Disney Riviera Resort

[AdamEfimoff]

But see you're following this in a logical mindset. Fact is people are so far from logical. And I also really don't think that my point on New York is negated. It's a destination, same as the world. Different clientele sure, but people justify it in their heads in both cases, and pay it.

Survey says there's no reason why people should pay for a 400 dollar room at the grand. It's really nice, frankly nicer than the Sheraton Times Square which I stayed at on my aforementioned New York trip, but probably not with 400 dollars. People justify it with nostalgia, the monorail whatever and it's not a logical mindset when you think about it. You can get a house for less than that offsite and have way more space.

I guess my point is that the consumer is very rarely logical. Hell, look at what people pay for 50 yard line seats at Gillette stadium on a fall Sunday. It's ridiculous, but it's what people do for escapism.

I have stayed at 1500 dollar a night hotels a night to budget hotels. Perception is key for a brand. More then enough people think the four seasons is better than the Sheraton otherwise they would not have the demand they do. I perceive four seasons as being luxury and Sheraton to be 'lesser' upscale property. Not everyone should view it that way. and that is why there are so many different chains and hotel types. So there is something for everyone. I am so sick of rich people are stupid stories. I have two qualifications. My parents have medical degrees. But there is a lot of reasons why people pay 3000 for singita and people pay 100 dollars for camping. Different properties are for different people. I have stayed at Sheraton at Noosa. And I would say it was worse than the four seasons but also worse then the b&b in anahiem but I guess that makes me a snob!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I have stayed at 1500 dollar a night hotels a night to budget hotels. Perception is key for a brand. More then enough people think the four seasons is better than the Sheraton otherwise they would not have the demand they do. I perceive four seasons as being luxury and Sheraton to be 'lesser' upscale property. But that is how I view it. Not how everyone should spend money. But there is a lot of reasons why people pay 3000 for singita and people pay 100 dollars for camping. Different properties are for different people. I have stayed at Sheraton at Noosa. And I would say it was worse than the four seasons but also worse then the b&b in anahiem but I guess that makes me a snob!

You're 100% right...

Which is why it is not really about supply and demand in hotels at all. Locations do matter...but perception outweighs supply and demand in most cases.

I just hate seeing "supply and demand" as the default excuse for every price level or increase across the board.

That isn't true...you're paying more because they want you to and you are accepting it carte Blanche. Which also means you have the power to control it.

But that requires effort...and thought...and keeps people from fixating on buzzwords meant for children that make adults with credit cards act like them.

Das vadanya

 

[AdamEfimoff]

You're 100% right...

Which is why it is not really about supply and demand in hotels at all. Locations do matter...but perception outweighs supply and demand in most cases.

I just hate seeing "supply and demand" as the default excuse for every price level or increase across the board.

That isn't true...you're paying more because they want you to and you are accepting it carte Blanche. Which also means you have the power to control it.

But that requires effort...and thought...and keeps people from fixating on buzzwords meant for children that make adults with credit cards act like them.

Das vadanya

its the 7 ps!!!!

 

[AdamEfimoff]

You're 100% right...

Which is why it is not really about supply and demand in hotels at all. Locations do matter...but perception outweighs supply and demand in most cases.

I just hate seeing "supply and demand" as the default excuse for every price level or increase across the board.

That isn't true...you're paying more because they want you to and you are accepting it carte Blanche. Which also means you have the power to control it.

But that requires effort...and thought...and keeps people from fixating on buzzwords meant for children that make adults with credit cards act like them.

Das vadanya

I have done a marketing course lol

 

[lockedoutlogic]

its the 7 ps!!!!

That's exactly where I hid my cheese...

 

[AdamEfimoff]

https://www.professionalacademy.com...ies---the-marketing-mix---from-4-p-s-to-7-p-s

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Ok...but the following multiple choice question sheds some light on this comparison:

What is the largest financial center in the history of this space rock?
A. Orlando
B. New York City
C. Duckburg
D. Parkersburg, Wv

??

And? The issue is whether people want to go there. Not the reason they want to go. Demand for the destination. Sometimes it is that simple. If it wasn't, and WDW pricing was so crazy out of whack, they'd be suffering and forced to drop prices. Simple.

You can (and do!) blame that largely (all?) on irrational consumers. OK! And...? Good for Disney having a solid brand that people want, marketing and capitalizing on that "irrationality".

 

[umichigan10]

So you're basically saying Disney consumers are stupid?

Ok...I yield...wish I had thought of that

All consumers that purchase nonessential items (vacations, sports tickets) are kinda dumb. It's why I've never been to a patriots game and probably won't in the foreseeable future

 

[lockedoutlogic]

And? The issue is whether people want to go there. Not the reason they want to go. Demand for the destination. Sometimes it is that simple. If it wasn't, and WDW pricing was so crazy out of whack, they'd be suffering and forced to drop prices. Simple.

You can (and do!) blame that largely (all?) on irrational consumers. OK! And...? Good for Disney having a solid brand that people want, marketing and capitalizing on that "irrationality".

And???

Making the price comparison between New York and Orlando doesn't really hold. Hotels in Orlando are not expensive due to "supply and demand"

There are 500 hotels outside of Disney property...there's isn't a supply problem.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

And???

Making the price comparison between New York and Orlando doesn't really hold. Hotels in Orlando are not expensive due to "supply and demand"

There are 500 hotels outside of Disney property...there's isn't a supply problem.

I didn't say supply. I said people want to go to the location. Whatever the reason. They charge more because they can. Those things are the same.

 

[umichigan10]

And???

Making the price comparison between New York and Orlando doesn't really hold. Hotels in Orlando are not expensive due to "supply and demand"

There are 500 hotels outside of Disney property...there's isn't a supply problem.

You can narrow that down though. People only wanna stay for example, at a Disney hotel, a deluxe one, on the monorail line. That's a finite amount of rooms they can charge a small fortune for

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I didn't say supply. I said people want to go to the location. Whatever the reason. They charge more because they can. Those things are the same.

Then the condescension wasn't necessary...because I'm not saying that the prices aren't due to perception...they are almost entirely due to that. You/that wasn't who I was addressing.

The idea that the consumer isn't responsible for the prices they pay in Orlando is the biggest myth out there. People overpay because they haven't been strong enough to stop it...particularly disney on property hotels. Those prices have not been set by the influence of competition and they have not been tied the general economy/ inflation.

I'll say it again: the poly and contemporary opened at $40 a night..."uncontrollable market forces" didn't take them to $500-600 now.

It's all perception...people have fallen for the hype, not the substance. It is what it is. But it isn't supply and demand or disney would be constantly building new rooms to keep up with demand...and they pretty much quit 15 years ago.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You can narrow that down though. People only wanna stay for example, at a Disney hotel, a deluxe one, on the monorail line. That's a finite amount of rooms they can charge a small fortune for

I get that...but if it was an issue of "supply"...then disney would have broken ground on a new rack hotel since pop century in 2001...but they haven't.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Then the condescension wasn't necessary...because I'm not saying that the prices aren't due to perception...they are almost entirely due to that. You/that wasn't who I was addressing.

The idea that the consumer isn't responsible for the prices they pay in Orlando is the biggest myth out there. People overpay because they haven't been strong enough to stop it...particularly disney on property hotels. Those prices have not been set by the influence of competition and they have not been tied the general economy/ inflation.

I'll say it again: the poly and contemporary opened at $40 a night..."uncontrollable market forces" didn't take them to $500-600 now.

It's all perception...people have fallen for the hype, not the substance. It is what it is. But it isn't supply and demand or disney would be constantly building new rooms to keep up with demand...and they pretty much quit 15 years ago.

Again -- I didn't say supply. Perception is reality here. Brand and marketing -- stay in the middle of the Magic -- etc. I decide that's worth it -- as do many -- or I'd rent a condo and drive to WDW each day.

I'm not sure what this means: "People overpay because they haven't been strong enough to stop it." We should have put our collective foot down as consumers and told Disney we won't pay? If people really felt it unreasonable, they would do that.

People vote with their wallets. And right now, people are still casting the vote that the high prices are worth it. If that changes, so will Disney's prices. Same with any tourist destination.

 

[MommaBerd]

Continuing off the rails here...I agree that Disney is not purely S&D because there are a lot of rooms in Orlando. However, there ARE limited rooms on WDW property, and those rooms come with intangible perks: 180 + 10 ADRs, 60 Day FP reservations (I think that is huge and will be even more important in the future- look at FOP), EMH, "free" parking/no resort fees (for now), and other smaller perks. I would add complimentary transportation, but really that's not limited to resort guests. I think Disney resort prices, for the room/resort itself, is incredibly high. But the intangible value of some of these other perks make it somewhat "worth it" to me. For example, we did stay off-site for part of our last trip because my MIL joined us. I strongly considered paying $70 a night for two nights for a "throw away" campsite in order to keep free parking, EMH, and FP advantage. Ultimately, I decided against it because I changed our plans and we weren't going to use the EMH and decided to upgrade to an AP. BUT I had the reservation and had budgeted for it.

Also, I wanted to address @lockedoutlogic 's constant call to take a stand against the Mouse. My DS19, who is a LOT smarter than me, likes to study game theory and philosophy and similar "intellectual" topics just for fun. As a result, I get to hear about them! The last time we were at Disney, he was really aggravated by the fact that people would "reserve" tables at the QS places while someone ordered food. We all know that the problem with that is if no one did that, then there would (most likely) be tables constantly becoming available based on the natural flow of people. But, people don't want to do that because they don't trust other people will do the same thing. It's human nature. And in some ways it models the Prisoner's Dilemma: I'm going to get what's best for me because I don't trust other people to do what's best for both of us.
Similarly, he has talked to me about "collective inaction" which I think speaks more to your cry to quit paying the high prices/indulging in the upsells, etc. It's the thought that individually, I can't really make a difference. And we hear it all the time on the boards: You aren't going back to Disney? Another person will take your place! And so, if *I* can't really make a difference, why even try? Especially if it's something I might actually enjoy.
So, you can (and maybe should?) keep repeating your cry of "just STOP!" but human nature is a difficult force to bend.

 

[MommaBerd]

It's all perception...people have fallen for the hype, not the substance. It is what it is. But it isn't supply and demand or disney would be constantly building new rooms to keep up with demand...and they pretty much quit 15 years ago.

I'm not disagreeing with your argument in whole, but I think we all know that Disney has purposefully created a "supply" problem...Kinda like the diamond industry or even oil. The supply is artificially limited to create a demand market.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Continuing off the rails here...I agree that Disney is not purely S&D because there are a lot of rooms in Orlando. However, there ARE limited rooms on WDW property, and those rooms come with intangible perks: 180 + 10 ADRs, 60 Day FP reservations (I think that is huge and will be even more important in the future- look at FOP), EMH, "free" parking/no resort fees (for now), and other smaller perks. I would add complimentary transportation, but really that's not limited to resort guests. I think Disney resort prices, for the room/resort itself, is incredibly high. But the intangible value of some of these other perks make it somewhat "worth it" to me. For example, we did stay off-site for part of our last trip because my MIL joined us. I strongly considered paying $70 a night for two nights for a "throw away" campsite in order to keep free parking, EMH, and FP advantage. Ultimately, I decided against it because I changed our plans and we weren't going to use the EMH and decided to upgrade to an AP. BUT I had the reservation and had budgeted for it.

Also, I wanted to address @lockedoutlogic 's constant call to take a stand against the Mouse. My DS19, who is a LOT smarter than me, likes to study game theory and philosophy and similar "intellectual" topics just for fun. As a result, I get to hear about them! The last time we were at Disney, he was really aggravated by the fact that people would "reserve" tables at the QS places while someone ordered food. We all know that the problem with that is if no one did that, then there would (most likely) be tables constantly becoming available based on the natural flow of people. But, people don't want to do that because they don't trust other people will do the same thing. It's human nature. And in some ways it models the Prisoner's Dilemma: I'm going to get what's best for me because I don't trust other people to do what's best for both of us.
Similarly, he has talked to me about "collective inaction" which I think speaks more to your cry to quit paying the high prices/indulging in the upsells, etc. It's the thought that individually, I can't really make a difference. And we hear it all the time on the boards: You aren't going back to Disney? Another person will take your place! And so, if *I* can't really make a difference, why even try? Especially if it's something I might actually enjoy.
So, you can (and maybe should?) keep repeating your cry of "just STOP!" but human nature is a difficult force to bend.

this post.

 

[umichigan10]

I get that...but if it was an issue of "supply"...then disney would have broken ground on a new rack hotel since pop century in 2001...but they haven't.

Like another poster said it's intentionally keeping the supply down and then converting existing rooms to DVC in order to be able to charge a premium

 

[skier_pete]

I do feel when talking about supply and demand, there's one point not to ignore:

Disney has been converting hotel rooms to DVC for two reasons (1) money in the pocket for DVC rooms but (2) drive supply and demand. They have reduced room supply at Contemporary, Polynesian, Wilderness Lodge and now Carribean Beach (ripping out roughly 20% of the rooms to put in DVC. That says something - that they have more supply than they have demand AT CURRENT PRICES. But, rather than lowering prices, they'd rather take the rooms out of service and turn them into DVC rooms - where there IS demand. In the process, they are dropping the supply of deluxe rooms - and by doing so trying to keep the supply even with the demand with current prices.

I've said it before, by catering to a smaller % of the population, Disney risks are that in another serious economic downturn (more serious than 2008) they could be in real trouble. Time will tell, they haven't hurt themselves yet. Of course, that's the point they bring back the deep discounts.

 

[amberpi]

(more serious than 2008)

Let's hope that doesn't happen again. Not sure we could take it. I was 28, my clients had included Bear and Lehman and I was working in NYC when the Dow hit 6. It was pretty darn dark times then. I think we're quick to forget how in just 9 years things have turned around - the deals at WDW were incredible in the following years though