"500 Kingdoms" -- CAVEAT EMPTOR!

[JimMIA]

Just back from our first-ever OFFsite Disney vacation, but one thing really caught my eye while we were there. We saw several signs on Disney busses talking about "DVC -- More than 500 Kingdoms!"

Obviously, they're starting to use the limited DVC access to RCI as a MAJOR selling point of DVC. Should be interesting...

{Note: Since the inception of this thread, other posters have explained the degree to which DVC timeshare sales personnel are attempting to exploit this aspect of ownership -- implying that a DVC member can just make a phone call to MS and go anywhere in the world.

That is VERY far from the truth, and is something that prospective buyers should be well aware of before they purchase. Therefore, I added "Caveat Emptor -- Buyer Beware -- to the title.)

 

[Buckeye Fan]

Just back from our first-ever OFFsite Disney vacation, but one thing really caught my eye while we were there. We saw several signs on Disney busses talking about "DVC -- More than 500 Kingdoms!"

Obviously, they're starting to use the limited DVC access to RCI as a MAJOR selling point of DVC. Should be interesting...

Quite! I still wonder if major changes are headed our way? My BIL and SIL used to trade out through II, but with the changes to how searches work over the years and changing to RCI, they are only using their points to stay at Disney. I'm not as familiar with what has changed that they dislike, but I know some of the changes make it harder to coordinate flights. My SIL is more organized than anyone I have ever known, so it's definitely not for lack of planning.

Personally, I think the advertisements and sales pitches are misleading, as it's not like you can book RCI properties like you can DVC properties. Plus, if I understood a previous post (Dean's, I think), we don't even have access to all of the RCI resorts. If/when we ever decide to not use our points for a DVC vacation, I will rent them out and just pay cash.

Thanks for the post. I am really interested to see what happens to DVC over the next few years.

 

[castleri]

Have only traded out once and that was through II. Daughter went to Aspen and it was a one phone call and the trade was done type thing for exactly what she wanted. I gather that is the exception to the rule and agree that if I decide to go somewhere other than Disney I will probably rent the points and just pay as we go also.

 

[dianeschlicht]

I'm not as thrilled with the exchange options of RCI as compared to II. Add to that the fact that the whole exchange thing is a total crap shoot, and I have lost faith in it. I think it makes about as much sense to buy DVC to exchange out as it does to buy a cheap RCI resort to exchange in.....NOT A GOOD IDEA.

 

[Brian Noble]

they're starting to use the limited DVC access to RCI

Except of course that access to RCI is not limited in any way. I don't recall for sure, but I don't *think* that BVTC is limited either.

The limitations are the Disney collection, DCL, and ABD.

I think what you are seeing instead is a result of the continued maturation of the product. At this point, all the "habitual" long-time WDW visitors have been exposed to DVC, and have decided to purchase (or not). Sure, there are probably a few more they haven't reached, but the on-property marketing message has been so pervasive, for so many years, that that market is probably as developed as it is going to get.

So, now, they are turning their attention to the "early-stage" pixie dust addicts. And, those folks might not yet be committed to the Only Disney Will Do lifestyle; for them, off-Disney resorts will be a bigger selling point.

 

[littlestar]

So Jim, what did you think of your off-site Bonnet Creek stay? Did it feel weird not staying at a DVC resort? Did you miss DVC?

I happen to really like Wyndham Bonnet Creek. I just booked an RCI Extra Vacation there for January 2012 - $440.99 before tax for the week in a two bedroom. That's almost what I would pay for one night in a DVC two bedroom on cash -

 

[JimMIA]

Except of course that access to RCI is not limited in any way. I don't recall for sure, but I don't *think* that BVTC is limited either.

Through DVC, you only have access to a little less than 600 of the more than 6,500 RCI resorts. That's pretty limited IMHO.

 

[JimMIA]

So Jim, what did you think of your off-site Bonnet Creek stay? Did it feel weird not staying at a DVC resort? Did you miss DVC?

I guess the best way to describe it would be "different." There were some things we liked better at Bonnet Creek, other things we prefer at DVC (particularly OKW).

We were on the top floor (15th) of Tower 4 and on the west end of the building (1565), and at first I wasn't wild about it. But I got used to it, and we had a spectacular view of the whole BC complex and WAY beyond -- to the east, the Hilton BC, Waldorf Astoria and their golf course, and the Gaylord Palms; to the west, Swan-Dolphin, DHS w/Tower of Terror, and way in the distance, Expedition Everest at AK; and around the corner of the building we could see most of the World Showcase at Epcot, including the full fireworks show.

I think the only thing we missed really was the space of an OKW 1 BR compared to the BC 1 BR. Our unit was 715 sq ft, and we thought that was small - although it was laid out better than an SSR 1 BR we had once. We had enough room, but next trip, we'll probably get a 2 BR. For the cost, why not?

If we were bus people, I'm sure we would have missed the Disney buses. BC has buses, but not as frequent as DVC. OTOH, BC's buses run on a regular schedule so you know when they will be leaving. We drive, so that was a non-issue to us.

Better things at BC: the pools (MUCH better); other amenities (major activities program, miniature golf, pool tables, free popcorn in the rooms with the coffee setup)...some nice extra touches. We also enjoyed the live entertainment at Escudos.

Didn't like -- the sales weasels, but we said no to their offer of an "Owner Update" and then just unplugged our phone. Reconnected it only to tell the Front Desk we were out of the room on our departure morning.

Also, it doesn't matter to us because we eat offsite anyway, but there is no table service restaurant at BC. Once the new Wyndham hotel is completed however, there will be table service there. I heard 5 TS restaurants, but that sounds like an awful lot for a 400-room hotel; I suspect they were including the restaurants at the Hilton and Waldorf Astoria.

I happen to really like Wyndham Bonnet Creek. I just booked an RCI Extra Vacation there for January 2012 - $440.99 before tax for the week in a two bedroom. That's almost what I would pay for one night in a DVC two bedroom on cash -

We really liked BC too, and that's a great Extra Vacations deal! (another DVC/RCI limitation, Brian -- no Extra Vacations or Last Calls).

 

[Brian Noble]

Through DVC, you only have access to a little less than 600 of the more than 6,500 RCI resorts. That's pretty limited IMHO.

Ah, I thought you meant limits on *resale* contracts (vs. direct purchases), not DVC vs. non-DVC RCI access.

I suspect they were including the restaurants at the Hilton and Waldorf Astoria.

Here's the list at HBC/W=A:
http://www1.hilton.com/en_US/hi/hotel/ORLHHHH-Hilton-Orlando-Bonnet-Creek-Florida/dining.do

So, it depends on how they are counting. If they mean full-service restaurants, then there will probably be five (or maybe six) across the three properties. If they meant everything (full service, cafe, and lounge) I would not be surprised by five in just the WBC location.

Edited to add: I dug up a job description for a pre-opening "Leisure Sales Manager" there. Here's the paragraph describing the property:

The hotel's Spanish Mediterranean architecture, designed by HHCP Architects of Maitland, Fla., will be reminiscent of the historic Flagler-era resorts of St. Augustine. The design calls for a 7,000-square-foot Wyndham Blue Harmony ™ spa and fitness center; 20,000 square feet of flexible meeting and conference space including an 8,000-square-foot main ballroom designed for groups up to 600; a full-service specialty restaurant; three-meal restaurant; pool bar and grill; lobby bar; and the Wyndham brand's new combination café, barista and food mart. Preference will be given for candidates who have pre-opening experience.

So that looks like five if you count everything including the lobby bar.

Edited to add:

I guess the best way to describe it would be "different." There were some things we liked better at Bonnet Creek, other things we prefer at DVC (particularly OKW).

That was our take too, though the 2BRs at BC and OKW are much more comparable, size-wise.

Our unit was 715 sq ft,

Odd. The directory lists them as having a minimum of 812.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/memberdirectory11-12/

 

[JimMIA]

Odd. The directory lists them as having a minimum of 812.

Yeah, I probably misread something; I guess it was 812 sq ft, Whatever it was, it was substantially smaller than an OKW 1 BR -- more like the size of SSR, but laid out better.

 

[littlestar]

BC two bedrooms are definitely more comparable size wise to OKW.

When you get into the presidential category at BC, the one bedroom is 1128 square feet - big difference from their regular 1 bedroom. OKW's one bedrooms are huge (I would say they have to be around 1,000 square feet)

I saw some Wyndham Bonnet Creek deals for October through December on the getravelop (government/military) site going for $369 a week! Didn't have the dates I needed, but that's a heck of a deal for a two bedroom at Bonnet Creek.

 

[Brian Noble]

Close; per Tim K's site, the OKW 1BRs are 942; quite a bit larger. SSRs are 714; quite a bit smaller.

It's really a shame that DVC went so small with their 2nd generation resorts. We though the 2BR at VWL was adequate for the four of us. It would have been cramped with six. I can't imagine putting eight in there. We'll be trying a 2BR at SSR for the first time this Thanksgiving; I expect our experience will be similar (though SSR might at least get all four of us around the table; completely impossible at VWL.)

 

[JimMIA]

Personally, I think the advertisements and sales pitches are misleading, as it's not like you can book RCI properties like you can DVC properties. Plus, if I understood a previous post (Dean's, I think), we don't even have access to all of the RCI resorts. If/when we ever decide to not use our points for a DVC vacation, I will rent them out and just pay cash.

Getting back to the original thought of this thread (before I hijacked my own thread!)...

I think any emphasis DVC puts on the RCI option is kind of a perfect storm for DVC. It allows them to frame the discussion in a very slanted way without actually lying. Yes, some of it will be misleading, but it won't be actually lying...and that's a step up from much of the timeshare industry.

DVC timeshare salesmen will say with DVC you're getting 500 Kingdoms using RCI. And actually, if you consider every RCI resort a "kingdom," you're actually getting a lot more than that. With DVC, you'll have access to almost SIX hundred!

(They won't mention the fact that that's less than 10% of RCI's resorts.)

And actually, you do book an RCI vacation just like you book a DVC stay -- you just call DVC's MS -- what could be easier than that?

(They won't mention the fact that you won't have a snowball's chance of getting most things you might want...nor will they talk about the relative value of whatever exchange you get.)

I think a slick timeshare salesman can make a pretty convincing argument to uneducated timeshare buyers. Imagine how successful they'll be with those who think they're just joining a club, and don't even realize they're buying a timeshare!

Hopefully, some of those prospective buyers will come here before buying and get a more balanced view.

 

[Starr W.]

Close; per Tim K's site, the OKW 1BRs are 942; quite a bit larger. SSRs are 714; quite a bit smaller.

It's really a shame that DVC went so small with their 2nd generation resorts. We though the 2BR at VWL was adequate for the four of us. It would have been cramped with six. I can't imagine putting eight in there. We'll be trying a 2BR at SSR for the first time this Thanksgiving; I expect our experience will be similar (though SSR might at least get all four of us around the table; completely impossible at VWL.)

It will be tough to get 4 around the table at SSR, I can't do it with my tall guys.

 

[mjc2003]

This sort of jives with the new DVC infomercial, 50% of which highlights travel outside of WDW. And even the WDW resorts it shows are only AKV and BLT. You would think from watching it that there are 2 places in WDW to stay as a DVC member, and most of the DVC travel is exotic trips to Europe and the like.

From all I've read about RCI exchanges, it's a luck-of-the-draw, poor 2nd option to using points versus DVC resorts. There have been some success stories, but most seem frustrated about the booking process, or disappointed with the accommodations. The fact that they would build a marketing campaign around "500 Kingdoms" is interesting indeed. The tagline should be, "500 Misleading Reasons to Join DVC", because unless there are dramatic changes to the current structure then the RCI exchange program is not a reason to join. It's an option, but not a reason.

 

[Deb & Bill]

... The tagline should be, "500 Misleading Reasons to Join DVC", because unless there are dramatic changes to the current structure then the RCI exchange program is not a reason to join. It's an option, but not a reason.

Or "Over 500 Misleading Reasons"

 

[JLS]

Even setting aside potential difficulties with booking RCI exchanges, DVC purchasers will eventually become very disillusioned with this product if they are buying in at these very high prices thinking that they will often want to exchange through RCI. Wait until people discover the various websites where you can rent a week almost any RCI resort for less than many are paying in yearly dues for DVC. Makes absolutely no financial sense.

I personally question why people will want to buy in to DVC at all at $140 per point. The cost of buying in has increased dramatically while the cost of rental has remained stagnant. In Hawaii you can rent a week in a 2-bedroom ocean view at the nicest timeshares out there (Westin Kanaapali on Maui, any of the new Marriott Vacation Clubs, etc.) for anywhere from $1500-$3000 depending on when you go and who you rent from. I have done it several times. Buying a week's worth of points at an ocean view in Aulani 2-bedroom will be a financial output of $50,000 or more plus probably $1800 a year in dues. I think the price point has gotten out of hand for the value, compared to what you can easily rent out there.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...I personally question why people will want to buy in to DVC at all at $140 per point. ....

I agree with you on that. Based on the price we paid for our first contract in 1997, we could have gotten almost three points for the price of one now.

 

[Brian Noble]

Wait until people discover the various websites where you can rent a week almost any RCI resort for less than many are paying in yearly dues for DVC. Makes absolutely no financial sense.

You'd be surprised by how many people refuse to take the red pill.

 

[JLS]

You'd be surprised by how many people refuse to take the red pill.

I agree! The problem will be when members end up hearing from family or friends about vacations where people stayed in a fabulous timeshare for a week that they rented for $1500.

At one point DVC was a great value. I am thrilled that we bought in at $74 per point and we love the BCV so I don't regret it at all. But I could not recommend to friends to buy in at $140 per point, particularly with the high points required to stay at the new resorts. Crazy. If you want a trader through RCI there are resorts weeks you can buy resale for just a few thousand dollars, or less, that provide good trades and allow you to access the entire RCI inventory.