argue that we're spending all our money through our phones while in line, that revenue is being lost again. (My family bought exactly zero parks merch last week over 7 park days, because we didn't want to carry it and were always either in ride lines or consuming drinks or food. It was like 1987 all over again in that respect.)

If you are going to argue that easing line congestion and wait times is the true route to guest satisfaction, then I'd argue that going back to some old practices (with the help of technology) is probably the best way to have that happen. 1) Extend hours by at least an extra 4 on days that are in predictably high demand, which includes ALL weekends, Mondays at MK, and days bookending holidays. 2) Bring back free park hopping, at least on a "free hopping day" basis using the app, so as to rebalance crowds if lopsided crowding becomes a problem, and 3) go back to no expiration on multiday tickets, or at least give it 2 years. People used to be a lot less obsessed with getting on every ride when they knew they could always save that ticket for use at a later date (even if they didn't actually do it.) Oh, and also, bring back the danged parking trams at all parks, so that people are not deterred from park-hopping or taking a mid-day break by the thought of a 1/4 mile trek over hot coals.

I'd like to see free FP return, but as it was originally, same-day only, with a simultaneous-holding limit, and a kiosk in the park that has to be touched. (OK to make the FP itself electronic, however). Keep the paid option, but keep it exclusive & high-priced, so that the waiting is truly eliminated for it. And for Pete's sake, build some more attractions to handle all these people.

Something that MUST stop in hot weather is the dangerous practice (which I saw in action mid-day in temps over 90F at least 3X last week) of arranging the ride queue so that the majority of the wait is outdoors, leaving the indoor queue nearly empty. Sure, it gives guests a truer feel for how many people really are in line and probably sells more LL, but it's also likely to cause serious heat-related injuries, so knock it off. WDW rides have indoor queues for a reason, and they need to be used for that reason.

 

[TaraS29]

All I can tell you is that 20 years ago, in summer I could get to the parks around rope drop, stay 3-4 hours, then return to a park at about sundown and stay until closing, riding nearly everything I wanted to during my 10-11 hours of park time, with an avg. 5-hr break at mid-day. Occasionally I'd be boxed out of a particular ride due to FP availability and atypically long standby waits, but I'd walk away satisfied for my day 97% of the time. I just returned from a week at WDW yesterday, and my days no longer went anything like that, and in most parks I managed an average of one attraction for every 3 hours of park time WITHOUT the long mid-day break to do other things.

So, what's changed between then and now, besides me being older and no longer having to deal with small children in the parks? I'm leaving Genie+ and LL out of the equation, because I don't use them and because I don't think they are actually the root of the problem. The biggest change, AFAICS, is throughput capacity in terms of open hours. The load speed hasn't changed, but the number of hours a park is typically open is WAY lower than it used to be. MK, in particular, used to routinely open at 8 am and close at 1 am during normal US school vacation periods, and 7am-3am was fairly common on Friday, Saturday, and any pre-holiday Monday. Last week the typical MK day was 9 am to 10 pm. That's 4 fewer hours of capacity. Crowds also used to tend to self-regulate by age; mornings were for the truly dedicated (there for the FP), and those with small children, and late evenings were for ride afficionados and adults. It used to be that those with young kids who chose not to take a mid-day break were usually done at the park by about 3 pm; they played in the morning and early afternoon, napped in strollers while their parents ate or shopped, then watched the parade and left. Then there was a second wave that lasted until the end of first fireworks show and left, leaving the parks wide open to the late riders while half of everyone else who was left in the park staked out a viewing spot for the second round of fireworks. Also, at that time, if you wanted FP access to a hot E-ticket, you had to get your tush to the park early to get it in paper form, and once there, you were able to get on the lesser rides quickly and get them out of the way. Crowds also used to tend to self-regulate by age; mornings were for the truly dedicated (there strictly for the rides), and those with small children, and late evenings were for teens and adults.

I've noticed lately that regular merchandise sales seem down, and that the people you see with armfuls of merch are buying multiples of several things. (They may just have large families, but I don't think so.) It's important to remember that the original reason for FP wasn't to sell short lines, but to keep us in places where we had the potential to spend money while we waited. Unless they are going to argue that we're spending all our money through our phones while in line, that revenue is being lost again. (We bought exactly zero parks merch last week over 7 park days, because we didn't want to carry it and were always either in ride lines or consuming drinks or food. It was like 1987 all over again in that respect.)

If you are going to argue that easing line congestion and wait times is the true route to guest satisfaction, then I'd argue that going back to some old practices (with the help of technology) is probably the best way to have that happen. 1) Extend hours by at least an extra 4 on days that are in predictably high demand, which includes ALL weekends, Mondays at MK, and days bookending holidays. 2) Bring back free park hopping, at least on a "free hopping day" basis using the app, so as to rebalance crowds if lopsided crowding becomes a problem, and 3) go back to no expiration on multiday tickets, or at least give it 2 years. People used to be a lot less obsessed with getting on every ride when they knew they could always save that ticket for use at a later date (even if they didn't actually do it.) Oh, and also, bring back the danged parking trams at all parks, so that people are not deterred from park-hopping or taking a mid-day break by the thought of a 1/4 mile trek over hot coals.

I'd like to see free FP return, but as it was originally, with a simultaneous-holding limit, and a kiosk in the park that has to be touched. (OK to make the FP itself electronic, however). Keep the paid option, but keep it exclusive & high-priced, so that the waiting is truly eliminated for it.

And for Pete's sake, build some more attractions to handle all these people. Something that MUST stop in hot weather is the dangerous practice (which I saw in action mid-day in temps over 90F at least 3X last week) of arranging the ride queue so that the majority of the wait is outdoors, leaving the indoor queue nearly empty. Sure, it gives guests a truer feel for how many people really are in line and probably sells more LL, but it's also likely to cause serious heat-related injuries, so knock it off. WDW rides have indoor queues for a reason, and they need to be used for that reason.

Yes!! I would love longer operating hours. We were there in 2019 when they opened parks at 0630 every day because they thought Galaxy’s Edge would lead to massive crowds, and those early mornings were amazing!

Completely agree about park hopping too. It’s so frustrating to get stuck somewhere until 2pm.

And yes, as a pale Brit, please Disney, I need more indoor lines!

 

[DLgal]

All I can tell you is that 20 years ago, in summer I could get to the parks around rope drop, stay 3-4 hours, then return to a park at about sundown and stay until closing, riding nearly everything I wanted to during my 10-11 hours of park time, with an avg. 5-hr break at mid-day. Occasionally I'd be boxed out of a particular ride due to FP availability and atypically long standby waits, but I'd walk away satisfied for my day 97% of the time. I just returned from a week at WDW yesterday, and my days no longer went anything like that, and in most parks I managed an average of one attraction for every 3 hours of park time WITHOUT the long mid-day break to do other things.

So, what's changed between then and now, besides me being older and no longer having to deal with small children in the parks? I'm leaving Genie+ and LL out of the equation, because I don't use them and because I don't think they are actually the root of the problem. The biggest change, AFAICS, is throughput capacity in terms of open hours. The load speed hasn't changed much, but the number of hours a park is typically open is WAY lower than it used to be. MK, in particular, used to routinely open at 8 am and close at 1 am during normal US school vacation periods, and 7am-3am was fairly common on Friday, Saturday, and any pre-holiday Monday. Last week the typical MK day was 9 am to 10 pm. That's 4 fewer hours of capacity. Crowds also used to tend to self-regulate by age; mornings were for the truly dedicated (there for the FP), and those with small children, and late evenings were for ride afficionados and adults. It used to be that those with young kids who chose not to take a mid-day break were usually done at the park by about 3 pm; they played in the morning and early afternoon, napped in strollers while their parents ate or shopped, then watched the parade and left. Then there was a second wave that lasted until the end of first fireworks show and left, leaving the parks wide open to the late riders while half of everyone else who was left in the park staked out a viewing spot for the second round of fireworks. Also, at that time, if you wanted FP access to a hot E-ticket, you had to get your tush to the park early to get it in paper form, and once there, you were able to get on the lesser rides quickly and get them out of the way. Crowds also used to tend to self-regulate by age; mornings were for the truly dedicated (there strictly for the rides), and those with small children, and late evenings were for teens and adults.

I've noticed lately that regular merchandise sales seem down, and that the people you see with armfuls of merch are buying multiples of several things. (They may just have large families, but I don't think so.) It's important to remember that the original reason for FP wasn't to sell short lines, but to keep us in places where we had the potential to spend money while we waited. Unless they are going to argue that we're spending all our money through our phones while in line, that revenue is being lost again. (My family bought exactly zero parks merch last week over 7 park days, because we didn't want to carry it and were always either in ride lines or consuming drinks or food. It was like 1987 all over again in that respect.)

If you are going to argue that easing line congestion and wait times is the true route to guest satisfaction, then I'd argue that going back to some old practices (with the help of technology) is probably the best way to have that happen. 1) Extend hours by at least an extra 4 on days that are in predictably high demand, which includes ALL weekends, Mondays at MK, and days bookending holidays. 2) Bring back free park hopping, at least on a "free hopping day" basis using the app, so as to rebalance crowds if lopsided crowding becomes a problem, and 3) go back to no expiration on multiday tickets, or at least give it 2 years. People used to be a lot less obsessed with getting on every ride when they knew they could always save that ticket for use at a later date (even if they didn't actually do it.) Oh, and also, bring back the danged parking trams at all parks, so that people are not deterred from park-hopping or taking a mid-day break by the thought of a 1/4 mile trek over hot coals.

I'd like to see free FP return, but as it was originally, same-day only, with a simultaneous-holding limit, and a kiosk in the park that has to be touched. (OK to make the FP itself electronic, however). Keep the paid option, but keep it exclusive & high-priced, so that the waiting is truly eliminated for it. And for Pete's sake, build some more attractions to handle all these people.

Something that MUST stop in hot weather is the dangerous practice (which I saw in action mid-day in temps over 90F at least 3X last week) of arranging the ride queue so that the majority of the wait is outdoors, leaving the indoor queue nearly empty. Sure, it gives guests a truer feel for how many people really are in line and probably sells more LL, but it's also likely to cause serious heat-related injuries, so knock it off. WDW rides have indoor queues for a reason, and they need to be used for that reason.

I agree that the WDW park hours are insulting for how much it costs to go there. Disneyland has managed to keep 8am-12am (8am-10pm at DCA) park hours in effect for most of the year. Every single Friday-Sunday year round has those hours, along with daily in the summer and peak spring break and Christmas time. Why is it that WDW parks close so early? 7pm at AK in the summer is a joke. Epcot needs to be open until at least 10pm nightly, and MK should be 12am closing basically all the time, but especially in the summer when it's so damn hot during the day.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I remember those days when it was close to midnight at MK that's when the fun was really just starting. I'm a late night person by nature and these park hours are a joke. We're paying more than ever and for things that used to be free. Isn't that enough for corporate?? At least keep the parks open later!

 

[jlundeen]

Instead of later hours, they are making more money with After Hours ticketed events and parties....

 

[TheDailyMoo]

Instead of later hours, they are making more money with After Hours ticketed events and parties....

Honestly, make every night ticketed then, especially at MK. I'd gladly pay 50, 60, 70 bucks for an extra couple of hours there rather than 27 for Genie+.

 

[PDXmouse]

G+ and its predecessors just redistribute the same amount of capacity to people who willing to pay in time (research) or money (G+ and $ILL). They do not create any capacity.

The *only* way to create capacity is to extend park hours and build more attractions that people want to ride/watch.

 

[New Mouse]

I've long thought that the one way Disney could help improve the overall attraction experience would be to find a way to guarantee short waits (FP / LL) for a certain number of attractions based upon the length of your hotel stay, while at the same time limiting guests to one FP / LL per attraction, per visit.

In the years leading up to the pandemic, Flight of Passage and Navi River were a consistent problem. They were tiered, so you could only do one per day. But even then, you needed to be online right when the FP+ window opened in order to book something. Many people missed those attractions entirely. Meanwhile, I'm sure there were others using workarounds or just good luck to book them multiple times over the course of a trip. Same was true when Rise of the Resistance was part of the virtual queue lottery system--some got on, many did not.

If I'm staying at a WDW resort for 7 nights, find a way to give me the ability to at least get one ride on FOP, Rise, Tron, Guardians, Remy, etc. Some may bristle at the idea of being restricted in that manner. Some would find a way to work around it. But if you want to foster some semblance of fairness, that's the best way to do it. No ride reservation system is going to overcome daily capacities. If Rise can only handle 1/3 of the people visiting HS in a given day, thousands are going to be left out. However, if I plan 3 days at HS, let me be part of that fortunate 1/3 at least once.

Start with the idea that with 7 days in the parks, guests should get access to every attraction at least once. If people take shorter trips of 6 or 5 or 4 days, they get fewer guarantees. If you eliminate the duplication by people staying in 30,000 Disney Resort rooms, it should go a long way toward opening up access for locals and day guests.

Biggest drawback is that you're flat out telling people that 7 days on property only gets you one FP/LL for Rise, one for Tron, etc. But isn't that better than the reality of many people walking away with ZERO rides?

I mean it's debatable, but its literally a problem that Disney chose to create for itself to make a paid fast pass system. If things work efficiently Disney loses a revenue stream. If Disney builds more attractions to actually meet demand, they lose a revenue stream. There's 0 incentive for Disney to fix things seeing that they are making more money even though people are doing less and enjoying themselves less.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I mean it's debatable, but its literally a problem that Disney chose to create for itself to make a paid fast pass system. If things work efficiently Disney loses a revenue stream. If Disney builds more attractions to actually meet demand, they lose a revenue stream. There's 0 incentive for Disney to fix things seeing that they are making more money even though people are doing less and enjoying themselves less.

This is basically what Disney's theme park experience all boils down to. They've crossed the line from old Disney that wanted to create as much customer value even if it meant eating costs to what it is now, just another large corporation looking at it's bottom line and nothing more. And sure it would be hard to run a business the size and scope of Disney in 2023 doing things like it was 1993 but man you just expect more out of them. At worst you wish they could at least find a happy middle ground where they sacrifice some profits for the greater satisfaction of the park going guest but still make a hefty profit.

 

[lockets]

The only change is in 2024 there will be some sort of advanced booking available.

Very anxious to see what Genie+ advance booking looks like. It would be nice to be able to book at least one or two attractions per day well before your vacation starts.

Unless they totally revamp the whole thing again, it's most likely that you will be able to book your first LL each day a head of time. There isn't enough ride capacity to give out more than 1 per party a day.

So are we thinking it will be very similar to FastPass with less deliverables plus an increased fee?

 

[lockets]

This is basically what Disney's theme park experience all boils down to. They've crossed the line from old Disney that wanted to create as much customer value even if it meant eating costs to what it is now, just another large corporation looking at it's bottom line and nothing more. And sure it would be hard to run a business the size and scope of Disney in 2023 doing things like it was 1993 but man you just expect more out of them. At worst you wish they could at least find a happy middle ground where they sacrifice some profits for the greater satisfaction of the park going guest but still make a hefty profit.

Speaking of boiling... This is what comes to mind every time a target moves, a price increases, another "gotcha" is added...

 

[Jrb1979]

So are we thinking it will be very similar to FastPass with less deliverables plus an increased fee?

I'm thinking the change will be instead of booking your first LL at 7am each day, you will be able to book ahead of time. I don't see it going back to 3 a day as there isn't enough ride capacity for that.

 

[Dcgc28]

I think that is Disney’s point. They aren’t pricing for the hood of the guest, they are pricing to maximize profit.

It’s also to ensure the LL doesn’t get overwhelmed and become a stand by line.

 

[Princess2R]

I'm thinking the change will be instead of booking your first LL at 7am each day, you will be able to book ahead of time. I don't see it going back to 3 a day as there isn't enough ride capacity for that.

That's my guess too .

 

[tjkraz]

I mean it's debatable, but its literally a problem that Disney chose to create for itself to make a paid fast pass system. If things work efficiently Disney loses a revenue stream. If Disney builds more attractions to actually meet demand, they lose a revenue stream. There's 0 incentive for Disney to fix things seeing that they are making more money even though people are doing less and enjoying themselves less.

Animal Kingdom certainly needs help, and EP + DHS to a lesser degree. But then we've got Magic Kingdom, Disneyland and DCA which are about as built-up as can be, and wait times still rise to 1.5 - 2 hours.

Problem is more stuff brings more people. If a park maintained the exact same attendance and the average visit time remained the same, adding a couple high capacity attractions that each could handle 2000+ riders per hour would reduce wait times across the board. But that's not what happens. More attractions brings larger crowds. And the existing crowds want to stay in the park longer.

If there is improvement in wait times, it's not necessarily in areas people want to see. 10 years ago, attractions like Star Tours and Soarin had 60+ minute waits most of the day. Today a lot of their popularity has been supplanted by newer experiences. But there really isn't a world where Disney builds so much at a park that wait times are <30 minutes across the board.

 

[Jrb1979]

Animal Kingdom certainly needs help, and EP + DHS to a lesser degree. But then we've got Magic Kingdom, Disneyland and DCA which are about as built-up as can be, and wait times still rise to 1.5 - 2 hours.

Problem is more stuff brings more people. If a park maintained the exact same attendance and the average visit time remained the same, adding a couple high capacity attractions that each could handle 2000+ riders per hour would reduce wait times across the board. But that's not what happens. More attractions brings larger crowds. And the existing crowds want to stay in the park longer.

If there is improvement in wait times, it's not necessarily in areas people want to see. 10 years ago, attractions like Star Tours and Soarin had 60+ minute waits most of the day. Today a lot of their popularity has been supplanted by newer experiences. But there really isn't a world where Disney builds so much at a park that wait times are <30 minutes across the board.

Not necessarily. They need more attractions on the level of Dumbo. They also need to stop marketing every new attraction as the next best thing. They don't need more top attractions, they need smaller ones to fill out the parks.

 

[Disney Bobby]

The inability to plan ahead is a deal breaker for us. We are out of state and have gone at least 4 times a year for over 20 years (sometimes up to 7 times) until the pandemic, always staying deluxe and often club level. Won't go back until we can plan and leadership makes some other changes.

 

[tjkraz]

Not necessarily. They need more attractions on the level of Dumbo. They also need to stop marketing every new attraction as the next best thing. They don't need more top attractions, they need smaller ones to fill out the parks.

When you spend $250-500M on an attraction, it's going to be promoted. The rest is very subjective. Yes, I saw ads for Remy but don't recall any of them proclaiming that it is the greatest attraction yet. People want to ride the new stuff.

Any additions would help. But if we're talking about adding attractions with modest demand, modest thrills and low rider capacity (like Dumbo), I don't see it having a major impact on more popular attractions. Drop something like that into DHS and it gives me one more attraction I might spent 10 minutes riding before I leave. Alien saucers basically IS that attraction now. If the line is short or I have Genie and can get a quick return time, I might devote a few minutes to it. But it doesn't pull me out of the line for RNR, TOT, Falcon, etc.

 

[BrianL]

When you spend $250-500M on an attraction, it's going to be promoted. The rest is very subjective. Yes, I saw ads for Remy but don't recall any of them proclaiming that it is the greatest attraction yet. People want to ride the new stuff.

Any additions would help. But if we're talking about adding attractions with modest demand, modest thrills and low rider capacity (like Dumbo), I don't see it having a major impact on more popular attractions. Drop something like that into DHS and it gives me one more attraction I might spent 10 minutes riding before I leave. Alien saucers basically IS that attraction now. If the line is short or I have Genie and can get a quick return time, I might devote a few minutes to it. But it doesn't pull me out of the line for RNR, TOT, Falcon, etc.

While I think your point is valid, a lot of people with younger kids need some spinner type attractions. A lot of the recent, "big" attractions all have height requirements. Galaxy's Edge needs at least one ride that doesn't have one. They don't all have to be as simplistic as Swirling Saucers, but those types of rides do serve a purpose.