Lydiard Training

I'd say to ask those people, "why?" Why do they "have to do 20 miles"? What's the justification for it? It would be interesting to hear their answers. Do they have a physiological reason, a mental reason, a scientific reason, an experience reason, etc.?

It's interesting that a lot of reputable novice plans (such as Higdon's) include 20-milers. Like DopeyBadger, I'm not a huge fan of them, mostly because they're usually boring and I want to be doing something else by Mile 18 or so! I usually top out at 14-16 mile long runs when training for a marathon these days, but before my first, I was following an intermediate Higdon plan and ran two 20-milers. I think one reason so many novice plans include them is because of the psychological factor - to a first timer, 26.2 is still a huge mental barrier. Even if you've done a bunch of halfs, that's still just HALF of what you'll be doing for your first full. 20 miles is a nice round number and a decent bridge between the half and the full. Finishing 20 told me I could probably finish 26.2.
 
All this info has been helpful and will re-read. I too am training for 2018 Dopey and my running group changed this year to the Lydiard (have a feeling I'm running with Jacksmom!!) My concern as well as others in my group is that we are 12+, so quite a few of us complete HM in 2:45-3:00 ranges. Our longest runs range from 8-10 miles equating to 1:54 to 2:20 time. Most of us follow galloway run/walk/run. And starting out we have all pretty much run the entire time allotted now (which we are all amazed about). When we get tired we do go back to walk breaks, but there are fewer of them. The heat and humidity is not helping. Will our training result in the same way as those running faster?

I appreciate the knowledge that the long run is more like the last portion of the race and not the beginning. We all have marathons in October, some it will be their first, for myself my second.
 
@Princess_Micki - I'm going to try and break down what you said to make sure I've got all the pieces right.

My concern as well as others in my group is that we are 12+, so quite a few of us complete HM in 2:45-3:00 ranges.

So, you're saying that your current fitness has you at around a 12 min/mile HM pace which is a 2:45-3:00 HM finish time.

Our longest runs range from 8-10 miles equating to 1:54 to 2:20 time.

This looks correct to me. The long run training pace for a 2:45 HM is a 14:04 min/mile (per a calculator I use). This would be roughly 1:54 to 2:20 in duration (8*14:04 and 10*14:04).

Most of us follow galloway run/walk/run. And starting out we have all pretty much run the entire time allotted now (which we are all amazed about).

To be clear, you used to use run/walk. But while doing this plan, you have been doing continuous running. Thus, the 8 miler at 1:54 is done at a 14:04 min/mile with a continuous running style (no planned walking breaks).

When we get tired we do go back to walk breaks, but there are fewer of them.

Sounds like you're getting stronger and finding value in the slow down mindset.

The heat and humidity is not helping.

Completely understand this. This is where I tell my runners to default to either "perceived effort" or a temperature + dew point adjustment.

-The perceived effort method is to use your memory of a previous long run under ideal conditions. What did it feel like to run that assigned pace? Now on a non-ideal weather day, like one with a high T+D, try matching the effort of the ideal day rather than than pace. In all likelihood, you'll run even slower, but your body will perceive the workout as similar (even though slower).

-A temperature + dew point adjustment would be like the following based on your current pacing (a 2:45 HM).

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So under ideal conditions (T+D of 100 or less), the assigned pace would be a 14:04 min/mile. But in super hot/humid conditions (like a 80F temperature and 70 dew point = 150 T+D), then the pace can be adjusted. The pace at 150 T+D would be 14:42 min/mile instead.

This chart is just an example though. Individuals tolerate different temperatures differently and the more you train in non-ideal conditions during a training cycle the more the body will adapt. At the beginning of my current cycle I had to make adjustments to complete the training with the same perceived effort. After about 8 weeks of training in these conditions, my body has made some heat acclimation adaptations to allow me to run without adjustments.

Will our training result in the same way as those running faster?

Yes, I'm quite confident you will see similar gains regardless of whether you're aiming for a 2:45 HM or a 1:45 HM. Those doing the faster running will merely run more miles to accomplish the same task. I like to view running in terms of relative pace (for current fitness) x duration. When you multiply these together (paceXdistance) you get mileage. This means you and a faster person each run 70% effort for 120 minutes will yield very similar benefits. The other runner may cover 18 miles in 120 minutes and you 8 miles. But theoretically, the same benefit would be yielded. As a % improvement over a given period of time, you're likely to see more gains than a faster runner rather than less.
 

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Something else to keep in mind is the max duration in your training. Many of those that follow Lydiard style training max at 150-180 minutes. Seems like it wouldn't be enough mileage for someone on the slower end of the spectrum, but if you're balancing that out with some good training during the week then you'll be fine. I've done 3.5-4 HR training runs and 2.5 max runs. I've always performed better since I started capping at 2.5 hrs.
 
This looks correct to me. The long run training pace for a 2:45 HM is a 14:04 min/mile (per a calculator I use). This would be roughly 1:54 to 2:20 in duration (8*14:04 and 10*14:04).

What calculator would this be? I am currently training to try and break 4hrs in October but am worried I am not training fast enough. What would your calculator recommend for tempo pace and long run pace?
 
What calculator would this be?

I use the Hansons race equivalency calculator (link). It's based on the Peter Riegel formula and the Hansons philosophy on pacing.

I am currently training to try and break 4hrs in October but am worried I am not training fast enough. What would your calculator recommend for tempo pace and long run pace?

So a person with a current fitness of a 4 hour marathon would train at the following paces:

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A couple things to keep in mind:

1) Make sure that you choose the training paces based on your current fitness and not a goal pace (not necessarily just aimed at you, but I know others will read this advice). You can make this determination using the race equivalency calculator. Your goal is a 4 hour marathon. For example, let's say in May 2017 (so about 2 months ago) you ran a 5k in 25:52 as your PR. But you really really want to break 4 hrs in the marathon in October. My advice is to train at a 25:52 5k, not a 4 hour marathon pace. This means your pace chart would look like the following instead:

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The pacing isn't that different, but it really can matter. Can you survive training at 4 hour marathon pacing when your 5k is 25:52? Sure. But it puts you at a higher risk for injury because you'll be pushing the limits on physiologically based pacing. The better long term gains will be made with consistent training at where you are and not where you want to be. Where you can really start to see the overlap is the Marathon Tempo (9:09) of where you want to be and HM Tempo (9:06) of where you are. If you try and do a 9 mile M Tempo run, then in reality your body would perceive it as a 9 mile HM Tempo run. A 9 mile M Tempo run is reasonable, but a 9 mile HM Tempo run is really pushing it too far to be a useful training run. So you can see why training where you are can really matter in the big picture.

Now during the course of the training you may hit certain benchmarks that can suggest you can move the pacing up because your current fitness has improved. Only then would I consider moving the training paces faster. For my first Hansons cycle in Summer 2015, my HM PR was a 1:49:24 (occurred in April 2015). I chose pacing based on a 1:49 HM (race equivalent of 3:47) and went with 3:45 (because back then the Hansons calculator only went in increments of 5 min until I cracked the code and wrote my own Hansons calculator). I trained at a 3:45 M goal pace. I ran a 1:45 HM about 6 weeks prior to race day (which predicted a 3:41 marathon). On race day, I ran a 3:38. So just because you train at a current fitness slower than your desired goal pace (like 4:08 instead of 4:00), you might very well still run faster if you've put in a good training cycle.

2) In my experience, it's usually not someone not training fast enough, but training too fast. About 80% of your total training should be at long run pace or slower. So for someone whose current fitness is a 4 hour marathon, that would be 80% of the training at a 9:53 min/mile or slower. The remaining 20% of the training would consist of M Tempo and maybe some 5k/10k interval training. This is because the marathon is a 99% aerobic event which means the slow running will build the endurance necessary to complete the race fast and comfortably. Pacing beyond M Tempo can help some, but not nearly as much as the pacing that's much slower.

3) Lastly, for someone with a current fitness of a 4 hour marathon and is a continuous runner (not sure whether you are or not) I recommend capping the long run at 15 miles. I follow and make training plans for others that maxes the long run at 150 minutes (2.5 hrs) for continuous runners.

Screen Shot 2017-07-24 at 6.40.14 PM.png

For a 4 hour marathon that would be 15 miles. Seems too short, but there are a lot of good reasons that I cover in several links as to why it works. Check out all of the links for more information on why these philosophies work (link).

Hope this helps!
 


I am a continuous runner who has run one marathon a year for the past 3 years. I am following Higdon Intermediate 2 right now which has a couple 20-milers. Do you have a sample plan that maxes at 15 miles to share? I would be interested in seeing it, although I do think it sounds too short for me.
 
I am a continuous runner who has run one marathon a year for the past 3 years. I am following Higdon Intermediate 2 right now which has a couple 20-milers. Do you have a sample plan that maxes at 15 miles to share? I would be interested in seeing it, although I do think it sounds too short for me.

My philosophy is that every training plan should be custom to the person using it. So, I make unique plans. Sometimes they're 4 days, 5 days, 6 days... Sometimes they have one hard workout per week, sometimes two, sometimes three... Long run on Friday or Saturday or Sunday... Three weekdays and one weekend or 2 weekdays and 2 weekend... I play with a lot of variables based on the feedback I get from an individual (current fitness, injury history, upcoming races, time available to train on different days of the week, upcoming vacations, current training, etc.). So it would be tough for me to share a plan because they were all written to meet certain individual needs and say yeah this what yours would look like. But here are a few marathon examples that cover a wide range of requests.

The last time I did a 20 mile training run was Spring 2015. Since then, I've lowered my marathon PR from 4:20 to 3:20 (and hoping to break 3:00 in October).
 

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That's super interesting- thanks for sharing. I think Example 5 is closest to my training style but the low mileage is scary, even having read your post on the theory. I am running my marathon on October 15th and am supposed to be running 16 miles this Sunday already with my current plan.

I know I can finish the distance no problem and could probably run a 4:15-4:20 marathon today. But I don't know what is the best way to shave more time in the next 10 or so weeks. I'm currently running 4-5 days per week, one long run and one tempo. My long run pace is about 10:30 but could be faster - I am purposely trying to run easy. My tempo pace is 8:45-9:00. Again, I am conflicted between training faster or running longer. I don't want to burn myself out or cause an injury, but I also want to give this training my very best shot because I have Dopey in 2018 and then another spring marathon and probably won't get another chance to crack 4:00 until 2019.
 
That's super interesting- thanks for sharing. I think Example 5 is closest to my training style but the low mileage is scary, even having read your post on the theory. I am running my marathon on October 15th and am supposed to be running 16 miles this Sunday already with my current plan.

It looks like that specific plan is capped at 5 days per week, 150 min max (no more than 35%), Tues/Wed capped at 60 min, and a second run through the method.

There are certainly more than one way to accomplish a goal. So I can understand all types of methodologies. I think if you really felt the desire to go longer than 150 minutes, then I would consider slowing the "long run" pace to even slower than Hansons current fitness scheduled pace.

I know I can finish the distance no problem and could probably run a 4:15-4:20 marathon today. But I don't know what is the best way to shave more time in the next 10 or so weeks. I'm currently running 4-5 days per week, one long run and one tempo. My long run pace is about 10:30 but could be faster - I am purposely trying to run easy. My tempo pace is 8:45-9:00. Again, I am conflicted between training faster or running longer. I don't want to burn myself out or cause an injury, but I also want to give this training my very best shot because I have Dopey in 2018 and then another spring marathon and probably won't get another chance to crack 4:00 until 2019.

It's definitely a conundrum. My advice would stay consistent though. Train where you are currently and let the chips fall where they may (use a recent race as a judge of current fitness). Maybe a sub-4 wouldn't happen in October, but if you were consistent with your training though next Spring then it's certainly getting closer. But there is a huge gap between 4:15-4:20 and 4:00. That potentially means you'd be training at 10k pace during your "M Tempo" runs. That's a recipe for increasing injury risk and causing too much fatigue going into race day. "Don't survive the training, thrive because of it." I can certainly understand striving for goals. I've been working on a sub-3/BQ for 5 years now (started with a 4:50 in 2012).
 

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