For $2 Billion Disney could have built 16 major attractions instead of fast pass+

[Money82]

I think you missed my point.

Additional FP+ offerings can help tip the scales for visitors on the fence in tough times, just like free dining did/does.

False.

Free dining saves people money which is why it can help tip the scale. Additional FP+ offerings don't save anyone any money.

A family won't suddenly be able to come up with 5K just because Disney offers them 2 additional FP per day. That's crazy.

 

[MrInfinity]

Where do you see that they built Soarin? They only mention the others in their portfolio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Structures

Built "in conjunction with" Disney. So it was a joint effort. I'd guess Disney Imagineering and Dynamic Structures steel construction, since they seem to build everything from bridges to telescopes to rides.

 

[Laketravis]

You mention stamped concrete a lot - I think I'm missing something because I thought they always used stamped concrete. It seems like the details in the walkways are in every guidebook/imagineering book I've ever read.

Is it not done well in the 7DMT queue? I usually love the little details on the ground - the peanuts in Storybook Circus, the rough, "mud" walkways in AK, the "jewels" around the magic carpets in Adventureland. I'm trying to remember what the ground was like in the Under the Sea queue. There was no line so we didn't spend a lot of time in it. Weren't there some details like shells embedded in the concrete? I honestly can't remember.

When I think of the entrance queues/preshows for attractions like EE and RnRC and Tower of Terror and even Test Track (before they stripped a lot of it out), I think more of a rich array of intricate props used to set and reinforce the theme rather than concrete cave/tunnel/portal surface features. Like glass cases and rooms full of artifacts, a unique pre-show with Aerosmith and Twilight Zone, a boarding area that visually reinforces the theme, etc...etc...

Then when I think of the two most recent attractions built in MK, they both feature concrete surfaces that are stamped or have things embedded into the concrete. And a couple of animated figurines with rear projector heads. There is no preshow, and the boarding areas for both are basic line portals. In comparison, they seem devoid of character.

They are two distinctly different techniques. One is manifested primarily out of imagination, the other cost.

 

[Hokie2000]

False.

Free dining saves people money which is why it can help tip the scale. Additional FP+ offerings don't save anyone any money.

A family won't suddenly be able to come up with 5K just because Disney offers them 2 additional FP per day. That's crazy.

Delivery aside, I agree with your post.

I think extra FP would only be an incentive to go during lean times if it cost money to begin with.

 

[Laketravis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Structures

Built "in conjunction with" Disney. So it was a joint effort. I'd guess Disney Imagineering and Dynamic Structures steel construction, since they seem to build everything from bridges to telescopes to rides.

Indeed it was. I find it interesting when looking over the portfolios of both companies how many large attractions/amusement/theme/thrill rides all over the world are built by the same companies.

 

[JimmyV]

Interesting. What I get from reading some articles, is that Disney invented it, then Vekoma later copied it, tweaking just enough to not lose a lawsuit.

Well, from the pictures on the Vekoma website, I'd take that case to a jury! What's really odd is that Disney is so closely attached to and still doing business with a company that would have copied its technology tweaking it just enough to not lose a lawsuit. You'd think the Disney Borg would blackball such a company.

 

[MrInfinity]

Indeed it was. I find it interesting when looking over the portfolios of both companies how many large attractions/amusement/theme/thrill rides all over the world are built by the same companies.

Yeah, good reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roller_coaster_manufacturers

Rocky Mountain makes the new Goliath here at SFGA...

Also Intamin is a big one, who made California Screamin and the famous Ferris Wheel with the sliding pods at California Adventure. Also millennium Force in Cedar Point, so the same companies that make wooden coasters also do giga-steel coasters.

The X2 (Magic Mountain) was made by Arrow Dynamics. So seems a lot of the coasters I like are made by a few different companies.

Well, from the pictures on the Vekoma website, I'd take that case to a jury! What's really odd is that Disney is so closely attached to and still doing business with a company that would have copied its technology tweaking it just enough to not lose a lawsuit. You'd think the Disney Borg would blackball such a company.

Yeah I'm searching but I can't find anything on a lawsuit, settlement, or agreement. Whatever was decided was kept out of the public eye.

 

[Laketravis]

Well, from the pictures on the Vekoma website, I'd take that case to a jury! What's really odd is that Disney is so closely attached to and still doing business with a company that would have copied its technology tweaking it just enough to not lose a lawsuit. You'd think the Disney Borg would blackball such a company.

There's gotta be some sort of licensing agreement involved if the two are substantially similar since Disney most definitely holds a patent on the design:

Soarin Ride Mechanism

 

[johde]

Also interesting is that what Vekoma now calls their "Mine Train" model which they're actively marketing, is a blatant copy Dynamic Structures' BTMRR.

There seems to be a working relationship between Vekoma and Disney, as they were contracted to build the SDMT.

According to Wikipedia, BTMRR at Paris and Tokyo was built by Vekoma, Florida by California I by Arrow, Only the latest Disneyland retracking was done by Dynamic Structures. Arrow, or Vekoma probably only did the track work. The Mountain and themeing was probably done by someone else. So they are not copying Dynamic Structures BTMRR, they are advertising the BTMRR they built.

If you want to talk about early "copying" by Disney. Cedarpoint had Arrow build Cedar Creek Mine Ride in 1969 to years before Arrow build Big Thunder Mountain for Disneyland/Walt Disney World. It doesn't have the elaborate themeing but it's the same ride system.

Knotts Berry Farm in 1969 had Arrow Dynamic (coincidentally) build Timber Mountain Log Ride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xO0ooC9Ltw A highly themed log flume 20 years before Arrow Built the ride mechanism for Splash Mountain at Disneyland. What's funny is looking at Youtube videos, it's Knott's that's accused to copying Disney and not the other way around.

 

[Laketravis]

According to Wikipedia, BTMRR at Paris and Tokyo was built by Vekoma, Florida by California I by Arrow, Only the latest Disneyland retracking was done by Dynamic Structures. Arrow, or Vekoma probably only did the track work. The Mountain and themeing was probably done by someone else. So they are not copying Dynamic Structures BTMRR, they are advertising the BTMRR they built.

If you want to talk about early "copying" by Disney. Cedarpoint had Arrow build Cedar Creek Mine Ride in 1969 to years before Arrow build Big Thunder Mountain for Disneyland/Walt Disney World. It doesn't have the elaborate themeing but it's the same ride system.

Knotts Berry Farm in 1969 had Arrow Dynamic (coincidentally) build Timber Mountain Log Ride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xO0ooC9Ltw A highly themed log flume 20 years before Arrow Built the ride mechanism for Splash Mountain at Disneyland. What's funny is looking at Youtube videos, it's Knott's that's accused to copying Disney and not the other way around.

Given these companies also produce a lot of the same track systems in use by (gasp!) Six Flags parks, and I only use those parks as an example because it's easy to verify they only cost $10-$12 million to construct with minimal if any theming, and given we now know that those same companies provide a lot of the same track concepts to Disney and that Disney adds their own distinctive elements to make it uniquely Disney, I still maintain that the core cost of $10-$12 million for the structural ride itself and another $25-$30 million for theming could produce as good or better a result than the hundreds of millions Disney has spent on the last few efforts. And a whole lot more $40 million quality attractions can be built than $200-$400 million attractions.

Just sayin'

 

[Hokie2000]

When I think of the entrance queues/preshows for attractions like EE and RnRC and Tower of Terror and even Test Track (before they stripped a lot of it out), I think more of a rich array of intricate props used to set and reinforce the theme rather than concrete cave/tunnel/portal surface features. Like glass cases and rooms full of artifacts, a unique pre-show with Aerosmith and ToT, a boarding area that visually reinforces the theme, etc...etc...

Then when I think of the two most recent attractions built in MK, they both feature concrete surfaces that are stamped or have things embedded into the concrete. And a couple of animated figurines with rear projector heads. There is no preshow, and the boarding areas for both are basic line portals. In comparison, they seem devoid of character.

They are two distinctly different techniques. One is manifested primarily out of imagination, the other cost.

You just described all Fantasyland rides besides ETWB.

I think they use the technique that fits the ride and the area it is built in. Ariel's Grotto/UTS ride queue is built like a grotto, so sculpted rockwork is utilized. Not all techniques work for all designs - you use what makes sense in the spirit of the ride, the story that it is supposed to tell, and the location it's supposed to remind you of. My favorite queue just might be the Nemo ride. It's a shame there's never a line, because I love how it transports me to the beach, then under water, with the tuna school projections and the boat floating above. (We visited when the ride first re-opened and the line was like 45 minutes so I got to enjoy the theming quite a bit).

I don't agree with your last statement at all. I don't think they designed the queues to cut corners by not putting in glass displays w/ intricate props. They don't just slap that rockwork up, it takes talent to design it and skill to implement it. Every part of it is designed and built; it's not as simplistic as you are implying.

 

[MrInfinity]

According to Wikipedia, BTMRR at Paris and Tokyo was built by Vekoma, Florida by California I by Arrow, Only the latest Disneyland retracking was done by Dynamic Structures. Arrow, or Vekoma probably only did the track work. The Mountain and themeing was probably done by someone else. So they are not copying Dynamic Structures BTMRR, they are advertising the BTMRR they built.

If you want to talk about early "copying" by Disney. Cedarpoint had Arrow build Cedar Creek Mine Ride in 1969 to years before Arrow build Big Thunder Mountain for Disneyland/Walt Disney World. It doesn't have the elaborate themeing but it's the same ride system.

Knotts Berry Farm in 1969 had Arrow Dynamic (coincidentally) build Timber Mountain Log Ride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xO0ooC9Ltw A highly themed log flume 20 years before Arrow Built the ride mechanism for Splash Mountain at Disneyland. What's funny is looking at Youtube videos, it's Knott's that's accused to copying Disney and not the other way around.

Neat.

Yeah by the time Splash Mountain was built, flume rides were everywhere. Reading the wiki article on Splash Mountain, it's interesting the drama it went thru. Overruns, conflict, drastic changes mid-production. So production challenges like this existed on most rides, not just ones today. Now we look back and the ride is there, we think it was all peachy to build, but it had its own share of drama.

 

[Laketravis]

My favorite queue just might be the Nemo ride. It's a shame there's never a line, because I love how it transports me to the beach, then under water, with the tuna school projections and the boat floating above. (We visited when the ride first re-opened and the line was like 45 minutes so I got to enjoy the theming quite a bit).

I almost mentioned the Nemo queue because I think it shares a lot of the same characteristics as 7DMT and Under the Sea but was executed better.

 

[Hokie2000]

Given these companies also produce a lot of the same track systems in use by (gasp!) Six Flags parks, and I only use those parks as an example because it's easy to verify they only cost $10-$12 million to construct with minimal if any theming, and given we now know that those same companies provide a lot of the same track concepts to Disney and that Disney adds their own distinctive elements to make it uniquely Disney, I still maintain that the core cost of $10-$12 million for the structural ride itself and another $25-$30 million for theming could produce as good or better a result than the hundreds of millions Disney has spent on the last few efforts. And a whole lot more $40 million dollar quality attractions can be built than $200-$400 million attractions.

Just sayin'

What gives? I thought the Disney company was full of money-grubbing penny pinchers!! Why in the world would they waste $170 - $375 million on attractions they could easily build better and cheaper? Or are they such buffoons that they would sacrifice their all-important profits to the altar of their own stupidity???

 

[Laketravis]

Why in the world would they waste $170 - $375 million on attractions they could easily build better and cheaper?

Unions? LOL!

Austin recently built a new public library; cost was over $120 million. The price tag was the center of controversy. Sure, it's nice - huge building with all kinds of fancy fixtures and granite and stainless steel just like you'd expect from some grand governmental construction project. But it's still just a library.

 

[Hokie2000]

Unions? LOL!

 

[Laketravis]

The more I think about your question, the more I think it deserves an answer.

Another controversial subject in Texas is how much school districts spend to build a new school. Some high school buildings were kissing $100 million.

People think that's outrageous. And yet, that's for an entire high school campus.

So how exactly does Disney manage to spend $170-$375 million on a single attraction?

 

[Hokie2000]

I almost mentioned the Nemo queue because I think it shares a lot of the same characteristics as 7DMT and Under the Sea but was executed better.

From what I remember of the Little Mermaid queue I agree that Nemo is better. IIRC, though, the Little Mermaid queue is really beautiful at night.

 

[Hokie2000]

The more I think about your question, the more I think it deserves an answer.

Another controversial subject in Texas is how much school districts spend to build a new school. Some high school buildings were kissing $100 million.

People think that's outrageous. And yet, that's for an entire high school campus.

So how exactly does Disney manage to spend $170-$375 million on a single attraction?

I honestly don't know. But I work in construction and it is often very surprising how much projects can cost. I forget what the exact figure is, but it's completely insane how much it costs to pave one mile of a four-lane road.

The numbers do seem high. I would love to see the cost breakdowns, I'm sure they would be very interesting.

 

[Laketravis]

I honestly don't know. But I work in construction and it is often very surprising how much projects can cost. I forget what the exact figure is, but it's completely insane how much it costs to pave one mile of a four-lane road.

The numbers do seem high. I would love to see the cost breakdowns, I'm sure they would be very interesting.

You just reminded me of another example that would probably make sense to you - I live near a toll road that took almost 5 years to build, it's a total of 12 lanes (6 tolled, 6 service roads) over 6 miles of concrete roadway, overpasses, drainage diversion, toll structures, etc. Including right-of-way purchases, it cost approximately $600 million to build.

Or the equivalent of two or three recent Disney attractions. So, yeah - why so much?