Covid And The Rest of Us

[Pink Partridge]

Good gravy - we have got a BIG mess on our hands here in Canada resulting from politicians taking vacations abroad over the holidays. The news has reported many of them from all over the country at every level and of every political stripe. There is outrage from the public and they are either resigning or being removed from their posts in droves.

Unlike many others who are pretty straight-forward in their opinions, I'm torn on this. On the one hand, there's the point that elected officials should hold themselves to a higher standard than the restrictions they mandate for the populous. I certainly don't disagree with that. On the other hand, it is not legally prohibited to travel outside Canada, as long as quarantine requirements are observed upon re-entry. Although I can't really go anywhere myself, many Canadians have travelled or plan to, including many DIS'ers as has been discussed on this and other boards. They/I would certainly not want to be sanctioned when they are not doing anything wrong.

Personally, I would be far more incensed if an official was caught in non-compliance such as gathering in a home for Christmas or not wearing a mask or distancing properly. If they were doing things the rest of us are not permitted to do, it would be way more clear-cut for me. I know the issue has been encountered in other countries - what are your opinions?

I can see how you are torn. Me too, but only because it depends on the situation.

As long as they aren't telling everyone else to stay home, I feel they should be able to travel anywhere that is legal to travel (as long as they follow proper protocol when they return).

But the politicians that go on TV and demand others stay home, and then sneak on a plane to go on vacation? They should lose their job.

 

[Karin1984]

I find it interesting that the Pfizer vaccine, even though it was the first one ready to go, will end up with a smaller piece of the action than the others, due to the transport/storage issues. Here in Canada most of ours will end up being Moderna. I wonder why, if the others solved the extreme temperature issue, Pfizer couldn't do the same?

I think they were so focussed on being the first, that they forgot about the practicality, that the vaccin also needs to go to other places.
In theory Pfizer is great, in reality, a little less great.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I mentioned this on another thread but thought it would be good information here too with how another country is working through their vaccines:

In Indonesia they are vaccinating their working force first and the ages given were 18-59. In the article they mentioned they weren't 'bucking the trend' (speaking towards the U.S. and others who are concentrating on elderly first) but that in their country there wasn't enough vaccine data on the efficacy of the vaccine on the elderly; for context their vaccine being used is from China (Sinovac).

Discussed in the article was

• "I don’t think anybody can get too dogmatic about what is the right approach,” said Peter Collignon, professor of infectious diseases at Australian National University, adding that Indonesia’s strategy could slow the spread of the disease, although it may not affect mortality rates.
• Indonesia doing it different to the U.S. and Europe is of value, because it will tell us (whether) you’ll see a more dramatic effect in Indonesia than Europe or U.S. because of the strategy they’re doing, but I don’t think anybody knows the answer.
• Professor Dale Fisher from the Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine at the National University of Singapore said he understood the rationale of Indonesia’s approach. Younger working adults are generally more active, more social and travel more so this strategy should decrease community transmission faster than vaccinating older individuals,” he said."

 

[NFLDERS]

Good gravy - we have got a BIG mess on our hands here in Canada resulting from politicians taking vacations abroad over the holidays. The news has reported many of them from all over the country at every level and of every political stripe. There is outrage from the public and they are either resigning or being removed from their posts in droves.

Unlike many others who are pretty straight-forward in their opinions, I'm torn on this. On the one hand, there's the point that elected officials should hold themselves to a higher standard than the restrictions they mandate for the populous. I certainly don't disagree with that. On the other hand, it is not legally prohibited to travel outside Canada, as long as quarantine requirements are observed upon re-entry. Although I can't really go anywhere myself, many Canadians have travelled or plan to, including many DIS'ers as has been discussed on this and other boards. They/I would certainly not want to be sanctioned when they are not doing anything wrong.

Personally, I would be far more incensed if an official was caught in non-compliance such as gathering in a home for Christmas or not wearing a mask or distancing properly. If they were doing things the rest of us are not permitted to do, it would be way more clear-cut for me. I know the issue has been encountered in other countries - what are your opinions?

It to me was a joke that those in Premier positions may back peddle with well, I guess our advisements were not clear enough regarding travel even though it was not illegal. We in our household follow mandates first, and then advisements too. Also, I understood 1/2 of Canadians got together with family or friends during the holidays.

So many issues our own Premier having at least 6 infractions from Mother's Day gathering, cottage country trips, a large unmasked non social distanced wedding, and so on.. sigh.

 

[disneyholic family]

I find it interesting that the Pfizer vaccine, even though it was the first one ready to go, will end up with a smaller piece of the action than the others, due to the transport/storage issues. Here in Canada most of ours will end up being Moderna. I wonder why, if the others solved the extreme temperature issue, Pfizer couldn't do the same?

we have only had Prizer so far and have managed the logistics issues.
We'd be thrilled to get more Pfizer if Pfizer would provide it.
It's not clear when our next delivery will be.
All of our initial 3.8 million doses have been spoken for, so as of the end of this week, we'll stop giving first doses and only proceed with second doses until the next delivery.

Any western nation should be fine with Pfizer, so if that's what's available, they should go for it.
As for poorer, third world countries, even Moderna's is a problem logistically, though the cold storage required is more of a standard kind.

Sorry - I'm not sure I ever caught where you're from?

Israel

I mentioned this on another thread but thought it would be good information here too with how another country is working through their vaccines:

In Indonesia they are vaccinating their working force first and the ages given were 18-59. In the article they mentioned they weren't 'bucking the trend' (speaking towards the U.S. and others who are concentrating on elderly first) but that in their country there wasn't enough vaccine data on the efficacy of the vaccine on the elderly; for context their vaccine being used is from China (Sinovac).

Discussed in the article was

• "I don’t think anybody can get too dogmatic about what is the right approach,” said Peter Collignon, professor of infectious diseases at Australian National University, adding that Indonesia’s strategy could slow the spread of the disease, although it may not affect mortality rates.
• Indonesia doing it different to the U.S. and Europe is of value, because it will tell us (whether) you’ll see a more dramatic effect in Indonesia than Europe or U.S. because of the strategy they’re doing, but I don’t think anybody knows the answer.
• Professor Dale Fisher from the Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine at the National University of Singapore said he understood the rationale of Indonesia’s approach. Younger working adults are generally more active, more social and travel more so this strategy should decrease community transmission faster than vaccinating older individuals,” he said."

This will be interesting for another reason. We don't know if the chinese vaccine actually works or not.
Obviously, the chinese claim that it does, but this will provide an independent verification.

I believe the chinese vaccine is also old school (like astrazeneca and the russian vaccine).
So it will also be interesting to see how it does with the mutations.

.

 

[ronandannette]

I can see how you are torn. Me too, but only because it depends on the situation.

As long as they aren't telling everyone else to stay home, I feel they should be able to travel anywhere that is legal to travel (as long as they follow proper protocol when they return).

But the politicians that go on TV and demand others stay home, and then sneak on a plane to go on vacation? They should lose their job.

Well, here's the thing: We are all under local lock-down orders (enforceable by law) that prevent us from doing things like having visitors in our homes, eating lunch in a restaurant or gathering around a firepit or at the skating rink. None of us are prohibited from leaving Canada (although there could be some potential consular issues) as long as we observe the quarantine requirements upon re-entry. Myself or any other Canadian could have taken those same trips without reprisal. Does that make it wise, or a show of good leadership? No, certainly not. But it was not outside the rules, strictly speaking. As I mentioned, I would be much more upset if an official was ignoring the local lock-down restrictions but I haven't heard of any blatant cases of that.

 

[ronandannette]

I mentioned this on another thread but thought it would be good information here too with how another country is working through their vaccines:

In Indonesia they are vaccinating their working force first and the ages given were 18-59. In the article they mentioned they weren't 'bucking the trend' (speaking towards the U.S. and others who are concentrating on elderly first) but that in their country there wasn't enough vaccine data on the efficacy of the vaccine on the elderly; for context their vaccine being used is from China (Sinovac).

Discussed in the article was

• "I don’t think anybody can get too dogmatic about what is the right approach,” said Peter Collignon, professor of infectious diseases at Australian National University, adding that Indonesia’s strategy could slow the spread of the disease, although it may not affect mortality rates.
• Indonesia doing it different to the U.S. and Europe is of value, because it will tell us (whether) you’ll see a more dramatic effect in Indonesia than Europe or U.S. because of the strategy they’re doing, but I don’t think anybody knows the answer.
• Professor Dale Fisher from the Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine at the National University of Singapore said he understood the rationale of Indonesia’s approach. Younger working adults are generally more active, more social and travel more so this strategy should decrease community transmission faster than vaccinating older individuals,” he said."

All very legit points and I shall watch the outcome with interest.

 

[ronandannette]

we have only had Prizer so far and have managed the logistics issues.
We'd be thrilled to get more Pfizer if Pfizer would provide it.
It's not clear when our next delivery will be.
All of our initial 3.8 million doses have been spoken for, so as of the end of this week, we'll stop giving first doses and only proceed with second doses until the next delivery.

Any western nation should be fine with Pfizer, so if that's what's available, they should go for it.
As for poorer, third world countries, even Moderna's is a problem logistically, though the cold storage required is more of a standard kind.



Israel



This will be interesting for another reason. We don't know if the chinese vaccine actually works or not.
Obviously, the chinese claim that it does, but this will provide an independent verification.

I believe the chinese vaccine is also old school (like astrazeneca and the russian vaccine).
So it will also be interesting to see how it does with the mutations.

.

Our first quantity was Pfizer which was distributed in major population centres across Canada. Although we certainly aren't third-world, sadly there are very remote locations in our northern Territories that simply could not manage the requirements of the Pfizer and those vulnerable populations had to wait until our Moderna stuff showed up just after Christmas.

 

[ronandannette]

It to me was a joke that those in Premier positions may back peddle with well, I guess our advisements were not clear enough regarding travel even though it was not illegal. We in our household follow mandates first, and then advisements too. Also, I understood 1/2 of Canadians got together with family or friends during the holidays.

So many issues our own Premier having at least 6 infractions from Mother's Day gathering, cottage country trips, a large unmasked non social distanced wedding, and so on.. sigh.

As I mentioned, the majority of the feedback I've heard is very similar to yours and people are angry. Fair enough. We've complied with every last single official restriction as well and will continue to, but I certainly can't say I wouldn't travel (in accordance with the rules) myself if I were able, and I'd have a hard time condemning anyone else for doing so just because they can and I can't.

 

[disneyholic family]

Our first quantity was Pfizer which was distributed in major population centres across Canada. Although we certainly aren't third-world, sadly there are very remote locations in our northern Territories that simply could not manage the requirements of the Pfizer and those vulnerable populations had to wait until our Moderna stuff showed up just after Christmas.

we asked pfizer's permission to break apart packages of vials.
They shipped in a way that there was a large number of vials within each package.
Israel asked Pfizer if we could break it down into more manageable quantities, so that it could be delivered to smaller locations that need less.
Also, we developed some kind of carrier that allowed it to be broken down into fewer units and still kept at that insane deep freeze setting.
again, with the approval of pfizer.
had we not been able to do that, we would have had to continue with only centralized vaccine centers.
By dividing up the original packages, we could open it up to neighborhood clinics, so that each clinic was able to administer the vaccine, which is imperative to reach the population that is unable to get to centralized vaccine centers (the very elderly, as well as people who depend on public transportation, etc).

we haven't received any moderna yet, even though we were one of the very first countries (if not the very first) to contract with moderna way back in may or thereabouts.
We contracted at that time for 3 million doses (or maybe 6 million doses, i don't recall) and then in the fall contracted for another 3 million (either doses or enough for 3 million people - i don't remember)..
but in the meantime, we haven't received anything from moderna, so thank god for pfizer...
here's hoping it actually works and that we didn't screw up the vaccine in any way that makes it less effective...

but our pfizer is running out and we don't know when we'll get another shipment...
it's all well and good that 80% of vulnerable will be fully vaccinated (both doses) by the end of january, but that leaves a lot of people not yet vaccinated.

.

 

[NFLDERS]

As I mentioned, the majority of the feedback I've heard is very similar to yours and people are angry. Fair enough. We've complied with every last single official restriction as well and will continue to, but I certainly can't say I wouldn't travel (in accordance with the rules) myself if I were able, and I'd have a hard time condemning anyone else for doing so just because they can and I can't.

We are clearly of a different take on, Stay Safe, Stay Home regarding travel I'm a 'To' Stay Safe, Stay Home, and lessen risk overall.

 

[ronandannette]

We are clearly of a different take on, Stay Safe, Stay Home regarding travel I'm a 'To' Stay Safe, Stay Home.

If the borders were closed outbound, that would settle the issue, but they're not. I'm all for holding people to compliance with requirements and not at all comfortable with sanctions for things that are actually allowed. If we (collectively) demand to hold politicians to a higher standard and the leadership responds, so be it.

ETA: You must have been in the process of editing your post while I was quoting it. The comment about lessened risk begs the question whether the the Quebec MNA was safer in Barbados than he is at home in Montreal.

 

[Karin1984]

The first vaccination in NL has taken place a few minutes ago, a nurse from an institution for elderly people with dementia. She and three colleagues will be the first. It happens at the location at the very first hotspot 10 months ago (we love symbolism ;-) ). Total today will be 36 people and as of tomorrow at this location they vaccinate 7 days a week from 8am - 10pm (I believe).
Also today the hospitals will start vaccinating their ICU staff, ambulance workers etc.

Tomorrow 2 more locations open. Friday another 3. And as of the 15th all locations are open.

75% of the Dutch people will want to get vaccinated, 80% for medical staff. 15% of the Dutch people says they probably/definitely will not get the vaccin.
In 2 days, 60.000 medical staff made their appointments, that's about 30% of all our medical staff.
We expect that when we are at 30-40% vaccinated we will see the effects. Less deaths we will probably see sooner.

I am watching the news, and they have an expert to explain how the vaccin works, is it safe. And one of the things she said: "RNA doesn't affect your DNA". And I am thinking: Who ever said that? Were there actually people who thought that your DNA is altered due to RNA?


We might get also extra lockdown measures as the current lockdown has not brought the effect they hoped. The extension of the lockdown is almost guaranteed. But I do wonder what else we can close down. They talk about closing extra stores. The only ones that are open are 1. supermarkets, 2. drugstores, 3. opticians. 4. Pet stores so pets also can eat and 5. Post offices.
Will closing more of those help? Other thing that is on the table is closing the hotels. Also this, I do not think it will help much.

 

[elphaba91]

We might get also extra lockdown measures as the current lockdown has not brought the effect they hoped. The extension of the lockdown is almost guaranteed. But I do wonder what else we can close down. They talk about closing extra stores. The only ones that are open are 1. supermarkets, 2. drugstores, 3. opticians. 4. Pet stores so pets also can eat and 5. Post offices.
Will closing more of those help? Other thing that is on the table is closing the hotels. Also this, I do not think it will help much.

Just curious, why are people staying in hotels? If all the stores, restaurants, tourist attractions, etc. are closed, then it doesn't sound like much of a vacation or even staycation to me.

Looking at what your restrictions are and knowing what Victoria did, there are more measures you can take (they are definitely not fun, but are effective). Things like totally banning visitors, limiting trips to those essential stores (one person per household a day), restricting the distance you can travel from home and even limiting the time you can spend outdoors.

 

[ronandannette]

I am watching the news, and they have an expert to explain how the vaccin works, is it safe. And one of the things she said: "RNA doesn't affect your DNA". And I am thinking: Who ever said that? Were there actually people who thought that your DNA is altered due to RNA?

We might get also extra lockdown measures as the current lockdown has not brought the effect they hoped. The extension of the lockdown is almost guaranteed. But I do wonder what else we can close down. They talk about closing extra stores. The only ones that are open are 1. supermarkets, 2. drugstores, 3. opticians. 4. Pet stores so pets also can eat and 5. Post offices.
Will closing more of those help? Other thing that is on the table is closing the hotels. Also this, I do not think it will help much.

Yes, it has been discussed to death - the idea of an RNA vaccine as it was unfamiliar to most and many voiced concerns. Turns out this science is not new at all and has been in development for more than a decade but the average person has no way of knowing that. I’m afraid there are still a good number of people who either haven’t been informed or refuse to understand and remain skeptical.

Your second point about restrictions is where we are at also. Whatever it is we’re doing (and it’s already draconian) is not working, at least not nearly fast enough. What more is there really, short of full confinement?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The first vaccination in NL has taken place a few minutes ago, a nurse from an institution for elderly people with dementia. She and three colleagues will be the first. It happens at the location at the very first hotspot 10 months ago (we love symbolism ;-) ). Total today will be 36 people and as of tomorrow at this location they vaccinate 7 days a week from 8am - 10pm (I believe).
Also today the hospitals will start vaccinating their ICU staff, ambulance workers etc.

Tomorrow 2 more locations open. Friday another 3. And as of the 15th all locations are open.

This is so exciting! I'm so happy for y'all

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Just curious, why are people staying in hotels? If all the stores, restaurants, tourist attractions, etc. are closed, then it doesn't sound like much of a vacation or even staycation to me.

At least in the States some hotels are being used for isolation or quarantines with some being paid for by the states as in a contract with the hotel for usage for that, some are not. Some are being used for those who work from home but need or want to be away from their exact home, there's also a probably lesser thought of situation where you have a loved one ailing in the hospital and you're staying in a hotel to be closer to them. It's also something that people use in inclement weather times. If you lose power at your home hotels are common to go to (should they also have power). Truckers use them as well if they aren't sleeping in their cabs, people traveling for business also use them, etc.

There are for sure people vacationing in the States (which is like what ronandannette's conversation was about not prohibited in most places but not advisable either by health officials) just that hotels aren't only being used for that.

That may be completely different in the Netherlands though just wanted to touch on how hotels can be used for more than just vacation or staycation even if they are also being used for that.

 

[mom2rtk]

At least in the States some hotels are being used for isolation or quarantines with some being paid for by the states as in a contract with the hotel for usage for that, some are not. Some are being used for those who work from home but need or want to be away from their exact home, there's also a probably lesser thought of situation where you have a loved one ailing in the hospital and you're staying in a hotel to be closer to them. It's also something that people use in inclement weather times. If you lose power at your home hotels are common to go to (should they also have power). Truckers use them as well if they aren't sleeping in their cabs, people traveling for business also use them, etc.

There are for sure people vacationing in the States (which is like what ronandannette's conversation was about not prohibited in most places but not advisable either by health officials) just that hotels aren't only being used for that.

That may be completely different in the Netherlands though just wanted to touch on how hotels can be used for more than just vacation or staycation even if they are also being used for that.

My daughter's university used local hotels for quarantining students when numbers started climbing after school started in the fall. Might have gone on all semester. Not sure about that.

Definitely makes me be in no hurry to stay in a hotel any time soon.

 

[Karin1984]

Just curious, why are people staying in hotels? If all the stores, restaurants, tourist attractions, etc. are closed, then it doesn't sound like much of a vacation or even staycation to me.

Looking at what your restrictions are and knowing what Victoria did, there are more measures you can take (they are definitely not fun, but are effective). Things like totally banning visitors, limiting trips to those essential stores (one person per household a day), restricting the distance you can travel from home and even limiting the time you can spend outdoors.

Your second point about restrictions is where we are at also. Whatever it is we’re doing (and it’s already draconian) is not working, at least not nearly fast enough. What more is there really, short of full confinement?

I do not know why people go to hotels. Hotel restaurants are open, but take out only. You have to eat in your room. And as all stores are closed, yes, you can walk around a city bit not a lot of fun in this weather. The only places I can imagine people want to go are the holiday parks in the woods and other nature places. We have a lot of great areas for walking. Probably people just want to get out of the house, different environment can do a lot for your (mental health). But these people are still mainly with each other, and not a lot of country with others, so I wonder if it will help.
And probably there are some people staying at hotels if they are here for essential business work, but I don't think this is a lot of people.

And other restrictions... Apparently we are interested in the 15K radius (10 Miles) that Germany now has. However, I think the politicians in the west forget how people live in the east, south and north. There are so many little villages where everything in these peopple's lives can be within that same village, or maybe some surrounding villages, but that's all within the 15K.

To have a piece of paper with you to prove where you go and where you come from, or proving that you haven't left your home before that day, collecting stamps, is very reminiscent of the 2nd World War. Some people say 'that's already 75 years ago, who remembers', but it is 'only 75 years ago' and we have a collective memory of this. It's the main reason we never had a curfew other countries did have. I think this measure could be handled similar.

Second, can it be maintained? I wonder if we have enough police force / army to take care of keeping everyone in their home. My guess is that they might be able to get 10% of the perpetrators.

The main problem: The problem is at home, within families. And then you need neighbours to spy on each other and call the police on each other. And that is something you do not do, especially not in small villages where everyone knows each other. The new measures will not solve that.

A few weeks ago, we had a secret report come to light that the closing of restaurants probably had a negative effect on bringing the numbers down, as people still did have dinner with each other, but at home with either take out. In a restaurant you have to go at some point. When you are in your own home, with some friends, you can stay as long as you want.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

My daughter's university used local hotels for quarantining students when numbers started climbing after school started in the fall. Might have gone on all semester. Not sure about that.

Definitely makes me be in no hurry to stay in a hotel any time soon.

I almost mentioned that but wasn't sure what other colleges were doing. For KU they made an agreement with Naismith Hall for this usage. Naismith being technically the only private residence hall but it's functioning as a hotel presently speaking and not being used as a regular residence hall.

On the KS side I know the state contracted out some hotels (and is paying for it) for those isolation and quarantines and they are not for public usage for those specific ones. One of them I know is in Gardner IIRC and there is actually one being used in Lawrence. By isolation they are also meaning those who are in these higher risk occupations who basically don't see their families due to that. I've heard of people renting RVs and parking them at their house functioning the same way.

I def. understand the concern with mixing public with the usage of isolation and quarantines. I honestly believe if they are going to be used for this purpose they shouldn't allow mixed usage but not everywhere is doing that. I do believe a hotel should be extremely deep cleaned though prior to returning it to public usage.