Any news when DVC members can get an annual pass???

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Nah… it’s not entitlement. Disney set up certain expectations. It very close to bait and switch. I get it, fine print and all. But dvc members have a right to be angry about the AP and the arbitrary way it which it is now used by Disney.

I don’t even care about the AP myself. I’m just disgusted with disney all around. The AP arbitrary allocation is just more evidence for me that they are ______. Dh is so disgusted with disney that even when the AP comes back he says we’re not buying. And I have to say I agree. We’ve moved on. So I hope that was part of Disney’s ingenious “strategy”— to get rid of us. Masterminds. We haven’t been back since covid, except to magic moonlight or whatever that’s called. We’ve discovered that one park about twice a year works for us lol. Just not interested in any of the scheduling and genie etc etc. No thanks. We do still like dvc though. We’ve sold some, but we still have some. We’ll see how long we keep it. For now, we use it to go to Vero, hhi, and universal 😉. We like to be with the cool kids. And they’re no longer at Disney unfortunately.
I really don’t see why you are disagreeing with me?
 
It's fun to argue about what various sentences do or do not mean. Some of us might even be right.

But at the end of the day, Disney holds both first-mover and scale advantages. Disney gets to make the initial decision about how they are going to interpret those sentences, and they will act accordingly. If some people disagree with that interpretation, it will be up to them to convince Disney--either directly or through a court action--that their alternative interpretation is correct.

When engaging in that dispute, Disney has the advantage of (a) money and (b) an army of talented in-house counsel. So, "those who disagree" may well have a bigger task on their hands than they are willing to undertake. Disney might well be wrong, but it might be the case that no one has the means and inclination to convince them of that fact.

There has been one example where "those who disagree" have convinced Disney to change their interpretation without needing to go to the courts. Namely, the "lockoff premium" point charts that were walked back a few years ago. [That one was also interesting in that I don't think anyone thought Disney's position made sense. It made sense for studios to go up, sure. But it made no sense for 1BRs to go up as well.]

Disney has done other things that seem to directly contradict what seems to be clear language in the offering statements, and essentially dared someone to stop them. The most notable example I can think of is the Treehouse reallocation in 2013. My understanding of the documents is that they require reallocations to keep annual point totals constant within a Unit. But, the Treehouse reallocation was across Units. They did the same thing, again, with the Standard/Preferred reallocation in 2017. (No Unit spans two buildings in the Declaration, AFAIK.) When last I checked, both reallocations were still in place.

Interestingly, OKW also created the equivalent of Preferred/Standard categories in its "Hospitality House" vs. "General Resort" booking categories. But, those did not change points requirements; both were the same the entire time. That was in 2008. It was the same idea as the SSR Preferred/Standard split. But the OKW change was not accompanied by a change in the respective point for the buildings--it did not reallocate anything, let alone across units. It also happened before the Treehouse reallocation, which did do so across units.

My best guess is that at some point between '08 and '13 Disney decided that the phrase "the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points existing within a given Unit ... at any time may not be increased or decreased because of any ... reallocation" [emphasis in the original*] does not mean that the points for a given Unit have to remain the same, but instead means something else, and that something else allows them to add points to e.g. the Treehouse Units and take them away from other Units in SSR.

I don't see how Disney's apparent changed interpretation, as applied to SSR, can possibly be consistent with the language in the offering statement. But Disney's interpretation of what that phrase means is the one that is applied in actual fact, so (again de facto) that's what it means---at least until it means something else de jure.

So, even if some folks are correct that the language guarantees three years of AP discounts "or the equivalent", Disney (a) disagrees, (b) is not providing either AP discounts or their equivalent, and (c) isn't about to change of their own volition until they are good and ready.

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My source for the POS language is https://*******.com, but apparently that's not legal here.

There are three "ages" in DVC interpretation of the reallocation of points between Units.

At the beginning, they thought they couldn't reallocate between units. This led to the creation of the "near HH" category at OKW and "BW view" at BWV. Same price point, separate booking category.

Then they started to reallocate between units, but in the interest of the membership, or at least, while someone might have been upset, we can see the logic behind what they did. This led to the change in booking category for some theme park view rooms to standard at BLT (the lowest 5 floors), some Savannah view to standard at AKV, the THV reallocation that increased their prices and lowered a bit 2BR, the creation of standard and preferred at SSR.
The THV reallocation was egregious. In their marketing materials they actually promoted the new THV as "3BR at the cost of a 2BR". Many people bought just to get 11 months advantage on THV and were upset by the reallocation.
And I think it's when DVC became greedy. They saw they got away with it and decided to exploit it with the infamous lockoff premium reallocation (BTW that reallocation also changed the point chart for bungalows and cabins right after the resorts sold out, another very unpopular thing). And that's when we stopped them.

And then the third age began, with no more reallocations between Units. They still tried some shenanigans (with the new 7 seasons) but they haven't touched Units anymore.

So now we are in a suspended state. The rollback on the 2020 point charts somehow acknowledges at least that if the reallocations are brought to court, there is a concrete chance that Disney might lose. We have a few reallocations made in Age 2 that could be contested, but no one had and few have an interest in doing so. For example, while I think the SSR reallocation is unlawful, I'm not going to spend a lot of money and time to bring it to court. It actually advantages me because now I have a cheaper category to book. I've stayed in a standard room that was a savannah view before the reallocation, and while I was happy to have it as a bonus, I would have been pretty upset had I paid a premium for it. And everyone agree that the parking lot views at BLT were a scam at theme park view price point.
So DVC stay quiet, they never acknowledged that the reallocations in Age 2 or even the lockoff reallocation were unlawful, just that they were undone after members' demand. (Do you believe they rolled back a change that could have net them millions every year just because a couple dozens people, the Notorious 24, complained?). So everything is suspended, the reallocations stand and they hope no one will contest them. I do not think they'll reallocate across units again.
 
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Agreed. I think it would be interesting if a studio vs. 1BR rebalance was attempted, raising the former and lowering the latter, but keeping the current lock off premium rather than increasing it. That would seem to be supported by demand, but at resorts with both dedicated and lockoff versions would probably require a cross-unit reallocation.

It would also make many many Members very angry, and make the weekend/weekday reaction look tame in comparison.

I also am a little surprised no one (as far as we know) challenged the Treehouses, because I thought it was egregious as well.
 
The way they define a Unit in the POS is not identical to how the Florida statute defines a Unit, which matches instead the definition of a Vacation home in the POS. For this reason I think they cannot reallocate between studios and 1BR either. But this is even more technical than the lockoff premium, so I accept I might be wrong.
The problem is the Florida statute was written when timeshares were (almost) only in weeks. Disney pioneered the point system in the US. So it must be interpreted how certain articles apply to point systems and as far as I know a point reallocation across units never went to court, so there is no precedent.
 
I’ll bite again. May replace, does not mean must replace and 3 years OR less, is not 3 years. If it was three years from today, it would not include the word less.

So, you are not correct and no perk is guaranteed and we are not entailed to any aspect of it,

If the AP goes away, they are not required…just that they have the option..to replace it and nothing in that documents says that.

Also, the AP language was updated that we get access from time to time and they can be eliminated as well. It clarified that the decision is not up to DVD and that WDW controls their offerings.

It pretty much gives DVD the right to do what they want in terms of what is offered and what is changed….

And it is called out at the top that any benefit can be terminated at any time, without notice.

Here is what it says and you can’t ignore this clause. It’s pretty straight forward and is inserted before it even talks about any specific benefits.

View attachment 741929
Not that modifications to agreements don't happen everywhere over time, but the fact they felt the need to clarify was obviously an admittance that in the past they weren't crystal clear about it (and also used it to market).

I don't think it will happen, but I'd be curious to see how a lawsuit wound up. I bet theres a lot of people would.would not have spent $$$ on DVC had you told them theres a possibility they'd also be laying $200 for.a day ticket now.on top of dues.
 
I bet theres a lot of people would.would not have spent $$$ on DVC had you told them theres a possibility they'd also be laying $200 for.a day ticket now.on top of dues.

Maybe, maybe not. There haven't always been ticket discounts. And we that purchased early, were never really promised any...other than the early incentive of free park passes...and we know that would end on a specific date (Dec 31, 1999, if I remember correctly)
 
Maybe, maybe not. There haven't always been ticket discounts. And we that purchased early, were never really promised any...other than the early incentive of free park passes...and we know that would end on a specific date (Dec 31, 1999, if I remember correctly)

Correct and I think the initial executives for DVC seem pretty angelic in comparison to the most recent mixes. My guess is it started to happen around when Jim "Aulani" Lewis was steering the ship, or maybe slightly before that.
 
The way they define a Unit in the POS is not identical to how the Florida statute defines a Unit, which matches instead the definition of a Vacation home in the POS. For this reason I think they cannot reallocate between studios and 1BR either. But this is even more technical than the lockoff premium, so I accept I might be wrong.
The problem is the Florida statute was written when timeshares were (almost) only in weeks. Disney pioneered the point system in the US. So it must be interpreted how certain articles apply to point systems and as far as I know a point reallocation across units never went to court, so there is no precedent.
The odd thing to me is there’s a clear issue with balance of demand of studios and 1bedroom but they still keep building new properties with same imbalance. I’ve always been of the opinion if I’m going to spend the points to upgrade to 1bedroom I’m going to add the few extra more to get 2bedroom. With how high the lockoff premiums are it’s almost a no brainer to add the extra space for 2br. The only reason I ever would book 1br is availability driven.

That said I would not be supportive of Disney trying to decrease price of 1br by increasing price of studio and I would argue it’s clearly not legal for resorts that have dedicated studios beyond just the lock offs. The one lever I think Disney could use to rebalance would be something they never will do, reduce the lock off premium to decrease cost of 1br without increasing elsewhere.

Since the points are declared by the 2br points this shouldn’t create any legal issues imo. I’m not even convinced dropping the lock off premium would financially hurt Disney much since they likely would trade off less points they get for free with more availability to rent rooms at higher price per point (more studios available for them at 60 days and 1br cheaper for them too when using their points).
 
The odd thing to me is there’s a clear issue with balance of demand of studios and 1bedroom but they still keep building new properties with same imbalance.
That's not accurate.

For a long period of time, Studios and 1BR were built on a nearly 1:1 basis as part of a lockoff Two Bedroom. SSR, Kidani, BLT, VGC, VGC and the original VGF building basically follow this model.

Starting around 2014 we got:

Poly: 360 studios, 0 One Bedroom
Copper Creek: 78 studios, 56 One Bedroom
Riviera: 210 studios, 177 One Bedroom
VGF2: 202 studios, 0 One Bedroom

That's 850 studios vs 233 One Bedrooms over the last 10 years. VDH is reportedly very heavily weighted toward studios with 250+ studios and only about 20 one bedrooms.

I’ve always been of the opinion if I’m going to spend the points to upgrade to 1bedroom I’m going to add the few extra more to get 2bedroom. With how high the lockoff premiums are it’s almost a no brainer to add the extra space for 2br. The only reason I ever would book 1br is availability driven.

Everyone is different. Our family of 4 has booked one bedroom villas the vast majority of our trips, unless we had more people and moved up to a 2B. That's especially true now that several 1B rooms have two beds separate beds in the living room.

There is significant evidence that Studios are the most sought-after accommodation and it's good to see DVC adjusting. They can't go back and change the balance of SSR or Kidani, but building more studios--and fewer One Bedrooms--in newer locations should help the program-wide balance.
 
Wow. All this talk about POS and point reallocations is some DVC varsity level stuff. Any chance DVC might do something similar at CCV? The way I see it, the studios and 2BRs are way too sought after while no one rarely books the 1BR and cabins.
 
Wow. All this talk about POS and point reallocations is some DVC varsity level stuff. Any chance DVC might do something similar at CCV? The way I see it, the studios and 2BRs are way too sought after while no one rarely books the 1BR and cabins.
They tried it with the 2020 charts, but then rolled it back.
 
I agree. I don’t really think it’s about managing attendance. I think current management are “controlling” type people and like to micromanage to make it seem like they are doing something because they have no actual vision. So they just tinker. I mean think of all the little nonesense rules and bureaucracy they’ve come up with over the last two years. And in an attempt to make their tinkering seem important, they come up with “data.” I think my favorite was if you have an annual pass you no longer have to schedule to park hop but only on certain days of the week and not the magic kingdom. I’m probably botching that, but who can keep track of drivel like that. They’re not fooling anyone. They just look stupid. They’re in over their heads.

The new system with APs not needing reservations to enter after 2 pm starts in April. Only time it doesn’t work is MK on weekends

Its a good start for those who want to make a spontaneous trip. I am happy because it means that if I don’t go to a park i booked, I can just cancel and go to another one after 2 pm.
 
Not that modifications to agreements don't happen everywhere over time, but the fact they felt the need to clarify was obviously an admittance that in the past they weren't crystal clear about it (and also used it to market).

I don't think it will happen, but I'd be curious to see how a lawsuit wound up. I bet theres a lot of people would.would not have spent $$$ on DVC had you told them theres a possibility they'd also be laying $200 for.a day ticket now.on top of dues.

The clarification was that APs can be suspended and that it is DPEP that is in charge of those offerings which needed to be added when suspension actually happened.

Sorry, but everything had always included the language that benefits are not guaranteed and could be terminated at any time.

So, we do all go in having the info…and I still believe it’s on the buyer to do their due diligence on understanding what they bought and why FL timeshare law gives every buyer 10 days to cancel after you sign your contracts.

I have no doubt we’d lose as owners in court over this one because plenty of DVC owners out there do indeed buy daily tickets and not the AP.
 
I like both, tbh. Galaxy's Edge is amazing to be inside but it lacks that whimsical feeling. Needs more characters and the OG Star Wars music or something and another ride.

Universal has put near zero effort into anything non-Potter. Velocicoaster is the only exception yet they did nothing to make a proper Jurassic Park/World land, which is wild to me. Fast and the Furious is one of the highest grossing franchises in movie history and look what they did? Most ride heights are 42inches or higher. Hagrids is 48 and Velocicoaster is 58(!). You are not allowing families to ride your best attractions together until they older. People complain of Genie+ pricing but have people looked at express pass pricing? Express pass is not controlled for a time to ride so you can hop in an Express Pass line and wait 30mins or longer. Not always but it can happen.

My opinion is that Universal is not as good overall. Some will agree and some will disagree. I am not even saying it is bad. I will still be going to Epic Universe. I was going to venture to Universal Hollywood to see Super Nintendo Land but I am not that inspired. It is very small and the ride doesn't get me excited enough.

I feel like this isn't the thread for this conversation. So I apologize to the OP for going off topic.
Different perceptions are funny. I thought the theming of the Jurassic Park section was great - almost included that when I mentioned the difference between Toy Story land and Star Wars land. Whenever going there I actually felt transported to the movie. (The cousin of a friend of mine was part of the design team). But some of the things that made it so have gone away or been ignored. I have yet to get to Universal since the pandemic.
My experience is friends with teenage kids move over to Universal and ditch Disney.
 
Now that DVC is expanding in California…
We will become more familiar with California Timeshare legal code.
Has there ever been any complaints filed from DVC Members In State of California?
Do they offer any type of Ticket discount for VGF DVC Membership?
 
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That's not accurate.

For a long period of time, Studios and 1BR were built on a nearly 1:1 basis as part of a lockoff Two Bedroom. SSR, Kidani, BLT, VGC, VGC and the original VGF building basically follow this model.

Starting around 2014 we got:

Poly: 360 studios, 0 One Bedroom
Copper Creek: 78 studios, 56 One Bedroom
Riviera: 210 studios, 177 One Bedroom
VGF2: 202 studios, 0 One Bedroom

That's 850 studios vs 233 One Bedrooms over the last 10 years. VDH is reportedly very heavily weighted toward studios with 250+ studios and only about 20 one bedrooms.



Everyone is different. Our family of 4 has booked one bedroom villas the vast majority of our trips, unless we had more people and moved up to a 2B. That's especially true now that several 1B rooms have two beds separate beds in the living room.

There is significant evidence that Studios are the most sought-after accommodation and it's good to see DVC adjusting. They can't go back and change the balance of SSR or Kidani, but building more studios--and fewer One Bedrooms--in newer locations should help the program-wide balance.

Personally I'd love to stay in 1 bedroom accommodations exclusively, but they come at such a premium over studios that since my wife and I only own 200 points, we can't afford to and stay as long/often as we like...
 
You are offering a perk to some members but not others - if they took away passes altogether then you don’t have a case. But they are offering a perk to only some members and new members don’t have the option that prior members have. That is not permitted we have to have equal access to perks if we are both direct members.
As much as I wish this was true, it is not. You are conflating two “different” products, purchasing a new AP which is not currently offered vs. renewing an existing AP. Different price points and availability. They even show up on your receipt differently.
 
As much as I wish this was true, it is not. You are conflating two “different” products, purchasing a new AP which is not currently offered vs. renewing an existing AP. Different price points and availability. They even show up on your receipt differently.
Agreed 100%. It's not offering a perk to some members and not others. It doesn't even have direct ties to DVC - all existing APs can be renewed (for now) and no new guests can purchase them, unless they live in Florida and want the restrictions of Pixie.
 
Agreed 100%. It's not offering a perk to some members and not others. It doesn't even have direct ties to DVC - all existing APs can be renewed (for now) and no new guests can purchase them, unless they live in Florida and want the restrictions of Pixie.
It is a special class of pass that is only offered to dvc members - no one else can get the pass - If you have the pass and you sell you DVC can you renew that pass ? Nope - case closed
 
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