*IMPORTANT* Florida Fake Service Dog Law HB 71 and SB 414

[videogal1]

I'm interested in this information as well because it goes directly against anything I ever knew about service dogs. I cannot imagine a lay person beijng able to train a dog in that manner with much success.

Not to belabor the point but when you realize that over the average six or seven year practical work life span of a Service Dog, depending on the breed, even if a dog has received any degree of initial formal training its knowledge continues to be broadened over time, even after being assigned to a handler. This is true of any dog adopted into a new family. If it were not the case Caesar Romero, the self-proclaimed Dog Whisperer would be out of a job.

Do you think that school-trained Service Dogs get shipped back to their alma mater every time their handler needs the dog to learn or refine a skill? I might have originally stated that all Service Dogs, whether originally school-trained or not are owner-trained to some degree but I was afraid that someone would object and question the source for this perfectly obvious statement.

Let me suggest a few useful books for you to become acquainted with to further the scope of your imagination: Teamwork and Teamwork II by Stewart Nordesson and Lydia Kelley and Lend Me an Ear by Martha Hoffman. I, a mere lay person, who is actually disabled at that, have found their words very useful in the process of developing my ability to"train a dog in that manner with much success", as you put it.

 

[gwynne]

Not to belabor the point but when you realize that over the average six or seven year practical work life span of a Service Dog, depending on the breed, even if a dog has received any degree of initial formal training its knowledge continues to be broadened over time, even after being assigned to a handler. This is true of any dog adopted into a new family. If it were not the case Caesar Romero, the self-proclaimed Dog Whisperer would be out of a job.

Do you think that school-trained Service Dogs get shipped back to their alma mater every time their handler needs the dog to learn or refine a skill? I might have originally stated that all Service Dogs, whether originally school-trained or not are owner-trained to some degree but I was afraid that someone would object and question the source for this perfectly obvious statement.

Let me suggest a few useful books for you to become acquainted with to further the scope of your imagination: Teamwork and Teamwork II by Stewart Nordesson and Lydia Kelley and Lend Me an Ear by Martha Hoffman. I, a mere lay person, who is actually disabled at that, have found their words very useful in the process of developing my ability to"train a dog in that manner with much success", as you put it.

I don't know much about dog training, but I do know who Cesar Romero was. I think the dog trainer is named Cesar Millan.

 

[videogal1]

Oops.

 

[SueM in MN]

I don't know much about dog training, but I do know who Cesar Romero was. I think the dog trainer is named Cesar Millan.

LOL
Cesar Romero = Cisco Kid and 1960s batman TV series villain, The Joker

Cesar Millan = famous dog whisperer and dog product entrepreneur

I am asking people to agree to disagree on the question of owner trained Service Dogs.
There is no requirement under the ADA that Service Dogs be trained by an agency, just that they be individually trained to perform work for a person with a disability.
There are ways to get numbers of Service Dogs placed thru agencies - a lot of them are charitable organizations and keep statistics in terms of how many dogs were trained/placed thru their service.
There are no similar numbers for owner trained Service Dogs since there is no requirement for registration.

There are enough though that well known organizations like these have pages on their website of training tips for owners training their own dogs.
http://servicedogcentral.org/content/owner-training-tips

http://servicedogcentral.org/content/owner-training-tips

This is a Minnesota organization, which will work with owners who train their own dogs:
http://can-do-canines.org/ourdogs/mobility-assist-dogs/owner-trained-assistance-dog-criteria/

 

[SueM in MN]

This video is a demonstration of the skills of one owner trained Service Dog, so owner training does not necessarily mean poorly trained.

I have a Facebook friend who is deaf and has a neuromuscular disease that makes movement difficult. She trained her first Service Dog totally by herself. That dog is now retired and she is training her second. She doesn't post videos in a way that I can share, but the Service Dogs she trained are amazing. The youngest dog makes independent judgments about sounds she needs to be alerted to and can do tasks that have up to 15 steps.
Not everyone has the knowledge, skill or time to train their own Service Dog, but I know quite a few besides her.

 

[videogal1]

This video is a demonstration of the skills of one owner trained Service Dog, so owner training does not necessarily mean poorly trained.

I have a Facebook friend who is deaf and has a neuromuscular disease that makes movement difficult. She trained her first Service Dog totally by herself. That dog is now retired and she is training her second. She doesn't post videos in a way that I can share, but the Service Dogs she trained are amazing. The youngest dog makes independent judgments about sounds she needs to be alerted to and can do tasks that have up to 15 steps. Not everyone has the knowledge, skill or time to train their own Service Dog, but I know quite a few besides her.

I have not noticed that anyone participating in this particular discussion has voted either for or against the benefits of one type of training over another. I don't believe the disagreement in this thread was about the pros and cons of owner-training versus formal agency training but simply the fact that owner training in all its forms is more prevalent. The availability of both possibilities ensures that the needs and preferences of a very diverse group are possible to fulfill.
As you stated, owner-training is not to everyone's taste or ability but there are other reasons why someone would wish to train their own dog if they are so inclined, too:

Some people, besides myself, find that the fine print rules individual agencies require that their clients follow in order to obtain one of their trained dogs are simply unacceptable. The local agency here in central Texas requires that a new client not have any other pets because they say that it distracts the Service Dog from the training and prevents the necessary bonding between dog and handler. Because I have always had, at the same time I am training a dog for a service, other dogs and cats that I have not been inclined to abandon, I have first-hand knowledge that this is not always the case and to prevent someone in the local area from obtaining a school trained dog for such a feeble reason is unnecessarily restrictive. Some agencies take the position that their dogs never actually belong to the target handler and reserve the right to take back the dog at any time if they feel like it. The young lady who had her guide dog snatched away for what the agency called abuse (The dog had gained weight.) and cruelly broke up a successfully working team instead of taking a good hard look at finding a less drastic solution to what they considered an abusive situation.) is a case in point. Another agency, Top Dog, in Arizona, at the time I was looking for a schooled dog years ago, was willing to train a dog I already had but the fees for flying their trainer to Texas for a two-week initial stay, then again later for follow-up training was prohibitive...not to mention the costs for me to to fly to Arizona for the final assessment and certification. I've learned a lot since then.
In many cases of dog misbehavior seen in public occasionally it is not a failure of the trainer or the training but simply a failure of the dog itself. The life of a Service Dog is very controlled and dogs sometimes cannot adjust over the long term. It is not the failure of the training, as some are quick to point their finger at, but a flaw in the selection process that does not detect character flaws that could lead to future problems. This will always be a weak area in the whole process until such time we can read the mind of a dog.

 

[SueM in MN]

I have not noticed that anyone participating in this particular discussion has voted either for or against the benefits of one type of training over another. I don't believe the disagreement in this thread was about the pros and cons of owner-training versus formal agency training but simply the fact that owner training in all its forms is more prevalent. The availability of both possibilities ensures that the needs and preferences of a very diverse group are possible to fulfill.

The bolded point above was specifically what I was commenting on in this post.

There are ways to get numbers of Service Dogs placed thru agencies - a lot of them are charitable organizations and keep statistics in terms of how many dogs were trained/placed thru their service.
There are no similar numbers for owner trained Service Dogs since there is no requirement for registration.

There are enough though that well known organizations like these have pages on their website of training tips for owners training their own dogs.
http://servicedogcentral.org/content/owner-training-tips

http://servicedogcentral.org/content/owner-training-tips

This is a Minnesota organization, which will work with owners who train their own dogs:
http://can-do-canines.org/ourdogs/mobility-assist-dogs/owner-trained-assistance-dog-criteria/

The woman I talked about in the post you quoted was a good example of a person who needed a dog trained for her very specific needs.
Many of the organizations train dogs to be either Service Dogs for disabilities related to hearing or disabilities related to mobility.
In her case, she needed a dog trained for both and felt the best way to get a dog trained to her needs was to train it herself.

There are also agencies that sometimes do things that are cruel (like the one you mentioned that took a dog away). A young lady in my daughter's dance class had been on a waiting list for a dog for several years. One day, she came to class all excited because the agency had finally called and were ready to match her to a dog.
She ended up not getting a dog from them because they said she did not speak clearly enough to give a dog commands (no one in class had trouble understanding her) and that she would not be totally independent with the dog. She ended up getting a dog trained thru Can-Do-Canines (the organization had a different name at that time). That organization has programs for both training dogs and assisting owners to train their own dogs.

 

[Chloe ERRT]

Somewhat off topic:

I contacted Disney a week ago regarding pet allergies and Disney hotel rooms and have not received a response outside of the immediate auto response. Last spring, both my niece and I had severe allergic reactions while staying in a room at Disney World. Although I have zero proof, I suspect a dog had recently stayed in our Disney hotel room. Both of us have been diagnosed with allergies to pet dander and our symptoms were in line with what we experience after being in someone's house who has a dog. I just got all stuffed up and miserable, but my niece experienced asthmatic symptoms including use of emergency steroid inhalers. We have another visit planned for this July. How do I request and insure that our hotel room has not had a dog in it? It doesn't matter to me if its a service dog or an emotional support dog. I just don't want to stay in any room that a dog has been in. Do those of you who have stayed at WDW with service dogs know what they do to isolate your dog? NOTE: If a hotel advertises that it is pet friendly, I do not stay in it under any circumstances.

Any advice?

It was probably not a Service Dog in the room. But Walt Disney Company for all their resorts have Beagles which are trained to sniff out Bed Bugs. Just tell Front Desk when arriving you are allergic to dogs and they will deep clean everything for you.

 

[Simon Harris]

I don't know much about dog training, but I do know who Cesar Romero was. I think the dog trainer is named Cesar Millan.

The Joker from the Adam West Batman series.

 

[Fuhnuh]

Somewhat off topic:

I contacted Disney a week ago regarding pet allergies and Disney hotel rooms and have not received a response outside of the immediate auto response. Last spring, both my niece and I had severe allergic reactions while staying in a room at Disney World. Although I have zero proof, I suspect a dog had recently stayed in our Disney hotel room. Both of us have been diagnosed with allergies to pet dander and our symptoms were in line with what we experience after being in someone's house who has a dog. I just got all stuffed up and miserable, but my niece experienced asthmatic symptoms including use of emergency steroid inhalers. We have another visit planned for this July. How do I request and insure that our hotel room has not had a dog in it? It doesn't matter to me if its a service dog or an emotional support dog. I just don't want to stay in any room that a dog has been in. Do those of you who have stayed at WDW with service dogs know what they do to isolate your dog? NOTE: If a hotel advertises that it is pet friendly, I do not stay in it under any circumstances.

Any advice?

DD14 is allergic to pet saliva and dander. We have had rooms where she has had asthmatic reactions to the room. At Disney resorts, we request a special cleaning of the room. I believe it is called a V.I.P. cleaning and have not had any issues. We have had to have our room recleaned on two different occasions and once moved from a "pet" room at Royal Pacific over at Universal. I am not sure if this cleaning will be sufficient for your needs, but I thought I'd let you know about this service.

 

[DG24]

I would think it would be better to regulate this a better way. How to explain.
1) have you heard of white cane laws, most if not all have them, and part of the law states it is a mister meaner to impersonate a blind person and use a white cane when you are not blind. We'll have you ever heard of a person being arrested for this, I have not. Why? I believe it is in how you obtain a white cane, have you ever seen one in a pharmacy, No. Can't get one there. At Walmart? No. At an eye doctors no? The only way to get a white cane is thru a state agency or a not for profit blind organization, that has a low vision clinic. So a law is on the book and therefor because it is tightly control as to how to get a white cane I have never heard anyone arrested for impersonating a blind person.

2) how would that work for dog. Same way it works for guide dogs. I will not say no service guide dog has been trained by it owner, but it is very rear. But it is even very rear and very hard to obtain a harness for a guide dog. Have you ever noticed that a guide dog is never an imposter or "fake" service animal. Why? Because you can not just buy a harness. All guide dog schools, even those that allow the handler to own the dog, never give up ownership of the harness on the dog. A person who is blind who wishes to train there own dog, has to find a leather specialist who can hand make a harness for the dog, which can be expensive.

3) if a law would make it illegal for businesses to make fake vest, badges, certificates and such for people to buy, and all service dogs needed to go to just one place to get them, a state agency (like a dept of motor vehicles), then they could make all service dogs take a test, and the state would issue a vest, harness or what ever to the dog and they would have ownership of that issue just like they have ownership of the license plate on your car.

I don't believe putting it into businesses hands will work. Wether Disney trains all staff or not to recognize a true service animal from a fake is the answer. I scratched my head one day going into DL, when a women told a cm that all five of her dogs where service dogs, who am I to question. I can't ask what her disability was, but five dogs, she would have had to have a seizure disorder, diabetes, high blood pressure, emotional problems and a dog trained to call 911, but I would have been asking why she did not have just one dog for all her needs, not a question allowed by ADA. Business have to be trained to allow a service dog. People should be held accountable for not lying to a business and trying to take a "fake" dog into it. It should be the state who takes responsibility to keep the public save, the only way to do that is to regulate the growing problem. Not taking away the right to train your own dog, train away, but the right to be the only agency to allow a dog to wear a vest or harness unless from a certified school. The sties need to be the ones to make laws and set the regulations on being the owner of the harness or vest of true service dogs, wether they come from a school or a well trained handler.

Just my opinion. Usually does not count for much.

 

[chartle]

Found 984 selections for blind cane on Amazon. Saw no restriction on buying one. Even saw a Halloween prop.

Also I have read through some of the state's white cane laws and it's only an issue if you pretend to be blind using a white cane crossing the street.

Found 484 hits for blind dog harness. Again no restrictions. Only a legal disclaimer.

 

[Gracie09]

Found 984 selections for blind cane on Amazon. Saw no restriction on buying one. Even saw a Halloween prop.

Also I have read through some of the state's white cane laws and it's only an issue if you pretend to be blind using a white cane crossing the street.

Yup and a quick google search for guide dog harnesses brings up several pages of places to buy a variety of harnesses for all occasions

 

[chartle]

3) if a law would make it illegal for businesses to make fake vest, badges, certificates and such for people to buy, and all service dogs needed to go to just one place to get them, a state agency (like a dept of motor vehicles), then they could make all service dogs take a test, and the state would issue a vest, harness or what ever to the dog and they would have ownership of that issue just like they have ownership of the license plate on your car.

Wanted to add that I think this would have to be federal since I think it would conflict with the current ADA statute and I doubt States would want to follow a federal mandate to setup a system to certify service dogs. And if it wasn't federal we would have 50 different statues. What happens when you cross state lines with your home state's certified service dog into a state that has a different view of what a service dog is?

Its a very sticky issue.

 

[chartle]

Found 484 hits for blind dog harness. Again no restrictions. Only a legal disclaimer.

Yup and a quick google search for guide dog harnesses brings up several pages of places to buy a variety of harnesses for all occasions

I updated my post but my search was incorrect I was searching for harnesses for blind dogs not guide dogs but fixed my search and found this.

http://www.amazon.com/Dean-Tyler-Gu...1433593930&sr=1-6&keywords=guide+dog+supplies

Also found one that looked just like a guide dog harness but said Emotional Support.

 

[DG24]

I am not out for an argument, but there are ten of us in a meeting right now and we read some of your responses.

One we looked up, 23 of our 50 state laws, have a law under white cane that states it is illegal to impersonate a blind person. What I said was most if not all. Well maybe I am wrong, 1/2 have a law that states this, all states have a law white cane laws. Part of the law under white cane law is about driving called the right of way law. We don't have time and do not wish to do so, but if you actually pulled up the law in the state it may be much more intense than the paragraph for each state we looked for. But I will concede that maybe it is not most, it is half. Just for argument sake.

Second, again I was not aware and none of us in this room was aware that you could by a white cane on line, makes it much easier. Yet as a disclaimer, I am not sure who Amazon is trying to sell to. We looked only on the first page, at the seven canes that came up. Not one person of average high, or weight in this room could order there cane from Amazon, because it is not the size any of us would need or use. We are all scratching our head as to what height the person would need to be for that size cane and wondering why there target is for Tweens. Enough said, most people who have never used a cane would not understand. But again for argument sake somewhere along the road it became legal to sell white canes. None of the people in this room have ever had to buy a cane, this state gives them free to all blind persons all the time. If you want a specific type than maybe you have to buy your own, but in this state you can only do that at a not for profit organization who sells low Vision Equipment to the blind, can others who are not blind buy them sure, but how many people out there know where to go and get them.

Again not to argue, I did not say you could not buy a harness, yes you can, I even stated that you can have one made. The one and only one shown online to come up has been there for years. With the experience in this room, we all state for reasons we know, this harness would not work, would brake in a matter of days and would not give the dog or the handler the needed support to guide a person. A lay person would not know that and may try to order that harness, with days and days of research you would be able to find two leather craftsmen who can hand make you a harness, it is not illegal, it is just a very unique skill, that has very little to no demand out in the market. I will not give the secret away as to why that mesh, light weight harness with rounded handle would not work, I will just state from experience of ten people In This room, that harness online is useless, if put on any dog In This room, all trained as guide dogs, the dog would not be able to lead a person safely. We added our years of experience up, we have over 400 years of working with guide dogs as a handler, could we be wrong, yes we are not the know all of everything, but we do have experience as to why a guide dog would need a leather harness, and why that would be the only thing that worked.

Just as a side note, since you all seem to like to google and find others things, we all wish to have a harness called the swedish harness, if anyone can find out where to buy one please tell us, we have been trying for more than 15 years. Best harness out there in all of our opinions, only one american school uses it and they will not sell it to anyone, you have to get your dog from that school to have one. We have not been able to find this harness anywhere even outside the U.S. so please if you would like to research and find it for us we would love to get some.

This is just my opinion, eventually federal law will change. I see only two ways to stop the abuse. Just like Disney with the change from GAC to DAS, it will not be easy, but it is becoming neccessary due to the abuse of non service animals In Public places having access. The laws that florida wants to put into effect to me, goes against ADA law as it stands now and probably will be challenged if it goes into effect. in my opinion it just does not correct the problem in a regulated manner and goes against ADA. Do we need a law to regulate the problem yes, this law will not help in any way. The OP talked many about ESD as if they are the only problem. I see the problem not as any dog or as ESD, the problem is entitlement. People today see a service animal and say I'm going to bring my dog and claim it as a service animal. If she can so can I. That is not ESD, that is just entitlement. Take any dog and say it is a service dog. Make businesses carry the blunt of knowing the difference. Have laws that are very loosely writing so that anyone can train the dog, and you have a disaster in the making. It like Disney and the GAC card will take a while to catch up, but eventually it will catch up and a new law will take effect. But a new law has to be federally writing first and then state carried out. Again only my opinion, take it from the experts, the first true service animals, guide dogs, they are the ones who opened up access to public, they are the ones who fought for laws. Regulate the vest, harness, badge and you will be able to keep a handle on the problem, fix it completely, no, but have it under control yes. Maybe you can find a few canes on line, maybe you can find a mesh, light weight harness on line, but look at how regulated it is, search another disability online and you will have hundreds of pages for equipment for that disability, w/c's, regular canes, walkers, arms braces, leg braces, back support, weighted vest, cooling vest, anything you come up with hundreds of pages to comb thru. Guide dog harness, you got one result. White canes, two pages, several on the pages where not white canes, and not one would work for an average size adult. I would say blind white cane laws work pretty good at regulating the misuse of the canes. And my opinion is a law regulating the harness, vest or badge would work good for regulating true service animals.

 

[Topper]

Anyone needing a white cane can request one from here: https://nfb.org/free-cane-program at no charge.

 

[bumbershoot]

Regulate the vest, harness, badge and you will be able to keep a handle on the problem, fix it completely, no, but have it under control yes.

Not all service dogs wear vests etc, though.

I think that supporting the businesses is where things should start. If someone in front of me has 5 dogs and says they are service dogs, I don't care. When those dogs start misbehaving and continue to do so, and the business is too scared to do what the ADA says they can do, then I care.

I didn't care that the woman who lived below us was faking that her dog (then dogs) was a service dog. The fact of her faking it didn't bother me. (the breed of the dog, otherwise not allowed in the complex, bothered me, the fact that she NEVER went anywhere with the dog (then dogs) bothered me, the fact that her 4 year old daughter would open the door with the dog sitting next to her, and some adult somewhere in the back of the apartment being totally unavailable to help bothered me) When it started bothering me in a way that really bothered me was when the dog wasn't behaving right. She wasn't under control, she would be let out without a leash (not by the owner; the owner was always at work, but by random boyfriends who had NO control over the dog) and the dog wouldn't come back. The dog got territorial over the whole building (8 units in just the one building) and twice totally cornered DH in his car, not letting him up, until the boyfriend of the owner dragged the dog up (which he delayed doing b/c he was scared of the dog). And for 2 years of this, our apartment management just took notes on all incidents, wanting a file big enough to let them be brave. We left instead.

If the *boyfriend* wouldn't let people up the stairs, stood at a car window menacing men, etc etc, the boyfriend would have been kicked out. Therefore the dog could have, too. But management was too chicken.

Get the management strong enough, get Disney strong enough, get Costco strong enough, the random bistro strong enough, and that's where I'd like to start.

Because I don't want to put any more roadblocks in the way of people who need service animals. IMO.

 

[cmwade77]

Therapy Dogs are not supposed to be allowed under the law. Service Dogs are supposed to be allowed, it's as simple as that. Disney does need to do better at keeping the "therapy dogs" and the fake service dogs out. And even if it is a service dog and it is misbehaving and the owner isn't doing anything to correct the animal, ask them to leave. They are within their rights (and are obligated to do so for safety reasons), even with service dogs.