Marathon Weekend 2017!

[AThrillingChase]

Ha! Genius is far too kind of a descriptor!

I've just been asking questions and talking to the same RD people since Tinker Bell, so I've been able to get a great understanding of how their operation works - compared to the local race organizers I work with here in Funkytown.

I bought my bib! YAY! I just have to use my link to register with Active. But, now I think I could use some opinions....

My best race has been wine and dine a few weeks ago (2:42). So obviously I would rather put that time in my registration. But, that was run a month after the general POT deadline. Would it be ok since I am just now registering? I also have a 2:49 from marathon weekend 2016 (but that of course puts me after the 2:45 cut off). Thoughts anyone??

 

[DopeyBadger]

You might want to touch base with @DopeyBadger about some of his time-based training philosophies and research. He's got some information that once you get past a 2:30 or so on a given training run (I'm not certain if there's a rule of thumb for a weekly time total) you hit a point of diminishing returns on the benefit of training while the risk of injury starts to increase significantly. So if you've slowed down but kept your mileage constant you may actually be increasing your risk of injury. It might be beneficial to switch to something more time-based than mileage-based while you get used to your orthotics. Once you get back up to speed you could look at switching back to mileage. Just a thought...

The key to this (and the 2:30 suggestion) falls under the umbrella of an appropriate long run pace (roughly 40-120 seconds slower than marathon pace determined by training plan). If @Z-Knight slowed his pace even slower than the "typical" long run zone, then the 2:30 single run timing starts to become longer (to 3 or more hours). Hence you could run so slow (i.e. walk) and you would be far under the point at which you cross the lactate threshold as it increases from it's starting value, thus creating in essence no max time duration. There is no set "weekly time rule" but it comes down to the balance of the training throughout the week to justify the higher and higher duration length. Again based on a normal marathon training plan and pace, I'd say somewhere around 10-14 hours is the max for high end running but a lot of factors go into that projection that may or may not be applicable to each individual's unique characteristics.

 

[Z-Knight]

You might want to touch base with @DopeyBadger about some of his time-based training philosophies and research. He's got some information that once you get past a 2:30 or so on a given training run (I'm not certain if there's a rule of thumb for a weekly time total) you hit a point of diminishing returns on the benefit of training while the risk of injury starts to increase significantly. So if you've slowed down but kept your mileage constant you may actually be increasing your risk of injury. It might be beneficial to switch to something more time-based than mileage-based while you get used to your orthotics. Once you get back up to speed you could look at switching back to mileage. Just a thought...

Yeah, good points. I don't exceed 2:30 on my runs thus far - even with having to go slower. I keep my long runs to about 9:40-10:00 min/miles and my longest so far has been 16 miles. I will do one 20 mile in 3 weeks and a couple of 18s as well, but will likely be doing run/walk on those to avoid injury. At this point I've given up on a good marathon because 2016 has been so horrible - all due to these stupid cuboid bones. I agree with FFigawi that I need to probably pull back but I actually have done that a lot already - to the point that my conditioning sucks. Really hoping these orthotics will allow me to return to my previous form where I was running at 8:20 half-marathon pace and was on track for even faster in training.

I can't wait for 2016 to be OVER!!!! 2017 won't start off great because the marathon will be slow again since my conditioning is shot right now, but as long as I don't get hurt then 2017 will finish great and I'll be ready for Dopey 2018 no matter what!

I really should listen to the advice, especially from FFigawi, but I am currently not feeling that great about myself. Since I can't change my loser status I can at least change my fat status, so that's my focus for these next few months. I know I'll still get hurt as a result, but to be honest I need to try. Its really frustrating because you all have such great progress while I seem to suck at everything I try.

 

[jeremy1002]

My training runs have ranged between 60 (shorter runs) and 100 (longer runs) seconds of the pace I'm hoping to run in the marathon. Does that training pace v goal pace sound in the right ballpark? Or maybe that is not a simple question to answer....

 

[DerTobi75]

When should be the last long run before the race?

 

[DopeyBadger]

My training runs have ranged between 60 (shorter runs) and 100 (longer runs) seconds of the pace I'm hoping to run in the marathon. Does that training pace v goal pace sound in the right ballpark? Or maybe that is not a simple question to answer....

Sounds about right. It depends on the training plan. But if you give me a recent HM time (or any race time) that is a reasonable estimate of your fitness I can give you a suggested training pace spectrum.

When should be the last long run before the race?

Depends on the distance and the training plan. For a marathon, typically 21 days out. For a half marathon, typically 14 days out. It has to do with the recovery necessary from that run as well as the length of time (in days) it takes your body to adapt to the training stimulus. Different workouts (dependent on pace and duration) have different recovery and adaptation windows.

 

[jeremy1002]

Sounds about right. It depends on the training plan. But if you give me a recent HM time (or any race time) that is a reasonable estimate of your fitness I can give you a suggested training pace spectrum.

I ran a half in May at 2:26, then the W&D half at 2:41 a few weeks ago but I was being careful about pace with the marathon in mind. My hope rolleyes is to run the marathon in under 5hrs (11:26).

My training runs have been between 11:50 and 12:45 pace.

 

[camaker]

Yeah, good points. I don't exceed 2:30 on my runs thus far - even with having to go slower. I keep my long runs to about 9:40-10:00 min/miles and my longest so far has been 16 miles. I will do one 20 mile in 3 weeks and a couple of 18s as well, but will likely be doing run/walk on those to avoid injury. At this point I've given up on a good marathon because 2016 has been so horrible - all due to these stupid cuboid bones. I agree with FFigawi that I need to probably pull back but I actually have done that a lot already - to the point that my conditioning sucks. Really hoping these orthotics will allow me to return to my previous form where I was running at 8:20 half-marathon pace and was on track for even faster in training.

I can't wait for 2016 to be OVER!!!! 2017 won't start off great because the marathon will be slow again since my conditioning is shot right now, but as long as I don't get hurt then 2017 will finish great and I'll be ready for Dopey 2018 no matter what!

I really should listen to the advice, especially from FFigawi, but I am currently not feeling that great about myself. Since I can't change my loser status I can at least change my fat status, so that's my focus for these next few months. I know I'll still get hurt as a result, but to be honest I need to try. Its really frustrating because you all have such great progress while I seem to suck at everything I try.

I can certainly understand the frustration with injuries! I feel like I'm constantly battling to avoid residual injuries from my team sports days flaring up. I can't tell you what's right for your situation, but I can tell you with certainty that slowing down my training dramatically had a huge impact on my conditioning and fitness. I'm a bit slower than you are. My most recent half marathon run at race pace, but prior to the new training regimen came in at 8:58/mile. Shortly after that I started my slowed down @DopeyBadger training regimen of 2 easy runs, 1 tempo run and 1 long run per week with the easy paces in the 10:54-11:42/mile range with an ultimate goal of running a 4:15ish marathon.

The biggest barometer of what that training plan did for me shows up in my heart rate zones, in my opinion. When I started the plan, I ran a 4 mile "easy" run and my heart rate was ~35% zones 1/2, ~65% zones 3/4. As the plan neared completion, I ran an 8 mile "easy" run at the same target pacing. For that one my heart rate was ~91% zones 1/2, ~9% zones 3/4 despite being twice the distance! Ultimately, I was able to run a 4:20:22 on an extremely hilly marathon course and negative split it. I'm looking forward to deciding where to go from here.

Initially, I was pretty skeptical of the slow down to get faster approach. Now you can count me as a convert. I also didn't suffer anything that I would consider an injury during the plan. I'm just suggesting you think about this approach since you've seen what it can do for a lot of us on here. Maybe it can get you through to bigger and faster things, too! Good luck with finding what works for you now and on into 2017!

 

[croach]

I bought my bib! YAY! I just have to use my link to register with Active. But, now I think I could use some opinions....

My best race has been wine and dine a few weeks ago (2:42). So obviously I would rather put that time in my registration. But, that was run a month after the general POT deadline. Would it be ok since I am just now registering? I also have a 2:49 from marathon weekend 2016 (but that of course puts me after the 2:45 cut off). Thoughts anyone??

Congratulations! Not sure on PoT thing though - sorry.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I ran a half in May at 2:26, then the W&D half at 2:41 a few weeks ago but I was being careful about pace with the marathon in mind. My hope rolleyes is to run the marathon in under 5hrs (11:26).

My training runs have been between 11:50 and 12:45 pace.

This is what my calculator comes up with for a 2:26 HM recent race (although May is quite some time ago and your fitness definitely could have improved since then).



If 100% of your training has been between 11:50-12:45 then you are likely working on a lot of endurance building. This is good as the marathon is a 99% endurance event. I wouldn't suggest changing anything because 1) we're close to race day and 2) because the paces you have been training at have been appropriate for your fitness level. I typically find that 80% of my training is at "Long Run" or slower. This is the endurance zone.

My one caution is on your goal time. The calculator says 5:04 under ideal conditions and when fully trained. Dependent on WDW marathon weekend, there is no guarantee for ideal conditions. And dependent on your training, hitting that "quoted" time is tough. My suggestion is to ease into race day's pace. If your goal time is an 11:26 min/mile, and your relative current fitness says 11:37, then a 2% negative split would suggest a starting pace of around 11:50-12:00 for the first few miles. This will allow you to run longer at your desired pace. Once you get far enough into the run, say around mile 14-18 then consider starting to pick up the pace if your body will allow you. Because of the way our body works physiologically, it is best to either even split or negative split. Starting too fast has disastrous effects. So if your body isn't prepared for an 11:26 min/mile pace, then starting at that for the marathon may lead to 14:00-15:00 min/miles on the back end. Whereas, if you start at 11:50-12:00 and find you can speed up then you may indeed finish faster than if you started at 11:26. The "crux" pace can be razor thin for a marathon and it isn't always easy to predict what that pace is. It's dependent on two main variables: Lactate Threshold Pace and Running Economy (the ability to maintain Lactate Threshold at a certain pace for longer durations).

 

[Dis5150]

My "middle of the night freak out" last night was that I was going to be at WDW during the new, early, W&D registration! Luckily when I got up I checked again and it is the 17th. We come home the 15th. I was freaking out, thinking I was going to have to register 5 people for the 5k on my phone! I will be stressed out enough trying to register us all from my desktop at work. I know everyone is supposed to register themselves but we have a better chance at us all getting in if I do it all. None of them have a clue - it would be more difficult explaining to them all how to do it than it will be doing it myself.

 

[jeremy1002]

This is what my calculator comes up with for a 2:26 HM recent race (although May is quite some time ago and your fitness definitely could have improved since then).

View attachment 208320

If 100% of your training has been between 11:50-12:45 then you are likely working on a lot of endurance building. This is good as the marathon is a 99% endurance event. I wouldn't suggest changing anything because 1) we're close to race day and 2) because the paces you have been training at have been appropriate for your fitness level. I typically find that 80% of my training is at "Long Run" or slower. This is the endurance zone.

My one caution is on your goal time. The calculator says 5:04 under ideal conditions and when fully trained. Dependent on WDW marathon weekend, there is no guarantee for ideal conditions. And dependent on your training, hitting that "quoted" time is tough. My suggestion is to ease into race day's pace. If your goal time is an 11:26 min/mile, and your relative current fitness says 11:37, then a 2% negative split would suggest a starting pace of around 11:50-12:00 for the first few miles. This will allow you to run longer at your desired pace. Once you get far enough into the run, say around mile 14-18 then consider starting to pick up the pace if your body will allow you. Because of the way our body works physiologically, it is best to either even split or negative split. Starting too fast has disastrous effects. So if your body isn't prepared for an 11:26 min/mile pace, then starting at that for the marathon may lead to 14:00-15:00 min/miles on the back end. Whereas, if you start at 11:50-12:00 and find you can speed up then you may indeed finish faster than if you started at 11:26. The "crux" pace can be razor thin for a marathon and it isn't always easy to predict what that pace is. It's dependent on two main variables: Lactate Threshold Pace and Running Economy (the ability to maintain Lactate Threshold at a certain pace for longer durations).

Thank you so much for all of this insight! I have definitely been thinking that 5hrs will be tough, and really appreciate what you said about saving something in the tank for the latter portion of the race. I've found on long training runs I can run the last few miles much faster if my first few miles were a little on the slow end.

 

[Keels]

I bought my bib! YAY! I just have to use my link to register with Active. But, now I think I could use some opinions....

My best race has been wine and dine a few weeks ago (2:42). So obviously I would rather put that time in my registration. But, that was run a month after the general POT deadline. Would it be ok since I am just now registering? I also have a 2:49 from marathon weekend 2016 (but that of course puts me after the 2:45 cut off). Thoughts anyone??

If the PoT submitted occurred AFTER the PoT Deadline, it will not be accepted. My girlfriend did this when she registered late for Pixie Dust Challenge and she was placed in the last corral. When she went to race relations, she was told explicitly that she was flagged because the date she entered for PoT occurred AFTER the deadline.

 

[Keels]

I really should listen to the advice, especially from FFigawi, but I am currently not feeling that great about myself. Since I can't change my loser status I can at least change my fat status, so that's my focus for these next few months. I know I'll still get hurt as a result, but to be honest I need to try. Its really frustrating because you all have such great progress while I seem to suck at everything I try.

You are not a loser and you certainly don't suck at everything you try. Don't get in the quicksand of success around here - it's really easy for us to come on these boards and talk about how awesome things are going, but it's a lot harder to talk about when things go really s#!++y during training.

Sure, your training and conditioning aren't anywhere near where you'd like them ... I think we ALL have been there at some point before.

But you've got to keep in a positive headspace - even if you have to guilt-trip yourself, think of all the people out there that would love to be able to do these races, or even run in general, but can't. Run your best and your hardest for them, because they can't. Remember that at the end of the day, the goal is to finish this challenge and have fun at Disney.

Maybe this trip, you can focus on enjoying the races and having fun versus going for time? Meet characters. Ride Everest. See some fireworks and stay out past your normal race bedtime for one of the early races. Find any way you can to make some positive memories associated with running and training this time around than the current negative ones you're experiencing - it will definitely come in handy when you're feeling down and struggling with your training going forward!

In the meantime, does your gym have a bike? Maybe mix it up and add in an extra 30-45 minutes at your max speed on a recumbent bike - it's just another way to help your conditioning while taking the pressure off areas that are already giving you problems. I've seen really wonderful improvements in my aerobic endurance (basically trying to get back to my normal level in about 1/4 of the time) by more standard triathlon-style training - honestly, your body may just be ready for a break from the pounding that running takes on it. Swim, bike, even elliptical or summit climber for the same amount of time, but just mixing up the muscle set that you use will force your body to work a little harder in a way that it hasn't before and you might be surprised at the results.

 

[Ariel484]

You are not a loser and you certainly don't suck at everything you try. Don't get in the quicksand of success around here - it's really easy for us to come on these boards and talk about how awesome things are going, but it's a lot harder to talk about when things go really s#!++y during training.

TRUTH!!

 

[WhereInFlorida]

Depends on the distance and the training plan. For a marathon, typically 21 days out. For a half marathon, typically 14 days out. It has to do with the recovery necessary from that run as well as the length of time (in days) it takes your body to adapt to the training stimulus. Different workouts (dependent on pace and duration) have different recovery and adaptation windows.

Last couple plans had same for the marathon, longest run 21 days out with the last quality run (tempo) 10 days out.

 

[Keels]

TRUTH!!

I feel like you and I could write a book about that ...

 

[Ariel484]

I feel like you and I could write a book about that ...

It's sad because it's true.

 

[Z-Knight]

You are not a loser and you certainly don't suck at everything you try. Don't get in the quicksand of success around here - it's really easy for us to come on these boards and talk about how awesome things are going, but it's a lot harder to talk about when things go really s#!++y during training.

Sure, your training and conditioning aren't anywhere near where you'd like them ... I think we ALL have been there at some point before.

But you've got to keep in a positive headspace - even if you have to guilt-trip yourself, think of all the people out there that would love to be able to do these races, or even run in general, but can't. Run your best and your hardest for them, because they can't. Remember that at the end of the day, the goal is to finish this challenge and have fun at Disney.

Maybe this trip, you can focus on enjoying the races and having fun versus going for time? Meet characters. Ride Everest. See some fireworks and stay out past your normal race bedtime for one of the early races. Find any way you can to make some positive memories associated with running and training this time around than the current negative ones you're experiencing - it will definitely come in handy when you're feeling down and struggling with your training going forward!

In the meantime, does your gym have a bike? Maybe mix it up and add in an extra 30-45 minutes at your max speed on a recumbent bike - it's just another way to help your conditioning while taking the pressure off areas that are already giving you problems. I've seen really wonderful improvements in my aerobic endurance (basically trying to get back to my normal level in about 1/4 of the time) by more standard triathlon-style training - honestly, your body may just be ready for a break from the pounding that running takes on it. Swim, bike, even elliptical or summit climber for the same amount of time, but just mixing up the muscle set that you use will force your body to work a little harder in a way that it hasn't before and you might be surprised at the results.

Thank you! Those are very good ideas. I'll definitely try to stay positive - really I'm just doing these races for the Bling, so as long as I can finish then I can still get the Bling! I need to fill up those crazy medal holders that my Mom and I've been creating.

 

[croach]

I really should listen to the advice, especially from FFigawi, but I am currently not feeling that great about myself. Since I can't change my loser status I can at least change my fat status, so that's my focus for these next few months. I know I'll still get hurt as a result, but to be honest I need to try. Its really frustrating because you all have such great progress while I seem to suck at everything I try.

You're in no way a loser. All of us that do this for fun and fitness(nobody is paying us to do this craziness) can't ever be a loser if we are trying our best. It sure sounds like you're doing that getting out and fighting through injuries. And injuries can be so frustrating when you just want to run or do whatever exercise you choose to do. Like you, I've been dealing with a peroneal injury. It freaked me out so bad that I might not be able to run I went to a doctor for the first time in 20 years. So we all understand your frustration but please don't call yourself a loser.

You are not a loser and you certainly don't suck at everything you try. Don't get in the quicksand of success around here - it's really easy for us to come on these boards and talk about how awesome things are going, but it's a lot harder to talk about when things go really s#!++y during training.

Sure, your training and conditioning aren't anywhere near where you'd like them ... I think we ALL have been there at some point before.

But you've got to keep in a positive headspace - even if you have to guilt-trip yourself, think of all the people out there that would love to be able to do these races, or even run in general, but can't. Run your best and your hardest for them, because they can't. Remember that at the end of the day, the goal is to finish this challenge and have fun at Disney.

Maybe this trip, you can focus on enjoying the races and having fun versus going for time? Meet characters. Ride Everest. See some fireworks and stay out past your normal race bedtime for one of the early races. Find any way you can to make some positive memories associated with running and training this time around than the current negative ones you're experiencing - it will definitely come in handy when you're feeling down and struggling with your training going forward!

In the meantime, does your gym have a bike? Maybe mix it up and add in an extra 30-45 minutes at your max speed on a recumbent bike - it's just another way to help your conditioning while taking the pressure off areas that are already giving you problems. I've seen really wonderful improvements in my aerobic endurance (basically trying to get back to my normal level in about 1/4 of the time) by more standard triathlon-style training - honestly, your body may just be ready for a break from the pounding that running takes on it. Swim, bike, even elliptical or summit climber for the same amount of time, but just mixing up the muscle set that you use will force your body to work a little harder in a way that it hasn't before and you might be surprised at the results.

Preach it!