Scooter flipped over on boat dock

[SueM in MN]

From the photos it looks like the dock is a floating one, not fixed, so it should line up with the boat pretty much the same no matter the height of the water. The weight of passengers in the boat could make the boat slightly higher or lower though. The dock could also get hung up on a post, but that would make the dock noticeably tilted.

I mentioned that particular dock does float, but seems to float within some bounds. It’s also a very large dock and some parts are connected to other by float adjustable ramps.

The captains always load the wheelchair/ECV onto an empty boat and in our experience, at least, they always have other passengers get off the boat before unloading the wheelchair/ECV.
So there is no weight of passengers to make a difference.
The only exceptions have been when the captain has needed the passengers’s weight in order to adjust the level of the boat. In those cases, the captain explained what he wanted the passengers to do and why.

 

[GranJan1]

Wow thanks for the pictures of the dock. I shutter when I see how very narrow the dock is when the ramp is there. I know the angle of the ramp that day was much steeper. Maybe the water was higher? It is highly possible that the ramp was not properly placed.

Hubby hates busses too! We drive our own vehicle with a ramp inside and that way we does not have to ride the busses. I am sure he will do the boats again on another trip but it just was not comfortable for his this time.

Thanks so much for the pictures. They really clearly show the docking area!

I don't blame him for disliking the buses. The ramps on the buses are sometimes more like a zig-zag than a smooth incline. My power chair almost tipped backwards when going up a bus ramp. The little anti-tip wheels stopped it from going over. After that my husband held the back of my chair going up or down. Lots of ramps seem unsafe to me.

 

[BillSears]

I am certain that the bus ramps do not meet the 1 foot length for every inch in height that the ADA recommends. It's not too bad when they lower down onto a sidewalk but places like the MK loading area go right to the street level ground. When that happens the ramp is a bit too steep for me to do comfortably/safely going up. Even going down I can't do it on 4 wheels because I feel I'd tip over forward, I pop a wheelie and go down with my front 2 wheels in the air.

 

[GranJan1]

I am certain that the bus ramps do not meet the 1 foot length for every inch in height that the ADA recommends. It's not too bad when they lower down onto a sidewalk but places like the MK loading area go right to the street level ground. When that happens the ramp is a bit too steep for me to do comfortably/safely going up. Even going down I can't do it on 4 wheels because I feel I'd tip over forward, I pop a wheelie and go down with my front 2 wheels in the air.

When I was using a scooter, I didn't feel like I'd tip forward when going down ramps. The steering column gave me something to support myself plus the extra wheels in front made it seem less likely to tip. I took my power chair for the 1st time last trip & loved how much easier it was to maneuver in small spaces but was terrified on some ramps. Going up isn't so bad since you can lean forward. Going down, you can't lean back. I don't have one of those expensive leveling chairs. Even if the chair doesn't tip, I feel like I'm going to get dumped out. My husband jokingly says I need a seatbelt. He thinks I'm just a big chicken. Reading about this accident proves my fears are justified.

 

[GranJan1]

Also, BillSears, I'm not talented enough to pop a wheelie and go on 2 wheels. It's terrible that you feel you need to do that to keep from tipping forward. I assume you use a manual chair?

 

[cobright]

I am certain that the bus ramps do not meet the 1 foot length for every inch in height that the ADA recommends. It's not too bad when they lower down onto a sidewalk but places like the MK loading area go right to the street level ground. When that happens the ramp is a bit too steep for me to do comfortably/safely going up. Even going down I can't do it on 4 wheels because I feel I'd tip over forward, I pop a wheelie and go down with my front 2 wheels in the air.

I've seen the ramps end up pretty steep. Not too bad for a long ecv, but the short base of a chair can have you feeling like your looking over the edge of a cliff.

That said... It's likely the bus ramp was within the letter of the law, so to speak. For ramps to buses or transit systems the ada specifies a standard of between 1:4 and 1:8 incline depending on length of span and total height being transitioned.

If you like this sort of reading, there's a guide I'll link that covers this on page 34... https://www.access-board.gov/attachments/article/721/buses.pdf

 

[GranJan1]

I've seen the ramps end up pretty steep. Not too bad for a long ecv, but the short base of a chair can have you feeling like your looking over the edge of a cliff.

That said... It's likely the bus ramp was within the letter of the law, so to speak. For ramps to buses or transit systems the ada specifies a standard of between 1:4 and 1:8 incline depending on length of span and total height being transitioned.

If you like this sort of reading, there's a guide I'll link that covers this on page 34... https://www.access-board.gov/attachments/article/721/buses.pdf

Would the incline be required to be a smooth incline, rather than the zig zag incline on many of the bus ramps at WDW this past December? I've never noticed this before. On our upcoming March trip, if I come across many ramps of this type, I may just have to go back to using an ECV rather than my chair. Some buses had ramps that were fine but most were a little frightening.

 

[cobright]

Would the incline be required to be a smooth incline, rather than the zig zag incline on many of the bus ramps at WDW this past December? I've never noticed this before. On our upcoming March trip, if I come across many ramps of this type, I may just have to go back to using an ECV rather than my chair. Some buses had ramps that were fine but most were a little frightening.

I'm not following the zig-zag incline bit. Do you mean the texture of the metal ramp itself?

That''s kind of an interesting proviso itself. There is a recommended minimum friction for the ramp to keep it from being slippery. But the tread pattern used on the ramp to accomplish this may not have any part raised more than 1/4".

Switching back to an ecv will help you handle ramps a little better but at such a loss to overall agility. I've said before, my legs work just fine, my interest and experience co es from helping a mobility compromised friend deal with her shoddy legs. If you're going g to be stuck in that thing you may need to invest in some improvements. You can likely have booms made for your undriven wheels to extend the wheelbase just while going up or down inclines. These can be kicked out to get you over a curb as well. It's all well and good to require sidewalks get cut down to let the wheels roll easily ... But sometimes you need to jay-walk.

 

[GranJan1]

I'm not following the zig-zag incline bit. Do you mean the texture of the metal ramp itself?

That''s kind of an interesting proviso itself. There is a recommended minimum friction for the ramp to keep it from being slippery. But the tread pattern used on the ramp to accomplish this may not have any part raised more than 1/4".

Switching back to an ecv will help you handle ramps a little better but at such a loss to overall agility. I've said before, my legs work just fine, my interest and experience co es from helping a mobility compromised friend deal with her shoddy legs. If you're going g to be stuck in that thing you may need to invest in some improvements. You can likely have booms made for your undriven wheels to extend the wheelbase just while going up or down inclines. These can be kicked out to get you over a curb as well. It's all well and good to require sidewalks get cut down to let the wheels roll easily ... But sometimes you need to jay-walk.

I wish I could draw a picture. I don't mean texture. The ramp would have a section that was nearly level, then a section that sloped, then another level section followed by a sloped section. These sections were only about a foot in length so the back wheels of a chair would be on a the level section while the front would be at the bottom of a sloped section, making the chair tipped forward enough to make you feel unsafe. I can't believe that's the way the ramps were intended to be, not all were that way. My husband thinks some of the buses are older & the ramps don't function properly.

 

[SueM in MN]

Would the incline be required to be a smooth incline, rather than the zig zag incline on many of the bus ramps at WDW this past December? I've never noticed this before. On our upcoming March trip, if I come across many ramps of this type, I may just have to go back to using an ECV rather than my chair. Some buses had ramps that were fine but most were a little frightening.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by the zigzag even with the further description, but I think I might know.
I do have some general insight about the bus ramps and why some seem steeper than others.

In the ‘way past’ all the accessible buses had lifts and the bus stops, for the most part had curbs. Since the lift ‘deposits’ you flat on the ground, it didn’t matter if there was a curb or not.

Whether there is a curb or not makes a big difference for the ramp buses. The slope or how steep the ramp is depends on how high above the ground the floor of the bus is. If there is a curb, the distance is smaller, so the ramp is less steep.
But, the park bus stops don’t have curbs and at the resorts, most of the time the buses stop in the ramped part of the bus stop, not the part with a curb.

All of the ramp buses kneel, which lowers the door side closer to the ground. That helps with the steepness too. Some of the different types of buses kneel closer to the ground than others. And, the different buses have a little different type of ramp.
These 2 videos might be what you calling the zigzag ramp. Beside the ramp having a bit of a bump where it hinges (and looking like each section is 2 pieces), there are little uneven parts next to the ramp:

I can’t find pictures right now, but there are 2 other ramps I can think of that fold out flatter. Each section only has 1 piece. One of those buses has the uneven side parts, but the other is more flat.

 

[BillSears]

I've seen the ramps end up pretty steep. Not too bad for a long ecv, but the short base of a chair can have you feeling like your looking over the edge of a cliff.

That said... It's likely the bus ramp was within the letter of the law, so to speak. For ramps to buses or transit systems the ada specifies a standard of between 1:4 and 1:8 incline depending on length of span and total height being transitioned.

If you like this sort of reading, there's a guide I'll link that covers this on page 34... https://www.access-board.gov/attachments/article/721/buses.pdf

Yea, I guess technically it's legal. But if fixed ramps should be 1 to 12 for a safe ramp I feel the bus ramps shouldn't be 3 times as steep.

I think the zig zag GranJan1 is talking about is the bumps. The ramps aren't smooth going up. You get a reasonable ramp towards the bottom and then bam all of a sudden the ramp becomes much steeper. Going up this almost brings me to a stop as I hit that steep part, then when I push harder to get over it I feel like I'm going to tip backward. Going down it's even worse because my chair is leaning down forward and all of a sudden my small wheels hit a bump which makes it feel like I'm going to tip over forward.

For me this is only a problem at the loading areas without a curb like the MK and EPCOT(?). I think Disney learned for the newer parks and all of the resorts and have curbs to make loading easier.

E.T.A. Thinking about it a bit it was probably just a happy coincidence that DHS and AK have curbs. They were still probably using buses with lifts when DHS was build so the curb/bus ramp wasn't an issue.

 

[cobright]

Yea, I guess technically it's legal. But if fixed ramps should be 1 to 12 for a safe ramp I feel the bus ramps shouldn't be 3 times as steep.

I think the zig zag GranJan1 is talking about is the bumps. The ramps aren't smooth going up. You get a reasonable ramp towards the bottom and then bam all of a sudden the ramp becomes much steeper. [...]

For me this is only a problem at the loading areas without a curb like the MK and EPCOT(?). I think Disney learned for the newer parks and all of the resorts and have curbs to make loading easier.

E.T.A. Thinking about it a bit it was probably just a happy coincidence that DHS and AK have curbs. They were still probably using buses with lifts when DHS was build so the curb/bus ramp wasn't an issue.

That steep but at the end actually serves a purpose. In the event of the bus unloading to a curb or platform that is above the level of the bus floor, dropping a straight ramp would result in a gap between the sidewalk and the end of the ramp. Having a short bit that angles down ensures that the edge of the ramp meets the ground.

Unfortunately, making a chair very narrow and short has great advantages in every instance except managing inclines. It's something of a liability in that instance. Ways to overcome it but very few solutions that are both cheap and pretty.

 

[Toffeewoffy]

I have used the boat on this very dock a couple of times myself. Only once have we returned to OKW on the boat, though - the other times we actually used the bus. Now they've moved the bus stop right up away from everything else, it'll be the boat again this coming trip.

Reading this I was trying desperately to remember whether I reversed off or did a 3-point turn in the boat and came off head first. I really can't remember - and it was only in September! However, I did notice that as people got off the boat got higher and higher in the water. Instead of making everyone get off first, it would probably make more sense for the captain to release only enough people to make the boat level with the dock so the scooter (or even wheelchairs) can get off more easily. The length of the ramp, as you can see from the picture, makes it highly likely to not have any manoeuvre room once the front wheel has left the ramp. There is a low level pole round the edge so you can't just roll straight into the water, but that isn't the point.

 

[Twende]

I have used the boat on this very dock a couple of times myself. Only once have we returned to OKW on the boat, though - the other times we actually used the bus. Now they've moved the bus stop right up away from everything else, it'll be the boat again this coming trip.

Reading this I was trying desperately to remember whether I reversed off or did a 3-point turn in the boat and came off head first. I really can't remember - and it was only in September! However, I did notice that as people got off the boat got higher and higher in the water. Instead of making everyone get off first, it would probably make more sense for the captain to release only enough people to make the boat level with the dock so the scooter (or even wheelchairs) can get off more easily. The length of the ramp, as you can see from the picture, makes it highly likely to not have any manoeuvre room once the front wheel has left the ramp. There is a low level pole round the edge so you can't just roll straight into the water, but that isn't the point.

Today we were just discussing this with a group of friends. We got to remembering that DH and I were the last ones off the boat and therefore like you just said, the boat was higher in the water! The captain should have let DH off when the boat and the dock were closer to level!