Miami area condo collapse

[MillauFr]

Agree 100%.

The problem is the engineers have to figure out how to drop the remaining portion of the building so that it doesn't wreck the building next door -- OR endanger anyone under the rubble.

They can drop it on the pool. They can drop part of it on Collins Avenue. But they can't drop any of it in the middle or the NE corner.

They may have to do it in stages, and it may need to be a real ballet. Maybe some engineers here could give us some ideas.

It will be very difficult to perform a controlled demolition. Usually that requires placing charges at specific locations on the structure and then activating them in a certain sequence. Not sure anyone is going to risk their life to go inside the basement of the standing structure.

 

[MillauFr]

sounds like there will be intense scrutiny of all condo buildings' structural integrity so this never happens again anywhere else.

Agreed but it will still be up to the owners to pay for structural upgrades which are very expensive. There are many condo buildings that are near worthless because owners can't afford to maintain the building.

 

[jamescanuck2001]

Agree 100%.

The problem is the engineers have to figure out how to drop the remaining portion of the building so that it doesn't wreck the building next door -- OR endanger anyone under the rubble.

They can drop it on the pool. They can drop part of it on Collins Avenue. But they can't drop any of it in the middle or the NE corner.

They may have to do it in stages, and it may need to be a real ballet. Maybe some engineers here could give us some ideas.

Engineer here with some structural experience. With demolition, the as built drawings are used to model how the structure will react if certain elements are destroyed by blasting. You can still do that in the case of a damaged bdlg but there will be some educated guesses. The staging will be delayed blasting to first weaken the part of the structure facing the direction you want it to collapse to, and get the structure moving in that direction, then a very short time later the main blast to collapse the building.

Hard to see a staged demolition of a damaged building, where it is demolished in separate parts. Too much uncertainty.

 

[JimMIA]

It will be very difficult to perform a controlled demolition. Usually that requires placing charges at specific locations on the structure and then activating them in a certain sequence. Not sure anyone is going to risk their life to go inside the basement of the standing structure.

Agree. That's what's going to take them some time to figure out.

I guess it might be possible to place the charges using robots. The fire department has robots, but I don't know if they are capable of placing charges that way. The MDPD Bomb Squad does, though.

 

[jamescanuck2001]

Agreed but it will still be up to the owners to pay for structural upgrades which are very expensive. There are many condo buildings that are near worthless because owners can't afford to maintain the building.

Even the public assets, like roads and bridges, are generally underfunded.

In the private sphere, the general objective unfortunately is when the asset is exhausted or exploited, to walk away and it often falls on the government/taxpayers for the environmental cleanup, whether it is a mine, an industrial complex, or whatever. Similar to condos, in many cases the condos will simply deteriorate until condemned and go derelict (like old inner city neighbourhoods) and eventually demolished.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

A little more information here about some of the pets left in the building. The building was pet-free, but there were a dozen or so ”service animals” that were registered there, and probably some “illegally” there, too. They include cats, dogs, birds, and a guinea pig, among others. One woman grabbed her dog when she was running out, but left her cat, and now feels guilty. There are volunteers working to try to find a solution, and some who are willing to go into the building.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/30/florida-condo-collapse-missing-pets-rescueefforts/

 

[jamescanuck2001]

For some things, the law requires payment into a trust to fund future necessary repairs. This might be an approach for things like condos, rather than wait until the repairs are needed and have laypersons fight over what to do, from the beginning a portion of the monthly condo fees are paid into a trust/repairs fund that can be used when needed later to do the work required by inspection reports.

It's also clear than 40 years for a recertification process is probably 10 years too long for structures in high saline enviro.

 

[MillauFr]

A little more information here about some of the pets left in the building. The building was pet-free, but there were a dozen or so ”service animals” that were registered there, and probably some “illegally” there, too. They include cats, dogs, birds, and a guinea pig, among others. One woman grabbed her dog when she was running out, but left her cat, and now feels guilty. There are volunteers working to try to find a solution, and some who are willing to go into the building.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/30/florida-condo-collapse-missing-pets-rescueefforts/

Agreed. But at least at this location the land is probably worth $40 to $50m an acre. There is some value there even if the structure is worthless.

 

[JimMIA]

Mid-day update:

Two more bodies were recovered during the night, bringing the death total to 24. 124 people remain unaccounted for.

Mayor Levine-Cava said again this morning that the remaining structure had to come down, and plans to demolish it were moving forward. Engineers are working to figure out the details.

She said the building had to come down before TS Elsa brings dangerous winds, but Elsa appears to be inching further and further away from Miami. The system was also expected to retain minimal Category 1 hurricane strength through tomorrow, but overnight weakened back to tropical storm strength.

Authorities are trying to juggle a multitude of factors with the overall goal of rescuing some victims alive if at all possible.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

A little more information here about some of the pets left in the building. The building was pet-free, but there were a dozen or so ”service animals” that were registered there, and probably some “illegally” there, too. They include cats, dogs, birds, and a guinea pig, among others. One woman grabbed her dog when she was running out, but left her cat, and now feels guilty. There are volunteers working to try to find a solution, and some who are willing to go into the building.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/30/florida-condo-collapse-missing-pets-rescueefforts/

There is no doubt that there would be many people willing to volunteer to go into the building in an attempt to rescue the animals.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Mid-day update:

Two more bodies were recovered during the night, bringing the death total to 24. 124 people remain unaccounted for.

Mayor Levine-Cava said again this morning that the remaining structure had to come down, and plans to demolish it were moving forward. Engineers are working to figure out the details.

She said the building had to come down before TS Elsa brings dangerous winds, but Elsa appears to be inching further and further away from Miami. The system was also expected to retain minimal Category 1 hurricane strength through tomorrow, but overnight weakened back to tropical storm strength.

Authorities are trying to juggle a multitude of factors with the overall goal of rescuing some victims alive if at all possible.

So, they're thinking a few days not weeks like the previous article implied.

 

[JimMIA]

There is no doubt that there would be many people willing to volunteer to go into the building in an attempt to rescue the animals.

Of course. But there is also no doubt that emergency managers would never allow that.

 

[JimMIA]

So, they're thinking a few days not weeks like the previous article implied.

Right. The threat of hurricane or tropical storm force winds changed things. However, we are hopeful that Elsa will stay far enough west that we won't get strong winds here, so their plan may change back.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Right. The threat of hurricane or tropical storm force winds changed things. However, we are hopeful that Elsa will stay far enough west that we won't get strong winds here, so their plan may change back.

I'm hoping that too for the recue effort & for my own selfish reasons. Our home isn't far from there. We're out of town & couldn't do anything to secure our property from potential storm damage. Anyway, back to the building collapse. That's much more important than our home.

 

[neverlandsky]

So heartbreaking. Sounds like demo is tomorrow then it will be a recovery mission instead of being a search and rescue one.

 

[JimMIA]

So heartbreaking. Sounds like demo is tomorrow then it will be a recovery mission instead of being a search and rescue one.

It will still be a search and rescue effort. Obviously they will pause briefly while the building is demolished, but then they will restart. All of the officials are still holding out hope of saving lives.

Apparently the building has become very unstable -- the Governor described it this morning as "tottering" -- and is just too risky to leave in place. They seem to believe they can bring the building down safely without jeopardizing anyone still trapped in the rubble.

The mayor also said that they had conducted three separate searches for animals inside the remaining structure and had not been able to find any. She said they did the searches with cameras, so I assume they flew drones inside to look around. It's not surprising that they found nothing, but at least they tried.

*****
ETA: One additional piece of news. It was announced that six of the USAR personnel had tested positive for Covid-19. I don't know how often they are testing or what time period those test occurred.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

HOA/condo associations/co-op boards/etc are already reviled. Add in tens of thousands of special assessments to correct problems in all those buildings and the level of hate will be elevated.

I wonder how much this will affect condo values across the lower Florida area? Knowing that soon after buying you may be hit with a $80,000 special assessment to fix something major just found in your building.

I know I would not buy in the area for several years, until the extent of other issues are known.

I wouldn't have bought before this, nor now, nor after. And therein lies my biggest problem with condos. Assessments are reviled. But they are a necessity. I just wouldn't want to be in a situation where necessary repairs aren't made because people are too cheap to do them. In my single family home, if my neighbor doesn't fix his roof, it affects him. In a condo if the people vote not to fix the roof, it affects me too.

 

[tinatark]

It amazes me that so many people don't understand how condo ownership works - it has been widely reported the HOA has been requesting for owners to pay assessments to pay for repairs for several years, and apparently the talk among owners at the pool, etc. was "will you pay it?". Now that same board is being blamed for the building collapse. Smh.

 

[jamescanuck2001]

It amazes me that so many people don't understand how condo ownership works - it has been widely reported the HOA has been requesting for owners to pay assessments to pay for repairs for several years, and apparently the talk among owners at the pool, etc. was "will you pay it?". Now that same board is being blamed for the building collapse. Smh.

I think people know how it works. But its problematic and if not changed this tragedy will repeat itself.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

Somehow the news of the doomed pets upsets me more than the people who died.