Disney Skyliner (Gondola Transportation System) Read Post 1 Now Open!

[mcjaco]

Why are we arguing over monorail capacity in the gondola thread?

 

[jknezek]

Why are we arguing over monorail capacity in the gondola thread?

Because it is a measure of capacity we can relate to as we try and figure out what capacity this new system will have and how it will or won't move guests at peak times?

 

[TheMaxRebo]

20 combined in 1 car or 1/2 car?

20 combined in 1/2 car (so per section) standing and sitting - so 40 total in each monorail car

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Why are we arguing over monorail capacity in the gondola thread?

Just to compare it to how a 10-person capacity structure would compare to being in something we know

 

[Spridell]

It appears they are getting the D-Line: Omega IV-10 SI D since it can hold 10 people.

Thats a little too cramped for my liking. People sitting AND standing in between, I would pass if its that cabin.

 

[dlavender]

I know that there's a bench on each side and 2 stripper poles in the middle

I knew I wasn't using those correctly.

ETA: That does make the recent bachelor party monorail upgrade more understandable now, though.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

No im not questioning you. I'm just trying to figure out how they get that number cause there no way 10 people can sit on a bench in the monorail... I think. I'll have to pay closer attention

Ok sorry I just didn't understand what you were going for.

I believe this might be what Wiki's numbers are basing off of for the Mark VI ones in use. It's the best that I could find:

{ETA: I counted 20 "seats" so that's where they are getting that off of-however the seats aren't actually partitioned off as seats and instead are benches so that number could vary depending on peope's size. When I did a google search the pic I pasted in shows from WDWMAGIC forums from a couple years ago.}


Pic of being basically in the middle so on the other side of camera would be the back bench.


For scale of people inside:


That being said I'm sure the 40 people standing is based probably off of no strollers/ecv as clearly those will take up more room lessening the number of people standing and the numbers are probably based off of being squeezed in there versus having wiggle room.

*Again I'm just basing off of wiki so their numbers could be off for sure but it's something to go off of at least for me to understand the gondola sizing*

 

[Madonna3]

Ok sorry I just didn't understand what you were going for.

I believe this might be what Wiki's numbers are basing off of for the Mark VI ones in use. It's the best that I could find:

{ETA: I counted 20 "seats" so that's where they are getting that off of-however the seats aren't actually partitioned off as seats and instead are benches so that number could vary depending on peope's size. When I did a google search the pic I pasted in shows from WDWMAGIC forums from a couple years ago.}
View attachment 232175

Pic of being basically in the middle so on the other side of camera would be the back bench.
View attachment 232176

For scale of people inside:
View attachment 232177

That being said I'm sure the 40 people standing is based probably off of no strollers/ecv as clearly those will take up more room lessening the number of people standing and the numbers are probably based off of being squeezed in there versus having wiggle room.

*Again I'm just basing off of wiki so their numbers could be off for sure but it's something to go off of at least for me to understand the gondola sizing*

First, thank you for all the pics. You really went out of your way to help me visualize this. However, now that I've seen it and you remind me about scooters/wheelchairs, yeah I guess with those elements removed the capacity could be that high.

HOWEVER, that brings up ANOTHER issue:

If the gondola capacity is "10" and the monorails are "60", but we have evidence the monorails probably operate at half that capacity due to strollers/wheelchairs/different sized people, then do the gondolas really have a capacity of 10?

 

[Q-man]

non

 

[Madonna3]

Why are we arguing over monorail capacity in the gondola thread?

we're not arguing and my fellow monorail conspirators answered it exact as to why we're discussing it

I knew I wasn't using those correctly.

ETA: That does make the recent bachelor party monorail upgrade more understandable now, though.

I can't tell you how many pics we have of me dancing on the monorail poles. My momma raised a classy lady

 

[Q-man]

I could see an expansion to include the Southwest area of the park (AKL, DAK, BB, CSR) but I don't think the monorail has a big chance of going anywhere, unless there's some serious infrastructure issues with it. The cost to demolish it would be high, and replacing it wouldn't be a walk in the park. Who knows anyways - these companies don't think beyond the next quarter profits, never mind having a 20 year plan for resort transportation.

As I said this has 3 main functions in order of importance:
1) Selling a DVC resort. (remeber - $900 million dollar "deluxe" in Disney's pocket in 5 years)
2) Upselling and/or filling more consistently CBR/AOA/Pop. ($20-30 million per year)
3) Reducing transportation staffing. (A possible minor benefit -saving maybe $2-5 million per year.)

Without the DVC - this would never be happening. There has to be some benefit to replacing the monorail besides slightly lower maintenance fees.

IF the numbers are correct in the linked article this is a prototype for rolling it out across the park. Because - MONEY.

So we’ve got a more magical transportation system that is also more efficient at moving guests. Additionally, the gondola system will require fewer cast members to operate. A bus system connecting Epcot, Disney’s Hollywood Studios, and three hotels, is basically 5 routes. Moving 2200 people per hour across 5 routes is roughly 10,000 people per hour, which would require 100 busses according to Doppelmayr. At one driver per bus plus support personnel, that’s around 120 cast members. A gondola system can be safely operated with an order of magnitude fewer cast members. Four stations, staffed with 3-6 cast members each, is a huge improvement in labor costs.

The outlook for energy consumption is similarly amazing. I won’t go into the details here, but the energy requirement for the motors the cable of the Whistler system is less than 3000 kWh per day. At a cost of 12c per kWh, that’s $360 per day to operate the gondola. At today’s rates, that buys you around 150 gallons of diesel. Can you operate 100 busses on 150 gallons of fuel per day? Even if you take into account all the efficiencies Disney likely squeezes out of their bus operation, it’s still way cheaper to operate a gondola, not to mention the environmental benefits.

http://wdwnt.com/blog/2017/04/depth-speculation-disney-world-gondola-project-will-take-shape/

100 buses an hour and starting bus driver pay is $12/hr. Buses get about 2.5 mpg and diesel is over $2.50 a gallon. Pop to Epcot parking is 6 miles and a bus does this twice an hour for a total of 24 miles is about $25 an hour in fuel. $37/hr x 100= $3,700 an hour times 8 hours is close to $30K per shift. Driver pay alone would be $10K per shift and that doesn't include benefits, administration, uniforms, etc. But fuel is an even bigger saving. They are claiming that gondola system is less than $400 a day versus $2,500 an hour for the same bus capacity. That is over $200,000 a week in savings with is north of $10 million for the year. Now that article says Disney's buses cost between $500-700K and have a 12 year life. So lets say $50K a year times a hundred buses is $5mil a year without maintenance costs.

 

[Madonna3]

100 buses an hour and starting bus driver pay is $12/hr. Buses get about 2.5 mpg and diesel is over $2.50 a gallon. Pop to Epcot parking is 6 miles and a bus does this twice an hour for a total of 24 miles is about $25 an hour in fuel. $37/hr x 1000= $37,000 an hour times 8 hours is close to $300K per shift. Driver pay alone would be $100K per shift and that doesn't include benefits, administration, uniforms, etc. $2-5million in transportation staff costs be would reached within a month not a year. But fuel is an even bigger saving. They are claiming that gondola system is less than $400 a day versus $25K an hour for the same buses capacity. That is over $2mil a week in savings with is north of $100 million for the year. Now that article says Disney's buses cost between $500-700K and have a 12 year life. So lets say $50K a year times a thousand buses is $50mil a year without maintenance costs. Add it all up it that is around $200 mil a year to move the same number of people with buses.

Gonna have to dispute that. I have spent some time trying to research that number and I can't find it. If the buses really only got 2.5mpg and have a 125 gallon tank, then that's only 312 miles before they need a refill. Disney uses some natural gas buses and some hybrids so while I get your point, I dispute the 2.5mpg figure.

 

[jknezek]

First, thank you for all the pics. You really went out of your way to help me visualize this. However, now that I've seen it and you remind me about scooters/wheelchairs, yeah I guess with those elements removed the capacity could be that high.

HOWEVER, that brings up ANOTHER issue:

If the gondola capacity is "10" and the monorails are "60", but we have evidence the monorails probably operate at half that capacity due to strollers/wheelchairs/different sized people, then do the gondolas really have a capacity of 10?

No. The max capacity does not change. What changes is the real life application. While it may feel like 1 in 10 people at Disney is driving over your toes or slamming into your shins on an ECV, or causing the buses to be an even more irritating way to travel, the actual numbers are a lot lower. I've been on packed buses that have none, though that is a rarer occurrence these days than it used to be. I bet the average is less than 1 per bus throughout the day, though higher obviously a peak times. If the buses hold 60 people sitting and standing, that gives you a good idea of the true ratio. So you send off 6 cars filled with 10 people for every 1 car filled with 5 and an ECV.

I think the bigger problem is strollers, as they are far more common than ECVs. If Disney does not require strollers to be folded before getting on the gondolas, I doubt they run near the 10 person capacity. If they do, then I think you are likely to get closer to full load out when there is a line.

 

[jknezek]

Gonna have to dispute that. I have spent some time trying to research that number and I can't find it. If the buses really only got 2.5mpg and have a 125 gallon tank, then that's only 312 miles before they need a refill. Disney uses some natural gas buses and some hybrids so while I get your point, I dispute the 2.5mpg figure.

I'm going to agree with this. There is no way those buses aren't getting 5mpg around Disney. In NYC? Sure I could see 2.5, but not around the Disney property. I had a family friend who retired not long ago as supervisor of my home town's school bus fleet. Those buses averaged 3.5 to 8 mpg on pickup/drop off routes and 9-10 on the highway between 60 and 65mph. Given a school bus is even more stop/start mode and just as much idle mode as a Disney bus, I have to think the Disney buses would do better than 3.5 mpg. And yes, these were air conditioned school buses.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

First, thank you for all the pics. You really went out of your way to help me visualize this.

No problem . Honestly I'm a visual person for a lot of things so when you brought that up I wanted to dig around myself so the visuals helped me see where they might be getting at. Might sound weird but it helped me visualize the gonolas based on what information we know about them.

If the gondola capacity is "10" and the monorails are "60", but we have evidence the monorails probably operate at half that capacity due to strollers/wheelchairs/different sized people, then do the gondolas really have a capacity of 10?

Well it's a good "hmmm moment". I'm guessing that for the most part it's just easier to base capacity on an average-sized adult and not include all the other variables that can impact how many actual standing people there are. Some people will have smaller strollers some will have larger ones, etc. You'll have some times where you won't encounter many if any strollers and whatnot.

As far as the gondola goes, aside from the variables of everyone standing and the whole I'm guessing being an average-sized adult being used for capacity level, it likely will change what the specific gondola you happen to be in can feasible fit based on who is around you waiting to load. I don't think they are counting on much wiggle room for people even if they have the gondolas loading fairly quickly so if you happen to be waiting with someone who has a larger stroller (like the ones with the more rugged wheels for example) it would impact the number of people who could feasible fit.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

No. The max capacity does not change. What changes is the real life application. While it may feel like 1 in 10 people at Disney is driving over your toes or slamming into your shins on an ECV, or causing the buses to be an even more irritating way to travel, the actual numbers are a lot lower. I've been on packed buses that have none, though that is a rarer occurrence these days than it used to be. I bet the average is less than 1 per bus throughout the day, though higher obviously a peak times. If the buses hold 60 people sitting and standing, that gives you a good idea of the true ratio. So you send off 6 cars filled with 10 people for every 1 car filled with 5 and an ECV.

I think the bigger problem is strollers, as they are far more common than ECVs. If Disney does not require strollers to be folded before getting on the gondolas, I doubt they run near the 10 person capacity. If they do, then I think you are likely to get closer to full load out when there is a line.

You bring up something that I hadn't thought about (I can't remember if it had been mentioned before on this thread). Will they require strollers to be folded up or will they allow for strollers to be loaded without folding up.

If everyone complied and folded up the strollers if that was what was being required then that could speed up loading since you won't have the maneuvering of the wheels from loading platform to gondola and the adjusting of the stroller to fit within the gondola in a desired way. Even with people carrying them or leaning them up against the walls it would allow more people to load.

We don't have them at our airport where I'm at but whenever I'm at an airport that has a monorail-esque transportation system to get from terminal to terminal or area to area it can go very quickly with loading when people don't have bulkier suitcases or ones where the wheels have issues working or transitioning from the loading platform to the transportation system.

However that would mean everyone would need to comply with folding it up and have it already folded up to be ready for the gondola to come.

 

[skier_pete]

Only 10 people per gondola seems very low

If this is true then I can see them being very small cabins that probably WONT have AC and might even be open air

It appears they are getting the D-Line: Omega IV-10 SI D since it can hold 10 people.

A 10-person gondola is quite small. The ski areas I've been to with these gondolas DO cram in 10 people into these gondolas, but you have to get VERY cozy. (Think packed full bus back to Pop Century after Fantasmic lets out cozy.) When they say "10-person" that is the maximum capacity. More likely scenario is they would try to put around 8 people in a 10-person unit. Less with strollers.

If the gondola capacity is "10" and the monorails are "60", but we have evidence the monorails probably operate at half that capacity due to strollers/wheelchairs/different sized people, then do the gondolas really have a capacity of 10?

Strollers I think it is a situation similar to a bus - you are going to HAVE to fold up your stroller. Now there certainly are some giant strollers, but all are required to be folded on buses.

Wheelchairs I am sure they will be able to wheel on without issues, and may even have a certain number of cabins with fold-up seats for this purpose.

I still don't have a good concept of how they handle ECVs. I am sure that they have thought of this.

No. The max capacity does not change. What changes is the real life application. While it may feel like 1 in 10 people at Disney is driving over your toes or slamming into your shins on an ECV, or causing the buses to be an even more irritating way to travel, the actual numbers are a lot lower. I've been on packed buses that have none, though that is a rarer occurrence these days than it used to be. I bet the average is less than 1 per bus throughout the day, though higher obviously a peak times. If the buses hold 60 people sitting and standing, that gives you a good idea of the true ratio. So you send off 6 cars filled with 10 people for every 1 car filled with 5 and an ECV.

I think even at this you are vastly over-estimating the number of ECVs. If you say 1 in 60 people has an ECV, that means that for a typical day at MK with 40,000 guests, there are almost 700 ECVs driving around. I think the total is more on an average somewhere around 100-200. I think the illusion of more comes from whenever you see one, it stands out because it takes up so much space relative to the average person/stroller. I would bet if you spent a few hours walking around MK, you would be hard pressed to find 100 of them - (can only count each one once).

That said, they will need to deal with it, whether by requiring ECVs to use a bus instead, or by having the option for the gondolas. Again, this is the one aspect that sort of has me baffled - they would almost definitely had to have the rider dismount and have CMs park them onto the gondola similar to what they do with the buses.

 

[jknezek]

I think even at this you are vastly over-estimating the number of ECVs. If you say 1 in 60 people has an ECV, that means that for a typical day at MK with 40,000 guests, there are almost 700 ECVs driving around. I think the total is more on an average somewhere around 100-200. I think the illusion of more comes from whenever you see one, it stands out because it takes up so much space relative to the average person/stroller. I would bet if you spent a few hours walking around MK, you would be hard pressed to find 100 of them - (can only count each one once).

That said, they will need to deal with it, whether by requiring ECVs to use a bus instead, or by having the option for the gondolas. Again, this is the one aspect that sort of has me baffled - they would almost definitely had to have the rider dismount and have CMs park them onto the gondola similar to what they do with the buses.

You are no doubt correct. I overstated it because it feels like every bus you get on is waiting on the kneeling, then the ramp, then the strap down. But I also tend to go for rope drop so that probably overstates it quite significantly.

 

[Madonna3]

A 10-person gondola is quite small. The ski areas I've been to with these gondolas DO cram in 10 people into these gondolas, but you have to get VERY cozy. (Think packed full bus back to Pop Century after Fantasmic lets out cozy.) When they say "10-person" that is the maximum capacity. More likely scenario is they would try to put around 8 people in a 10-person unit. Less with strollers.



Strollers I think it is a situation similar to a bus - you are going to HAVE to fold up your stroller. Now there certainly are some giant strollers, but all are required to be folded on buses.

Wheelchairs I am sure they will be able to wheel on without issues, and may even have a certain number of cabins with fold-up seats for this purpose.

I still don't have a good concept of how they handle ECVs. I am sure that they have thought of this.



I think even at this you are vastly over-estimating the number of ECVs. If you say 1 in 60 people has an ECV, that means that for a typical day at MK with 40,000 guests, there are almost 700 ECVs driving around. I think the total is more on an average somewhere around 100-200. I think the illusion of more comes from whenever you see one, it stands out because it takes up so much space relative to the average person/stroller. I would bet if you spent a few hours walking around MK, you would be hard pressed to find 100 of them - (can only count each one once).

That said, they will need to deal with it, whether by requiring ECVs to use a bus instead, or by having the option for the gondolas. Again, this is the one aspect that sort of has me baffled - they would almost definitely had to have the rider dismount and have CMs park them onto the gondola similar to what they do with the buses.

I don't think they can legally do that, BUT they can legally require them to xfer to non-motorized transport. I know scooters are sometimes refused access to the boats when the water is too low for safety, so perhaps these won't be "safe" for ECV's.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

No. The max capacity does not change. What changes is the real life application. While it may feel like 1 in 10 people at Disney is driving over your toes or slamming into your shins on an ECV, or causing the buses to be an even more irritating way to travel, the actual numbers are a lot lower. I've been on packed buses that have none, though that is a rarer occurrence these days than it used to be. I bet the average is less than 1 per bus throughout the day, though higher obviously a peak times. If the buses hold 60 people sitting and standing, that gives you a good idea of the true ratio. So you send off 6 cars filled with 10 people for every 1 car filled with 5 and an ECV.

I think the bigger problem is strollers, as they are far more common than ECVs. If Disney does not require strollers to be folded before getting on the gondolas, I doubt they run near the 10 person capacity. If they do, then I think you are likely to get closer to full load out when there is a line.

Well, it could also be that they are large enough to fit more than 10 people (or, say, 10 people and 3 strollers) - but due to weight would only let 10 adults on or something like that

Not sure if the "10 people" means 10 adults or inclusive of kids, but it can vary a lot how much "10 humans" would take up from a volume stand point as well as weight