DVC Rental Cancellation/Insurance - Need Help!

[DVC Doctor]

Actually, I do. I would not want someone to bother me, so I wouldn't bother them. I have rented DVC points once, and got insurance. The heart of this debate is "are you going to impose on someone else with your problems that you could have insured yourself against, or do you feel that is an imposition?"

This is really getting a little bit out hand and you seem like a nice and reasonable person, but as they say "poo-poo"happens.

Travel insurance is complex, difficult to chose a policy, expensive, and there are a ton of things they do not cover. Besides, it is VERY hard to get your money from trip insurance as I had it once for a school trip and the paperwork was incredible and I gave up.

You have to realize the world is imperfect and random unplanned things happen (but that does not seem to apply to you) and why would you not want to help someone that rented DVC points from you for a trip 11 months in advance, paid in full with thousands of dollars, and is requesting a modification such as a change of date, or room size, or even location if it is available and it would only take one phone call or 5 minutes effort online. You have spent more time online arguing that you should not be burdened with someone else's problems that what it would take to make a change in an established reservation.

I hope you read ALL the documents for your health insurance (auto, disability, homeowners) as one day you may be in a situation where you need help and, according to you, you should may be denied help or coverage as your insurance may not cover something you assumed it would and that is will be your fault and you may die as a result of your own ignorance for not making sure 100% of everything unexpected will be covered.

What line of business are you in that you "can't be bothered by anyone" or can't help out someone make a modification or change from a product or service your business offers.

 

[Madame]

I applaud you for your dedication to teaching, however there is a HUGE difference between a student missing a homework assignment vs someone spending $$$ THOUSANDS of dollars on a DVC vacation, many times 11 months in advance of checkin, and then running into a situation where the reservation needs a modification and a broker REFUSING to allow any changes.

I am NOT suggesting giving them a free pass or give a full refund of their money back, I AM SIMPLY STATING THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING reasonable that the owner of the DVC contract that rented (sold) the points to a stranger can do to accommodate a change or modification. Maybe it is as simply as rebooking the same accomidation (2 bedroom SSR) one month later, perhaps it is more complex like changing from a 1 bedroom OKW to a 2 bedroom VGF (and requiring more points and money) or changing all the guests on the reservation.

The fact is that DVC allows changes and modifications and now we can do it online pretty easily. Why do people have such resistance to accommodating someone that got into a jam or had some unforseen change.

What this thread has opened my eyes is to how rigid some people are and how they only care about themselves and have no empathy towards anyone else or anyone they do business with and that is pretty sad.



I don't think anyone is spewing hatred, we just have a difference of opinion and in reality the haters are actually more correct than I am as they are going by the "rule of the contract" and the rule of "no changes allowed" and would probably win in court, however I am simply saying there should be some accommodations for people that need to cancel a valuable DVC reservation (possibly worth thousands of dollars) and at least, they should be able to re-use these points for a different reservation (according to DVC rules and availability) before they expire.

In no situation am I suggesting that a renter can cancel and get a full refund of their money, but if the points can be re-used or re-sold, then they should receive some credit and that is up to the DVC owners to determine what they think is fair to compensate for the extra effort to rebook.

They’re comparable in the sense that if you start allowing exceptions it will never be enough!

You’re right, money is so much more important than teaching our youth to be responsible and mature future adults that make good decisions and accept the consequences of their actions. Apparently the world will adjust to their crises and whims...

You’re right DVC allows changes, so perhaps those renters who wish changes can book through DVC & pay the going rate. According to you though they deserve a massive discount and the ability to cancel.... Sorry, not with my points. I’d be assigning them a grade of 0.

 

[ziravan]

I rent my points myself, never used a broker. My contract states that once bought, points belong to renter. It lists the shelf life of the points. I state that, within reason, I will try to move the trip dates within the shelf life of the points and subject to availability, but I won’t sublet; won’t significantly change the party (I would add or delete one or so, but not if I thought it was as part of a sublet).

I think my service is better than the brokers because I can afford, within reason, to be more flexible.

I will say that the only time I’ve been screwed on renting was by a renter that took excessive advantage of “within reason”. I was trying to be that “nice guy” that some here think everybody should be required to be, and I got burned. It was only a couple hundred bucks but the lesson took as a result. I’m bendable but no longer breakable.

Not everybody who wants an accommodation is going to burn you, but everybody who’s going to burn you wants an accommodation. Eliminate that 20% and you eliminate 80% of the problem renters. As I said, I’m willing to make a reasonable accommodation — on my maybe 3 reservations every other year. I just don’t know how that’s reasonable or possible in bulk.

If I were a broker, I’d stick with that contract. And if I were renting through a broker and they called me for an accommodation that was not part of MY contract with them: well that call wouldn’t go very well.

 

[ziravan]

My wife’s grandfather in his day bought land, divided it into acre sized lots and ran water and electricity to the “plat” and sold lots for mobile homes.

His deal was that he wouldn’t check your credit but in return for not holding your past against you, your future had better put him absolutely first in your pay deck. “Next to anything but eating, your roof is your most important priority. You keep your priorities in order and we’ll never have a problem.”

And he was the greatest guy to know and be around.

Unless you crossed him.

He would move your home to an impound yard off HIS property in a heartbeat if you decided that you needed to pay someone else more than him.

Everybody’s got a sob story to tell. But that don’t pay the bills.

The moral to this story? My paycheck pays the bills, DW’s inheritance pays for fun. We bought into DVC because her grandfather understood that your word was your word; or else his word would be his.

 

[DVC Doctor]

Not everybody who wants an accommodation is going to burn you, but everybody who’s going to burn you wants an accommodation.

If I were a broker, I’d stick with that contract. And if I were renting through a broker and they called me for an accommodation that was not part of MY contract with them: well that call wouldn’t go very well.

How can you get BURNED if you already got paid and your customer (client) is just asking for a modification to a reservation he already paid for. The renter would actually be willing to call themselves, but as you know only the owner of the points can call. Thus, the renter is HELPLESS and at the MERCY of the owner.

Why is it so difficult for people to be willing to help someone that is their customer make a change to a reservation they already paid for?

Everybody’s got a sob story to tell. But that don’t pay the bills.

This is an interesting (but totally irrelevant) story. The person renting points and requesting a change or modification ALREADY PAID THE BILL and is just asking for the owner to make ONE phone call to help make a change or modification.

Seriously, even your grandfather would think that is a reasonable request if it DID not cost him money - as this is just good customer service.

 

[ziravan]

How can you get BURNED if you already got paid and your customer (client) is just asking for a modification to a reservation he already paid for. The renter would actually be willing to call themselves, but as you know only the owner of the points can call. Thus, the renter is HELPLESS and at the MERCY of the owner.

Why is it so difficult for people to be willing to help someone that is their customer make a change to a reservation they already made?

I am willing. But I’m getting paid more for doing that extra work. Renting your own points means working your points.

For those without the initiative or desire to put in that work (time is money), there are brokers. But the brokers are selling owners convenience. It’s really all they have to sell to the owners. If you use a broker AND have to work your points, why have a middleman at all?

Without that convenience, the brokers don’t have a business model.

In return for that convenience to the owners, the brokers can give renters a fantastic deal. But it comes with the door price: the only reason the broker has points to rent is because he has offered a simple transaction to the owners.

This isn’t hard. The one enables the other. This idea that owners should be endlessly patient with brokers over their renters isn’t some moral quandary for the brokers; it would be the death of the broker business.

I take issue with the idea that the renter is some helpless bystander at the mercy of the owner. They could have booked CRO. They could have bought into DVC. They could have bought insurance. Instead, they made a measured calculation. If you measure the risks and the risks come back to bite you, that’s just not the definition of helpless and at the mercy. The renter was neither helpless nor at the mercy of the owner when the risks were calculated and the payment took that risk into factor. There were less risky alternatives at higher price at that time.

 

[ziravan]

This is an interesting (but totally irrelevant) story. The person renting points and requesting a change or modification ALREADY PAID THE BILL and is just asking for the owner to make ONE phone call to help make a change or modification.

Seriously, even your grandfather would think that is a reasonable request if it DID not cost him money - as this is just good customer service.

Except that the person renting the points was able to find a broker with points because an owner was being paid less than they could have made in return for not having to make that ONE phone call.

The renter did NOT pay the bill for the ability to make that ONE phone call. In fact, the whole point of being a renter is to get a discount from the ONE phone call rate (CRO).

The unavailability of that ONE phone call is priced into the transaction. Indeed, it’s an absolutely necessary element of the transaction. If any broker decided to tell their owners that we require you to make multiple accommodations after the fact, that broker is going out of business.

You think it’s only reasonable to help out the guy in a bind. But for the brokers, your definition of reasonableness would destroy their business. With good reason.

What do the brokers have to offer owners that they can’t get elsewhere except the absolute finality and convenience of the transaction?

As it is, they can’t find enough owners; it’s that lack of owners - not renters- that limits the business model. So, now they’re supposed to alter their business model to impose even more upon the owners that they do find?

I don’t find that to be very reasonable.

 

[Dean]

How can you get BURNED if you already got paid and your customer (client) is just asking for a modification to a reservation he already paid for. The renter would actually be willing to call themselves, but as you know only the owner of the points can call. Thus, the renter is HELPLESS and at the MERCY of the owner.

Why is it so difficult for people to be willing to help someone that is their customer make a change to a reservation they already paid for?



This is an interesting (but totally irrelevant) story. The person renting points and requesting a change or modification ALREADY PAID THE BILL and is just asking for the owner to make ONE phone call to help make a change or modification.

Seriously, even your grandfather would think that is a reasonable request if it DID not cost him money - as this is just good customer service.

As I've said, I this is something I would be willing to do within reason. But there is "cost" in at least 2 areas and for things you haven't been paid for. One is that literally time is money, esp when you're on hold waiting on MS. I personally would do things online or by email when possible but it's not always possible. The other issue is that as soon as you agree to try, a subset of those take it as a guarantee that you can accommodate them which often you can't make arrangements. Interestingly my personal experience is it's not the "renter" that's the issue, it's owners and other experienced timeshare owners. They not uncommonly want to negotiate that last penny, want to change 5 times, forget to send in payments, etc. That's part of the reason I argue against renters being the bad guys for damages and the like though there are all types within each group. As soon as you start trying to judge the merits of one story vs another, you've totally lost any semblance of control. The interesting thing is how to approach things like the resort is offline for damages (hurricane?) or for relocations for refurbishment or other similar issues. That's why I give those I rent to my cell phone number in case there are issues short notice or problems on arrival. Obviously one would have to handle those issues on a case by case basis. But the idea I should pay for ALL of their expenses if something happens is not one I'd agree with.

 

[crisi]

I was thinking about this today, essentially this is situational ethics which I don't subscribe to.

Not a big fan of them myself, if you couldn't tell over the past fifteen years.

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

Travel insurance is complex, difficult to chose a policy, expensive, and there are a ton of things they do not cover. Besides, it is VERY hard to get your money from trip insurance as I had it once for a school trip and the paperwork was incredible and I gave up.

This just isn't true. I get trip insurance for any trip I take where I have >$2k in prepaid accommodations and also for most of my Int'l trips. It's not rocket science. Most reputable insurance companies have pretty comprehensive websites that spell out the major covered/not covered incidents. And the two I've used have agents you can call and ask about specific things that are covered...and they can point you to the exact place in their contracts where it shows coverage. 20 minutes on Google will point just about anyone in the right direction. Worst case an insurance agent or travel agent can probably point you in the right direction. I've made two claims and the process took some time and documentation but that's insurance. If you have a valid claim with a reputable company you will get paid 99% of the time.

Sure, insurance adds a couple hundred bucks to some of my trips. But why shouldn't I bare the cost of protecting my investment?

I've never rented points nor rented out my points. If I did rent out my points I would probably be willing to work with a renter if an issue came up that didn't cost me money or took an egregious amount of my time. But I can see that not being as easy for a business like David's to do. Where does he draw the line on what constitutes an emergency/unforeseen circumstance? With the volume of rental transactions he makes it's probably just too much work for his business to offer exceptions. He could easily monetize a change policy but he doesn't. I'm assuming not capturing that potential added revenue is due to it not being worth it.

 

[crisi]

This is really getting a little bit out hand and you seem like a nice and reasonable person, but as they say "poo-poo"happens.

Travel insurance is complex, difficult to chose a policy, expensive, and there are a ton of things they do not cover. Besides, it is VERY hard to get your money from trip insurance as I had it once for a school trip and the paperwork was incredible and I gave up.

You have to realize the world is imperfect and random unplanned things happen (but that does not seem to apply to you) and why would you not want to help someone that rented DVC points from you for a trip 11 months in advance, paid in full with thousands of dollars, and is requesting a modification such as a change of date, or room size, or even location if it is available and it would only take one phone call or 5 minutes effort online. You have spent more time online arguing that you should not be burdened with someone else's problems that what it would take to make a change in an established reservation.

I hope you read ALL the documents for your health insurance (auto, disability, homeowners) as one day you may be in a situation where you need help and, according to you, you should may be denied help or coverage as your insurance may not cover something you assumed it would and that is will be your fault and you may die as a result of your own ignorance for not making sure 100% of everything unexpected will be covered.

What line of business are you in that you "can't be bothered by anyone" or can't help out someone make a modification or change from a product or service your business offers.

It does happen. But your poo-poo isn't my problem. I have enough problems in my life. Which is why when I rent points, I make the decision to rent through a company who makes sure your problems don't become my problems - or even my minor inconveniences.

I'm retired. I was an IT project manager and strategic consultant in my final job, and had to deal with far too many excuses. I've done lots of risk analysis. I've worked in health insurance and I've seen people denied coverage because it isn't covered, and in my experience, insurance companies aren't flexible about that. They sometimes don't pay when you ARE covered - which is why there are lawyers who specialize in getting insurance companies to pay (I've also worked in law firms....manufacturing....hotels....non profits....utilities).

And I LIKE arguing online. I don't like it when someone commits me to doing something I don't want to do, that I specifically chose a path to that would avoid that thing, and then calls me mean when I say I'm not going to do it.

 

[Bing Showei]

It boils down to what one's expectations are, entering into any arrangement. If both parties go into that arrangement with clear expectations on what a course of action will be, based on an explicit contract, in the event of the unforeseen, that contract will have served its purpose as intended.

My clients actually appreciate that I spend tens of thousands of dollars annually on legal fees that allow my legal to speak to their legal to spell out explicitly what expectations and assumptions are for both parties going in. If a client expects deliverables by X date and I feel that would come at a sacrifice to the end product, that conversation will be had prior to entering into that agreement. There is specific language that states any material changes will require a change order that may incur an additional cost depending on scope. This is in case s**t happens.

These contracts involve real people with lives that are affected by the terms. I recognize that, but it needs to be respected for what it is, a business transaction. It's not two people doing each other a favor. It's a service where one person, through a third party, has agreed to rent points to a renter that is non-negotiable.

I would posit that if David offered a "willing to make changes" category where the contract stipulates in clear terms that an owner would make changes, but that this option would be an additional $2/point off the bat, and $1/point for any changes, there are owners (some in this thread) who would not calculate that to be worth it. And others, like myself, who may be willing to do so. The difference being is that we would each have a clear understanding of expectations going into that arrangement.

I think the disconnect here is that this type of arrangement already exists, the terms are clear, but the argument seems to be that the arrangement should force a flexibility that was never part of my understanding, going in as an owner.

 

[crisi]

Here is the other problem with "it only takes a few minutes." I'm retired (or semi retired) and my husband still works and travels internationally for his job. I was just in a place without dependable connectivity for a week. I'll disappear from here for a week or two - no one will notice I'm gone.

When I rented my points the contract with David said I needed to be able to add Magical Express, a Dining Plan and add or change names (but not the primary name). As we were coming down to the deadline for those things, I was going to leave town, so I contacted David's staff, they reached out to the renter, confirmed that they didn't need those things, and I was good to go. But I'm not a travel agent. I'm not sitting here at my desk every day waiting for someone to tell me they need to sublet or try and switch dates. I may ignore all but the most important emails coming to me for two weeks at a time, and might only answer the phone when I know who is calling.

Emergencies are, by definition, unpredictable. I cannot set the expectation that I will try, because I might not even be available to be reached. And I can't try if I can't be reached. I would much rather have people enter into the arrangement with no expectation that I will even try, then be disappointed that I can't be reached, or be disappointed when trying brings up nothing. To me, it is far better for the reservation to be non-refundable up front, everyone knows what they are getting, rather than setting an expectation that I'll be able to make work something out. Right now, I have time to argue on the internet, when your problem arrives, I may be in Australia ignoring the virtual world in favor of that one.

A hotel reservation is a different thing. The hotel is staffed for changes and I'll pay a little extra on Expedia to get one that will allow a cancellation 24 hours before check in. But I pay more to do that so that the hotel has insurance against cancellations themselves. I'm not a hotel, I'm not a travel agent, I'm an individual DVC owner who leaves the country for two weeks at a time, packing touring into every waking moment, and doesn't check email during that time from you if you are not my mother, husband or children.

And that's one of the issues a broker has in working with owners. Lets say David just lists that reservation on his site - it would get snapped up in no time. But the owner needs to be the one to change the names on the reservation, David can't do that. If he can't get ahold of me, then the transaction cannot complete. That's a risky place for David to be - with one person having a reservation they don't want, and another with money down on that reservation, and no way to get that reservation moved for two or three weeks until they get a hold of the owner.

 

[Bing Showei]

This is really getting a little bit out hand and you seem like a nice and reasonable person, but as they say "poo-poo"happens.

Travel insurance is complex, difficult to chose a policy, expensive, and there are a ton of things they do not cover. Besides, it is VERY hard to get your money from trip insurance as I had it once for a school trip and the paperwork was incredible and I gave up.

You have to realize the world is imperfect and random unplanned things happen (but that does not seem to apply to you) and why would you not want to help someone that rented DVC points from you for a trip 11 months in advance, paid in full with thousands of dollars, and is requesting a modification such as a change of date, or room size, or even location if it is available and it would only take one phone call or 5 minutes effort online. You have spent more time online arguing that you should not be burdened with someone else's problems that what it would take to make a change in an established reservation.

I hope you read ALL the documents for your health insurance (auto, disability, homeowners) as one day you may be in a situation where you need help and, according to you, you should may be denied help or coverage as your insurance may not cover something you assumed it would and that is will be your fault and you may die as a result of your own ignorance for not making sure 100% of everything unexpected will be covered.

What line of business are you in that you "can't be bothered by anyone" or can't help out someone make a modification or change from a product or service your business offers.

I would gladly rent from you if I were to go the board route, by the way. This thread could probably serve as one of your references to potential renters.

You seem really thoughtful, and that if I were in a pinch you'd be human about it. That's a really decent thing to do. In doing so, I would of course assume all of the risk that comes from renting from a total stranger on a public forum where anonymity is baseline (Rented Points: Disappointed in Humanity). Some people may not want to assume that risk, so for the same cost as your points, they buy security in knowing that if an owner bails on them, David's will, in part, make them whole again.

I feel like renting to/from you though is very different from renting to/from David's. He's technically only a broker, but there's an insulation from risk there that I would be paying for as a renter. If the seller bails, I will at least get my money back (vacation ruined notwithstanding). And absent travel insurance, I'll assume the risk of having life happen on my side as well.

 

[crisi]

Whereas I'd never rent out points privately because I want a one and done (or as close to it as possible) transaction. If I couldn't use them and there were no brokers, I'd give them to friends - and at this point - very likely give them, not rent them. And be highly selective in which friends they were offered to. The whole reason I used a broker was that its one and done.

 

[Matty B13]

I've heard on other forum's and on facebook of people renting points during high request times and then trying to sublet the reservation out to another party for more money, then calling up the owner and saying that they couldn't make the reservation but they had a "friend" lined up to take over the reservation. So for this reason alone I would not be willing to change the names on a reservation or change a party substantially.

I also had a renter that cost me well over 4 hours of my life, to re-book a reservation for them because their schedule changed, because I wanted to be a nice guy. I'll never do that again.

 

[DVC Doctor]

This thread is WAY out of hand with people so rigid with refusing to offer basic customer service to someone that paid a significant amount of money to rent their extra points that I simply find it beyond description.

YES, there may be a contract and YOU GUYS WIN....you successfully beat up the little guy - now go see the Wizard of Oz and beg for him to give you a heart....but he may refuse as it is not in the contract.

But the truth is in the real world some nice family saved for months to afford a Disney vacation, decided to try to save on accommodations and rent points from an owner(or broker), booked 11 months in advance, paid in full, and then BAM...they hit a speed bump and need a reservation modification (it could be simply changing the date one month at the same resort and room type and cost) BUT the person they rented points from refused to help out as they got your money and really can't be bothered anymore. I would also bet these same people would freak out if they were facing the loss of thousands of dollars just because someone refused to call and make a change for them.

IMHO, people that rent DVC points RARELY make changes (less than 5%) and this thread is full of speculation with all sorts of stories of potential scammers. I never said to allow people unlimited changes for free or to cause the owner to lose money.

I am simply of the opinion that I provide excellent customer service to people that rent points from me and I can, and will, accommodate changes or modifications (as per DVC rules and availability) as I am really happy a total stranger is trusting me to help them plan a wonderful Disney trip and sending a considerable amount of money to someone they never met. Also, when I rent my points, I believe that I gave them my right to use my points in exchange for whatever I charged per point. Thus, they can cancel, rebook, change, let them expire, or give them to someone else. So far, in 15 or so years of owning DVC and renting on occasional years, it is still a relatively rare thing to make a change.

Also, I really do like Davids rental service as they have helped increase the rental rate from $9pp when I first joined to now $16pp and he has also increased the visibility of point rentals. However, I also feel that because of Davids refusal to make changes or modifications, it opens the door of opportunity for other brokers or regular DVC members like me to offer alternative services that David (and his clients) refuse to offer.

 

[crisi]

Why is he the little guy? What if I'm renting out my points because my brother in law is dying of terminal cancer (he did) and between work and two tweenage children and trips to the hospital I don't have the time it takes to check or the emotional energy for anything else? I need the money for the rental because I'm helping him cover his living expenses since he can't work and social security doesn't pay him enough (which I did). On top of that I'm working a job that is giving me anxiety attacks and expecting me to engage in unethical (and possibly illegal) behavior and am heavily medicated for those (I was). The money situation means that I'm not able to quit the hated job. My son starts acting out at school, and he's home suspended for days at a time (yep). My daughter is being bullied at school so badly that she changes for gym in the gym teachers office (that happened to). And all of this has come right after my own sister went through rehab three times and my other sister survived breast cancer (also true).

But I should waste emotional space and energy, plus time I don't have, on something that I decided up front I would choose a path that would not add anything at all to the crazy life I live.

We've had people here rent out points because a spouse died. Or because they lost their jobs and were struggling. This little inconvenience you are proposing may not be within the scope of what they are capable of emotionally or physically carrying out at a time where they are deciding that they don't even have the resources to vacation on their own points.

You are of the opinion that the renter is the customer. But from David's point of view, both the renter and the owner are the customer, and he must make both happy.

 

[southerngirl528]

Really surprised this thread is still going on since the OP just posted and left...... been interesting to read the various points of view though....

But from David's point of view, both the renter and the owner are the customer, and he must make both happy.

I must agree with this. I've only rented out my points once, and used a very reputable company. Carefully read through the contract before signing up, and found it to be very careful to protect BOTH me as the member and the potential renter.

 

[CarolMN]

One of the advantages of renting from an individual is the opportunity to negotiate terms. One of the advantages of going through a broker is decreased risk (but not no risk). Each individual must weigh the pros and cons to choose the best option for his/ her situation. Careful attention to the contract is the place to start!

I would never advise anyone to count on even a flexible owner to bail them out when things happen that prevent taking the trip as planned. If one cannot afford to lose their money should that happen, they need to protect themselves by purchasing travel insurance or forego renting.