DVC must stop rentals.....

[xdan0920]

I currently have 16 booked and not one is a rental.

I’d like to circle back to this in a few months. How many will you use?

 

[DVC Doctor]

They would find them in violation of the contract and I believe lock the account for use until it’s settled.

Reservations will be canceled.

I doubt Disney would do that, and not sure it is even legal as the definition of commercial renting is not clearly spelled out. Perhaps this is just a scare tactic to try to get the members in line. Has anyone ever documented a situation where Disney locked a "paid in full" account just because they were renting. I am not defending commercial renters, I just am curious if anyone has been locked, and what was the result.

DVC won't try to eliminate or curtail renting of DVC points until it starts to impact their bottom line in competing with their own rentals. So far the secondary rental market is pretty small when compared to what DVC is renting.

^^^ that is the most logical explanation

Some history:

A long time ago (but still in a nearby galaxy) , renting was way out of control. At that time, transfers were unlimited and DVC had no system to easily track them. Transferred points "morphed" into the home resort of the contract into which they were received. Some Members bought small contracts of the popular, near-park resorts and then transferred in cheap points from larger resorts. Some even bragged about it. A lot of those points were used during the home resort priority period for rentals. (This eventually resulted in the "one transfer rule").

DVC eventually decided that 20 or more reservations in a 12-month period was probably commercial renting and notified some members via letter that their accounts were subject to audit. We don't really know what happened to those members, but several did say they were selling their contracts, and a lot of the "prolific" renters disappeared. AFAIK, none of them challenged DVC's actions (whatever they were or whatever they threatened).

Quite a few of those folks were spec renters, and their behavior generated a lot of "rental hate" here on the DIS. It's dissipated quite a bit since then, but is still very unpopular. The subject of renting comes up every so often and generates lots of posts every time. But there are never opinions that haven't been posted before - many times.

Interesting, well with any new business there are people that find loopholes and even today on flyertalk, people stalk airline and credit card websites for opportunities to game the system. I am not in favor of the one transfer rule, and the better approach would have been to fix the morphing of points, but I rarely transfer, so to me it is not a big deal. But DVC took the easy path to fix a problem with this approach.

I appreciate your long time perspective, but even you don't know if Disney truly froze or delete an account just for renting, so it will remain a mystery.

For the record, I am not a fan or spec renting or even buying contracts with the sole intention of renting, but do agree that owners should have flexability to do with their points how they see fit, as long as we all are following the same rules.

Perhaps Disney will crack down on "walking" reservations as I find that ridiculous and never have the patience to do that, but understand why people feel they "need" to do it to get popular dates.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

Would a 1 name change/year rule work? That would cut down on the number of spec rentals but still allow people whose plans truly change to not lose points. They could also combine this with something like a tiering system whereby you can only name change the “good” weeks once every 2-3 years.

Also no name changes on reservations that are more than 4 months out (because that would be inside the banking window).

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

Heck, you could even be able to define your family such that you can name change across these 4(?) people always without issue.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

None of this would apply to a second reservation while a member is present or a split stay. But I’m thinking specifically about the people that book Christmas trips and sell them.

Though I guess then the spec person would just book their own trip too, though that would eat into their profit margins.

 

[Brian Noble]

If Disney wants to buy back a commercial renter contracts at full value ($200pp or more) then that is reasonable, but if they shut an owner down and says we will give you $100pp or simply stops them from allowing other people to use their points, then I am not sure what the law would say about that.

The idea that Disney would offer retail pricing to buy out someone is ludicrous. Will not happen. I can't say what they would do, but I can tell you what Wyndham did, and it was this:

They would find them in violation of the contract and I believe lock the account for use until it’s settled.

I doubt Disney would do that, and not sure it is even legal as the definition of commercial renting is not clearly spelled out.

I don't think this is a basis for not doing it, as the POS was amended with this "clarification" in 2014:

Commercial Use Policy. The Disney Vacation Club (DVC) Public Offering Statement makes it clear that DVC memberships are intended for personal vacation use. The Declaration of Condominium and the Membership Agreement for the Resort expressly limits the use of Ownership Interests to personal use and prohibits use for “commercial purposes,” – a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board of the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or activity.

So, as long as Disney is using "reasonable discretion" they have a decent chance of prevailing. Even if they are not ultimately "reasonable" they could still decide to play hardball. You might ultimately win after a protracted (and expensive) court fight, but what individual is going to take on that kind of risk in a situation in which the table is already tilted in Disney's favor?

I know people don't want to think Disney will do anything to curb their rental activity. But, if I were in a situation where the ability to rent was an important part of my DVC ownership's viability, I'd have an exit path in mind, and I'd do so ASAP.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I currently have 16 booked and not one is a rental.

They could fix it by limiting it 10 *where the owner(s) is/are not part of the rental*. I assume that you are on the majority of your 16 reservations? I mean that’s basically a less severe version of what Club Wyndham did.

 

[DVC Doctor]

I know people don't want to think Disney will do anything to curb their rental activity. But, if I were in a situation where the ability to rent was an important part of my DVC ownership's viability, I'd have an exit path in mind, and I'd do so ASAP.

Well, again, this is all speculation and I am not disagreeing with you, but is there any PROOF that Disney cracked down on one or more commercial renters and what was the results of that crackdown (freeze account, force to sell, force to buyout, force to use their own points)

 

[robinb]

I believe they used a lottery system for 11 month bookings during some peak demand dates like New Year's Eve. If that's what you're referring to.

We bought BWV after they stopped the NYE lottery. We wanted to stay there for NYE most years and couldn’t unless we owned there.

 

[Brian Noble]

Do I personally have proof? No. Would I have an exit strategy if I relied on rental income to keep my ownership? You bet your last Mickeybar.

 

[robinb]

Frankly, i think this whole thread is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Alicia22]

I’d like to circle back to this in a few months. How many will you use?

She has already stated she will not use all of them. She loads up on reservations until she figures out which ones she needs, at which point she cancels.

 

[Sandisw]

I’d like to circle back to this in a few months. How many will you use?

At least 10. I’ll be booking 3 more for April this week too as don’t know if we are doing March or April next year..or both.

To clarify, some of these are just two night trips because we split stay a lot.

Again, we book a lot of shorter but frequent trips and my adult children go yearly as well..and then really good friends.

About 6 are duplicate nights that will get canceled if I end up solo or the group doesn’t end up as large as it could.

 

[Sandisw]

They could fix it by limiting it 10 *where the owner(s) is/are not part of the rental*. I assume that you are on the majority of your 16 reservations? I mean that’s basically a less severe version of what Club Wyndham did.

I am on half. The ones that overlap dates have other peoples names on as place holders.

 

[Sandisw]

She has already stated she will not use all of them. She loads up on reservations until she figures out which ones she needs, at which point she cancels.

Yes, I book trips for times we may decide to go at 11 months and then as people decide closer to the trip I cancel or adjust.

Not saying this to upset others but to show that someone like me, retried now and traveling about 6 times a year myself plus times my family or friends go without me, I hit much more than 10 at one time.

It’s why I have 900 points and 3 UYs.
Just today, a good friend planned a last minute end of June trip and I snagged her one night.

 

[Sandisw]

I doubt Disney would do that, and not sure it is even legal as the definition of commercial renting is not clearly spelled out. Perhaps this is just a scare tactic to try to get the members in line. Has anyone ever documented a situation where Disney locked a "paid in full" account just because they were renting. I am not defending commercial renters, I just am curious if anyone has been locked, and what was the result.



^^^ that is the most logical explanation



Interesting, well with any new business there are people that find loopholes and even today on flyertalk, people stalk airline and credit card websites for opportunities to game the system. I am not in favor of the one transfer rule, and the better approach would have been to fix the morphing of points, but I rarely transfer, so to me it is not a big deal. But DVC took the easy path to fix a problem with this approach.

I appreciate your long time perspective, but even you don't know if Disney truly froze or delete an account just for renting, so it will remain a mystery.

For the record, I am not a fan or spec renting or even buying contracts with the sole intention of renting, but do agree that owners should have flexability to do with their points how they see fit, as long as we all are following the same rules.

Perhaps Disney will crack down on "walking" reservations as I find that ridiculous and never have the patience to do that, but understand why people feel they "need" to do it to get popular dates.

There are specific things spelled out that define it in the POS. So yes, they have some grounds for it. For example, if an individual set up a website to offer their own points for rentals, it’s expressly prohibited and states it.

They can definitely freeze accounts if there is an issue. Now I have never personally heard of it and partly because I don’t think there are that many owners who are doing it to the degree that we hear about it.

And, some memberships, like mine have multiple owners since I added my adult kids too.

 

[Sandisw]

Would a 1 name change/year rule work? That would cut down on the number of spec rentals but still allow people whose plans truly change to not lose points. They could also combine this with something like a tiering system whereby you can only name change the “good” weeks once every 2-3 years.

Also no name changes on reservations that are more than 4 months out (because that would be inside the banking window).

That then changes the whole nature of the program for owners for personal use.

The POS allows you to have guests, allows you to rent, allows name changes and allows for personal use. The only penalties are holding for cancel or changes for less within 31 days.

Unfortunately there will always be those people who spec rent or find a way to rent a lot of trips within in a year. But I still believe that 95% of the over 200k owners use it for themselves, families and friends.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

That then changes the whole nature of the program for owners for personal use.

The POS allows you to have guests, allows you to rent, allows name changes and allows for personal use. The only penalties are holding for cancel or changes for less within 31 days.

Unfortunately there will always be those people who spec rent or find a way to rent a lot of trips within in a year. But I still believe that 95% of the over 200k owners use it for themselves, families and friends.

I guess I'm trying to figure out a way to ensure true personal use continues IF Disney wants to cut down on spec rentals. I'm certainly not proposing that you can't have guests when you travel or book trips for friends if you aren't around. But booking as many studios as you can for Christmas/Thanksgiving/Easter and then renting them at the equivalent of $35/point (or whatever the math is) isn't in the spirit of the program.

I don't have a dog in this fight personally. We don't rent our points and beyond the weird thing going on with cabin availability in January we can usually book what we want thanks to my mom being super vigilant about Disney dates. I was just curious about what would be acceptable to the board.

 

[Sandisw]

I guess I'm trying to figure out a way to ensure true personal use continues IF Disney wants to cut down on spec rentals. I'm certainly not proposing that you can't have guests when you travel or book trips for friends if you aren't around. But booking as many studios as you can for Christmas/Thanksgiving/Easter and then renting them at the equivalent of $35/point (or whatever the math is) isn't in the spirit of the program.

I don't have a dog in this fight personally. We don't rent our points and beyond the weird thing going on with cabin availability in January we can usually book what we want thanks to my mom being super vigilant about Disney dates. I was just curious about what would be acceptable to the board.

My only other comment is I just don’t think things need to be put in place to prove personal use is being done.

Its about the product we all bought and other than commercial renting, which is defined by DVC, the rest is what makes it such a nice timeshare to have because it offers so much flexibility.

I don’t rent either, but I do have a lot of points and have lots of reservations

 

[RoseGold]

My party and I are pretty much finalized for summer, and that trip alone is 6 reservations, because of all the split stay.