"Disney doesn't know if it's child or adult credit"

[bicker]

My only point was that if Disney thought they were losing money they would change it.

Along the same lines as what pedro2112 just said: It isn't a matter of Disney losing money or not, but rather whether Disney would make MORE money structuring the plan a different way.

 

[Pedler]

However, this argument is unfounded. With respect to other issues (parking at DTD for free and using the disney transport to parks), yes - it has caused changes to the "detriment" of everyone. However, in this particular case, if Disney feels that they need to change the plan to prevent this, then they will begin to differentiate between child and adult credits. The only "negative" effect of this is that people will be prevented from doing what some people have a problem with... using TS credits for adult meals instead of a child's meal. It will only effect the "negative" behavior.

pedro2112,

You make two excellent points. (This post and your other one.) First the only real negative to this use of credits is that they start to differentiate between them.

Second there is no case where a CM should not let you pay out of pocket for part of the meals. In our case we did do 8 TS meals on a 7 night stay. We were going to pay out of pocket for some food. We should be allowed to choose what meals we pay OOP for. For example back before CRT changed it was $4.95 for the kids meal. It would make perfect sense to pay OOP for that one and use a TS credit for CP or somewhere else. If a CM were to not let us pay OOP then I would politely ask for the manager to correct the situation. No where does it say everyone sitting at your table has to purchase a meal using a dinning plan credit.

I do get amazed at the people that think using credits in the manner will have some signifigant negative impact on them. I have yet to see any specifically defined scenario using $$ where that would happen.

 

[Pedler]

Along the same lines as what pedro2112 just said: It isn't a matter of Disney losing money or not, but rather whether Disney would make MORE money structuring the plan a different way.

I would just add more money across the entire operation, not just dinning. Disney has done a great job of integrating the different areas in a coordinated effort to maximize profits.

If anyone wants to take a look at a company that has done, or tried to do, the exact opposite just check out Sony. They continue to let different divisions hold each other back at the expense of the profitability of the entire company. The recently delayed PS3 launch is just another example of the many failures they have had recently by not taking an integrated approach.

 

[Boston5602]

And people have reported running into CMs that won't allow it. If four of you dine, and you have 2A2C on your card, and you try and pay OOP for the two kids, they won't let you. It seems to be an exception that you run into a CM who does this, but as CMs have a lot of leeway in doing their job, who is to say what the exception is - are the CMs who allow it spreading pixie dust or the CMs who don't being overly strict in application.

If a CM told me I could not pay OOP I would ask to see a manager and explain to them why I'm paying OOP , and here's why.......

Family of four ( 2 40 y/o a 10 y/o and 8 y/o ) goes for 7 nights you get 1 ts credit for each family member for each night , right , thats 28 TS Credits 21 adults 7 childs . now we are eating at a TS for 6 nights and Hoop Dee DOO 1 night HDD cost 2 ts's each that means somewhere along the other table service meals you have to pay out of pocket and since I paid for each and every credit I'll use them when I see fit . ( for us that doesn't mean a child credit used by an adult ) This means if we go to Prime Time and I'm getting just a salad because I dont like anything else ( I love Prime Time ) I'm not wasting the credit here I'll pay cash and another night if child wants to have soup at Whispering Canyon I'll pay cash for this and save the credits for the Hoop Dee Doo.


I hope I'm getting my thoughts typed out like they are in my head.

 

[PreppyPolyMom]

Its an ROI calculation.

Disney simply takes some time to track - manually even - the number of people doing this and the lost revenue incurred. They already probably know how much it would cost to make the system change that would allow it. When they can get ROI on the system change, they will do it.

Which is another way of agreeing with Bricker, if too many people do it, it will stop. In the meantime, it is a legitimate loophole that you may use if you find such a thing ethical (I don't, but different people have different ethics and I'm not judging anyone who does). Its not relevant how much more money the dining plan is bringing in, because it isn't the loophole in the dining plan that is bringing in people, its the plan itself (and other changes Disney has made to take Universal's market share).

And people have reported running into CMs that won't allow it. If four of you dine, and you have 2A2C on your card, and you try and pay OOP for the two kids, they won't let you. It seems to be an exception that you run into a CM who does this, but as CMs have a lot of leeway in doing their job, who is to say what the exception is - are the CMs who allow it spreading pixie dust or the CMs who don't being overly strict in application.

When I called Disney yesterday the CM on the phone said you certinly could pay OOP if you would like and use your DDP.

 

[Lewisc]

However, this argument is unfounded. With respect to other issues (parking at DTD for free and using the disney transport to parks), yes - it has caused changes to the "detriment" of everyone. However, in this particular case, if Disney feels that they need to change the plan to prevent this, then they will begin to differentiate between child and adult credits.

It's also possible Disney will just gut the meal plan, the prior meal plan became nothing more than a pre-paid discount.

Second there is no case where a CM should not let you pay out of pocket for part of the meals.

Actually the brochure says

for a signature meal your server will redeem (2) Table Service credits for each person dining...

At least for a signature meal and for dinner shows the server could insist on a family either paying out of pocket for everyone or using the dining plan for everyone. Actually it says the same thing for character dining,

your server will redeem (1) Table Service meal for each person participating in the character dining experience.

Guests who rely on the exact wording of the plan in order to use credits, paid for at the child rate to order adult meals really don't have grounds to complain when/if Disney decides to enforce other terms of the plan exactly.

My opinion is the lack of credit differentiation was intended as a courtesy to families in which kids skipped meals. I have my doubts if Disney intended guests to use computer models to ensure that no credits be wasted by using them to purchase child meals.

 

[Pedler]

It's also possible Disney will just gut the meal plan, the prior meal plan became nothing more than a pre-paid discount.

LewisC,

Did the prior meal plans have all the strings attached that the current one does? Things like you have to get it for length of stay, for everyone on the reservation and get at least one day park ticket (DVC excluded)? I am just curious as to the evolution of the dinning plan.

 

[bicker]

I believe previous programs may have been as generous as today's Dining Plan, if not more so, but included a lot more (more food and/or more TS meals and/or more signature meals), and therefore, even more so, included far more than most folks would typically pay for OOP, and therefore had a higher price than most guests would be able to stomach.

 

[Lewisc]

LewisC,

Did the prior meal plans have all the strings attached that the current one does? Things like you have to get it for length of stay, for everyone on the reservation and get at least one day park ticket (DVC excluded)? I am just curious as to the evolution of the dinning plan.

My memory is it was more restricted. Pretty sure you had to purchase length of stay passes, which expire when you check out. Bicker is right, It was expensive by the time you paid for the passes, undiscounted hotel room and the cost of the plan for everyone in your party. The people who bought it tended to max it out, expensive entrees at expennsive restaurants, so the plan was "gutted"

The present plan is priced cheap enough so even if you order the less expensive entrees at the less expensive restaurants you still beak even.

 

[jonkatony]

Quote from Pedler
I do get amazed at the people that think using credits in the manner will have some signifigant negative impact on them. I have yet to see any specifically defined scenario using $$ where that would happen.

Any product you buy will have direct and indirect costs applied to the selling price. The indirect costs of say credit card fraud, shoplifting etc are all passed on to the consumer. These are all extreme examples and in my opinion do not reflect in any way what is going on with the use of the dining plan and you are right they would not have a significant impact on us all, but we are all picking up the bill.

 

[Pedler]

Any product you buy will have direct and indirect costs applied to the selling price. The indirect costs of say credit card fraud, shoplifting etc are all passed on to the consumer. These are all extreme examples and in my opinion do not reflect in any way what is going on with the use of the dining plan and you are right they would not have a significant impact on us all, but we are all picking up the bill.

You are right, it will have some effect. My guess is that based on my previous examples it would add no more than $1 to the cost per day of dinning. Of course that would mean a higher than I think use of credits in this manner. Compared to the total cost of a day at Disney the potential impact is negligible. So yes, technically it has an effect in real measurable terms it has no impact. And even then a $1 day per person is an extreme example.

 

[Pedler]

My memory is it was more restricted. Pretty sure you had to purchase length of stay passes, which expire when you check out. Bicker is right, It was expensive by the time you paid for the passes, undiscounted hotel room and the cost of the plan for everyone in your party. The people who bought it tended to max it out, expensive entrees at expennsive restaurants, so the plan was "gutted"

The present plan is priced cheap enough so even if you order the less expensive entrees at the less expensive restaurants you still beak even.

When you say the plan was gutted what changes did they make?

 

[Nancyg56]

I have two thoughts on this and I apologize up front for the long posting but this doesn't lend itself to simple math.

My First thought is not many people are doing this. I think you greatly over estimate the use of the plan in this manner. No offense to the folk here at the DIS but on any given day I would estimate that people that frequent the DIS make up less than 1% of the visitors to WDW. I would guess that out of the DIS maybe 5%, and that would be a high number, use the Dinning plan and do the whole credit pooling thing. Then they most likely don't use it in that manner every day. So that the in the know WDW visitors about credit pooling are 1% and that 5% of them do it for half of the meals. We are talking about 0.025 percent. That is 2.5 visitors out of 10,000. So say there are 100,000 in a day and 25 people engage in this behavior. Those 25 folks saved maybe $40 on the meal whose incremental cost, i.e. food cost, was probably less than $15. That would be a total loss of $375 per day. I admit my numbers are purely speculative and have not much basis in fact except that the people in the know are really a small percentage and of those an even smaller percentage would do this. I just can't see the cost getting that high.

My second thought is along the lines of lets assume everyone is doing this and lets put it in context of the overall marketing scheme. Here I will use some real numbers from our family. Our initial plan for our trip last year was to stay off site at the Nick Hotel, rent a car, go to WDW 4-5 days and maybe spend a day at Universal or just hang out at the hotel. The Nick Hotel is more in lines with the type of space we like to stay in and I really wasn't that interested in staying on site. Under the initial plan our budget for money spent at WDW was somewhere in the $1,000 - 1,200 range. Maybe we would have 1 character meal and another sit down meal. Definitely CS meals at the parks. Then along comes the Magical Express, MYW Ticket Pricing where an extra day only cost $4 total for a family of 4 and the dinning plan. The dinning plan and the Magical Express changed our minds and we decided to stay on site at WL. So instead of WDW getting $1,200 of our money they got somewhere between $2,700 - 3,000. They litterally got every dollar we spent in Floriday except for lunch at the airport on departure day. Heck the gift shop / pin stand at WL got over $200. (I still don't know how that happend? ) And yes, we did use 4 "child" credits and got a signature meal at Artist Point, savings after paying for 2 of the kids meals somewhere around $60. Assuming that $60 is direct cost right out of Disney's pocket they essentaily traded $60 for an additional $1,500 to $1,800 in revenue. $1,400 of that was for the WL for a room that otherwise would have been empty. Somehow I think the cost accountants at Disney would love to give us $60 in food revenue to get an additional $1,800 in total spending while at the same time draining cash away from other Orlando attractions.

I think we should make no mistake. The Magical Express, which is free for for the next several years, and the Dinning plan are filling rooms at the resorts, keeping people on site and increasing the per capita spending at WDW. I know with our trip next year the only reason we will be staying on site instead of staying off site is because of the dinning plan and ME.

For those that still find it unbelievable that Disney would ever be OK with people using a credit purchased at the rate of $12 for an adult that should have paid $38, a savings of $26, could you explain why Disney provides transportation worth over $100 for free to a family of 4? The initial theory was to drive out competitors then raise the prices. Of course that theory has proven to be false as ME has been extended and is still free.

ITA. Disney employs IT wizards who could change the way the plan is used it was not working in the manner that was acceptable to Disney. The marketing team must be getting huge bonuses on this one, because it seems to be a money maker for Disney. I can only speak for my family, but we spent a fortune because of the DDP. We stayed onsite, because of the bargain and the convenience the plan afforded us. We used our credits for the little one on her except at CG, where the waiter suggested that we pay OOP for her meal. We then purchased a nice bottle of wine with dinner. We invited family in the area to join us for dinner several times, and we paid for their meals, and for any cocktails that they enjoyed. We were onsite so the extra meals were onsite. You see, we used ME, so we did not rent a car. Trapped in a way. We also planned extra meals, we were way over our TS, and this was on Disney property. I think that every restaurant spills out into a gift shop. Big $$$$$$$$$$ there.

I don't care how anyone uses the plan. It really is a lot of work to try to "take advantage" of it, and I think most people use it in a way that makes money for the Disney company. I know that we did. If the marketing strategy was not working in favor of Disney it would change. If this plan, encourages people to spend their money at Disney, and not in the Orlando area, it is a winner.

 

[Cinderpals]

Hi,

I purchased the plan for my daughter and myself last trip 5N. We arrived 4 days before my son and husband. They were not on the plan, but when we went to Ohanas on the 5th night, the waitress charged my son, husband and my meal to the Disney plan using it up, then charged cash for my daughter's meal. It took me a while to figure this out..duh!! I did, and was going to have it corrected, but it took soooo long to get her to come back that we just left it like that and gave her a great tip!

I just give the server my card and let them work it. That was unusual since we had two seperate ressies (studio moved to 1 bdrm) that we were able to purchase the meal plan only for my daughter and myself.

We only have one child under age 9. She rarely eats anything at a character meal, but we would have to pay for her plan for the whole length of our stay. It's worth it for my son (eats a ton!) my husband and myself. We've also left a ton of credits on other trips. Disney still has a lot of our $$$--it's never the other way around!

 

[mickman1962]

Disney expects that 99.9% of it's customers will do what's right and are willing to accept that 0.1% will not. You will never change the mindset of the 0.1% that what they are doing is improper. This includes meal plans, reusing mugs, packing pool towels in their luggage etc.

 

[jonkatony]

The Dining plan is a excellent product. Agreed
Disney makes money from it. Agreed
Disney does not make any substancal losses from adults using credits bought for children. Agreed

Its ok to use childs ticket to buy an adults meal. I am sorry I still do not get this, because Disney have decided not to do anything, does this give people a mandate to manipulate the system to suit themselves?

Please this is not a moral issue, just convince me so I can leave these threads never to return.

 

[Lewisc]

I don't travel with children so I'm not benefiting from Disney's generosity. Most resorts have signs limiting mug refills to your existing stay in that resort. The wording is actually on some of the mugs.

The difference is guests using the meal plan are using it exactly as it's described in the brochure and exactly how CMs explain it.

because Disney have decided not to do anything, does this give people a mandate to manipulate the system to suit themselves?

I think guests who plan on using all of the credits paid for at the child rate to purchase adult meals, who go so far as to say they won't waste a TS credit on a child meal, are being greedy but not immoral.

Now guests who want to purchase adult CS meals and go to two different CMs to circumvent enforcement of the child must order a child meal rule are cheating.

I'll speculate that the plan was set up the way it is to accomodate children who skip meals. The way the brochure is worded Disney has the right to charge TS credits for all guests in character, signature and dinner show meals. In other words they have the right to stop guests from paying out of pocket for just the kids meals.

Disney expects that 99.9% of it's customers will do what's right and are willing to accept that 0.1% will not. You will never change the mindset of the 0.1% that what they are doing is improper. This includes meal plans, reusing mugs, packing pool towels in their luggage etc.

 

[PIXARFREAK]

When my family goes in September, it will be 2 Adults & 1 child and 1 non paying child. Ironically, the non paying child can eat the 1 child under the table, no pun. But I also know that neither child will eat exceptionally well while on vacation (heat & excitement).

While some may considering it 'stealing', I find it to be a waste of food, which could be viewed as money loss for the company. So use the plan as it is intended or be a little smarter and order that which you can eat, including your child's meals.

 

[Pedler]

Disney expects that 99.9% of it's customers will do what's right and are willing to accept that 0.1% will not. You will never change the mindset of the 0.1% that what they are doing is improper. This includes meal plans, reusing mugs, packing pool towels in their luggage etc.

What, we can't take the pool towels back home with us? Bummer.

Seriously, Have you heard back from Disney on the letter you wrote asking for guidence on the use of credits? So far it appears to be unaminous that Disney not only allows but actively encourages the use of the plan in this manner. Since the vendor, i.e. Disney, encourages the use of the plan in this manner I don't see it as improper.

That is unless you feel that it is improper of Disney to allow people to use the plan in this fashion and that you have made up a different set of rules that exceed the ones that Disney has because you feel that Disneys rules are inadequate.

Now before you start going on about it can't be this way, common sense wouldn't let you use the plan in this manner, take a look at the wording and then the implementation and comments made by managers at the restaurants. The wording is ambigous at best on sharing credits. The implementation of the plan and comments made by managers, not your garden variety CM's, all demonstate that it is OK by Disney to use the plan in this manner.

We can all debate if people doing this are greedy or this is a sign of the collapse of western civilization but I do think that without a doubt that it well within the rules to use the plan in this manner and as far as Disney is concerned it is a proper use of the plan. And I don't feel this is some case of abstract morality where I am letting another entity define my morality. In this case if the party that is impacted by the use, Disney, encourages the use then there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Pedler]

The Dining plan is a excellent product. Agreed
Disney makes money from it. Agreed
Disney does not make any substancal losses from adults using credits bought for children. Agreed

Its ok to use childs ticket to buy an adults meal. I am sorry I still do not get this, because Disney have decided not to do anything, does this give people a mandate to manipulate the system to suit themselves?

Please this is not a moral issue, just convince me so I can leave these threads never to return.

I am not sure what would convince you but here are a few facts that you should consider:

Fact: The plan pools credits and lets you use them pretty much in any manner possible.

Fact: Disney management at restaurants not only condones this but has at times encouraged people to use credits in this manner. See the posts above that reference this.

Fact: To date no one has produced evidence from a credible source refuting the use of the plan in this manner. At best it has been off hand comments form CM's and if we were to believe everything CM's have said we would be ridding the monorail to the 5th theme park by now.

Fact: Disney has had more than enough time to make any changes that they would want to make to the plan. It has now been 1 year and 4 months since this version of the plan was introduced. The most serious flurry of use of credits in this manner along with outright fraud from phantom children came during the free dinning promo last year. If they had a problem with it they could have changed it by now. Instead they are running the same promotion again.

Opinion: While in the dark of the night I am sure that the marketeers at Disney would love to increase the price for everything in the parks and close any pricing variations at all they are smart enough to take a look at the big picture.

Opinion: Most of the folks that look at this in absolute terms that there is no way Disney could every allow someone to use a credit purchased for $12.00 to get food that would have cost $38.00 for the credit are only looking at food cost in the vacum and not the entire scope of all the changes made at the same time. Using that logic taking the ME is immorral because there is no way that Disney could want to provide transportation that should cost $25 or more per head for free regardless of what Disney says. Of course that logic is absurd when applied to ME. ME does a lot for Disney and they are willing to pay to keep guests on site. The same can be said of the dinning plan but those that oppose it in absolute terms can't seem to get beyond the food part of the plan.

You need to make your own decision but at least do it with the facts.