Charles Manson has died

[OhMari]

Yeah, of course, the ole’ nature vs nuture. But, in his case, what we know about human development is that many ppl treated like that in early development should have likely ended up committing evil acts.

Early development-or can it be any time in their growing up years. I just watched the documentary of Elizabeth Smart-her 9 months of every kind of abuse possible. Did her early development help her during her abuse not have her turn out evil? While I watched her documentary I was just in awe, listening to her comments. That poor girl was only 14-what she endured. I really feel she could have flipped very easily to self destruction and taken others with her when she returned. How she came out of it-she claims her parents helped her.

 

[luvsJack]

I agree. My point is that it often has a cause or at least an origin vs a supernatural element beyond anyone’s control, so, as a society, often we can learn from where it came from or what lead to it.

I think you are misunderstanding most people's definition of evil. I don't think most people believe those like him are possessed. Doesn't change the fact that there is evil. Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, and many others can and do carry the label of evil. But that doesn't mean one necessarily thinks that evil can't be prevented or changed. While many do believe there may be supernatural beings creating the evil through the things that made these men what they were, it doesn't mean you just throw up your hands and accept that they exist.

 

[wvjules]

I am fascinated by Charles Manson and the Manson Family. I have listened to a few of his recordings. He did have some musical talent. He was a waste of a human being and I'm not sorry to see him dead. Like someone upthread said, you can see the "evil" in his eyes. He was a manipulative genius. He was evil, yes, but I do think a lot of his evilness came from his upbringing and young life. With his charisma and charm, he could have been so much more. What a waste of a life.

 

[wenrob]

I feel no sorrow for his death. But I did find him an interesting person. Evil, horrible, insane but interesting. He was the one person I saw look into a camera and you could see the insane look in his eyes and a dead look as far as emotion or remorse.

I have heard the "but he didn't commit murder, why is he in prison" arguments too. And technically he didn't physically do the deed. But the power he had over his followers was frightening. That he could get these young people do the things they did is just unimaginable. So whatever laws that are there to prosecute someone like him, I say, thank God for those laws. And the fact that there are people who still have thought of him as unfairly persecuted and may would even listen to him today is absolutely terrifying. I mean how does someone have that kind of power over people?

I’ve seen that look in Richard Ramirez’s eyes. Bone chilling.

Good riddance.

 

[LSUmiss]

I think you are misunderstanding most people's definition of evil. I don't think most people believe those like him are possessed. Doesn't change the fact that there is evil. Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, and many others can and do carry the label of evil. But that doesn't mean one necessarily thinks that evil can't be prevented or changed. While many do believe there may be supernatural beings creating the evil through the things that made these men what they were, it doesn't mean you just throw up your hands and accept that they exist.

I guess I’m referring to the comment you often hear of ppl saying the person was “just evil”. I’ve heard ppl say that a lot & to me that implies it could not have been prevented or mitigated.

 

[LSUmiss]

Early development-or can it be any time in their growing up years. I just watched the documentary of Elizabeth Smart-her 9 months of every kind of abuse possible. Did her early development help her during her abuse not have her turn out evil? While I watched her documentary I was just in awe, listening to her comments. That poor girl was only 14-what she endured. I really feel she could have flipped very easily to self destruction and taken others with her when she returned. How she came out of it-she claims her parents helped her.

There are always risk & resiliency factors to consider too. In her case, the risk factors could be the abuse, but her parents were the resiliency or mitigating factors. I think that’s exactly my point. My original comment in was in response to a pp who said that he/she doesn’t like the attention that Manson has gotten over the years, but I think ppl like him, Hitler, etc. are important to learn from.

 

[luvsJack]

There are always risk & resiliency factors to consider too. In her case, the risk factors could be the abuse, but her parents were the resiliency or mitigating factors. I think that’s exactly my point. My original comment in was in response to a pp who said that he/she doesn’t like the attention that Manson has gotten over the years, but I think ppl like him, Hitler, etc. are important to learn from.

It sounds almost cheesy and too simple but it seems to fall back to love. Her parents love her and are her strength. I would assume they did whatever they could to help her. Those like Manson perhaps never had that.

I agree that people like Manson are important to learn from.

 

[OhMari]

It sounds almost cheesy and too simple but it seems to fall back to love. Her parents love her and are her strength. I would assume they did whatever they could to help her. Those like Manson perhaps never had that.

I agree that people like Manson are important to learn from.

Catherine Oxemberg's daughter is currently in a cult. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5025655/Dynasty-s-Catherine-Oxenberg-Free-daughter-cult.html.
How do you teach your children not to be influenced by persuasive adults. This situation sounds very similar to how Charles Mansion started out.

 

[luvsJack]

Catherine Oxemberg's daughter is currently in a cult. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5025655/Dynasty-s-Catherine-Oxenberg-Free-daughter-cult.html.
How do you teach your children not to be influenced by persuasive adults. This situation sounds very similar to how Charles Mansion started out.

Oh wow! Scary stuff. I wonder that too. What is someone looking for that it makes them blindly follow someone like that?

 

[wenrob]

Catherine Oxemberg's daughter is currently in a cult. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5025655/Dynasty-s-Catherine-Oxenberg-Free-daughter-cult.html.
How do you teach your children not to be influenced by persuasive adults. This situation sounds very similar to how Charles Mansion started out.

I think some people are just more susceptible to certain things than others. Cult leaders tend to groom people and then slowly reel them in. I don’t think you necessarily had to have had a hard life to fall for it either. Elizabeth Smart seemed to have a pretty healthy upbringing but even she stayed with her captors when she had the opportunity to escape. Then you have the people who have done nothing wrong copping to heinous crimes because they’ve been worn down for hours/days and can’t take it anymore. I think we all think someone can’t get in our heads if we’re just strong enough but all it really takes is the right person pushing the right buttons.

On the other hand, I think people who commit horrific crimes already have something fundamentally wrong with them. I don’t think an unbearable childhood creates a killer but rather can trigger what is already there. People like Manson, Richard Ramirez, Jerry Strohmeyer, I don’t think they were triggered I think the things they did were inevitable even if they had lived perfect lives.

 

[LSUmiss]

I think some people are just more susceptible to certain things than others. Cult leaders tend to groom people and then slowly reel them in. I don’t think you necessarily had to have had a hard life to fall for it either. Elizabeth Smart seemed to have a pretty healthy upbringing but even she stayed with her captors when she had the opportunity to escape. Then you have the people who have done nothing wrong copping to heinous crimes because they’ve been worn down for hours/days and can’t take it anymore. I think we all think someone can’t get in our heads if we’re just strong enough but all it really takes is the right person pushing the right buttons.

On the other hand, I think people who commit horrific crimes already have something fundamentally wrong with them. I don’t think an unbearable childhood creates a killer but rather can trigger what is already there. People like Manson, Richard Ramirez, Jerry Strohmeyer, I don’t think they were triggered I think the things they did were inevitable even if they had lived perfect lives.

There have been studies to suggest that psychopaths are born without the ability to have empathy; however, there has been research that suggests that the
person’s propensity for violence has to do with their upbringing & exposure. There have been studies that suggest that as much as 25% of the general population is actually a psychopath or lacks empathy, but they don’t all engage in violent behavior or crime. Some engage is white collar type crimes & some are just extremely poor at relationships, parenting, etc b/c of their lack of empathy. I just don’t think you can discount Manson’s abuse & say his actions were inevitable. With a better childhood, he might have still lacked empathy but just would have been a bad friend or parent.

 

[wenrob]

There have been studies to suggest that psychopaths are born without the ability to have empathy; however, there has been research that suggests that the
person’s propensity for violence has to do with their upbringing & exposure. There have been studies that suggest that as much as 25% of the general population is actually a psychopath or lacks empathy, but they don’t all engage in violent behavior or crime. Some engage is white collar type crimes & some are just extremely poor at relationships, parenting, etc b/c of their lack of empathy. I just don’t think you can discount Manson’s abuse & say his actions were inevitable. With a better childhood, he might have still lacked empathy but just would have been a bad friend or parent.

It’s really hard for me to articulate exactly why I feel the way I do. There are just certain people, Manson and Strohmeyer in particular, that I personally feel in my bones wouldn’t have turned out to be better people even if they’d had perfect childhoods. I have no real basis for this so can’t make an effective argument for it even if I wanted to. My gut feeling doesn’t prove anything but it’s there nonetheless.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It is very likely Manson had Reactive Attachment Disorder based on his early history of being born to a teen single mother who was alcoholic and missing for long periods of time from Manson's life, and no involved father, later spending time with relatives when his mother was jailed, in foster homes, and eventually in reform schools and jails.

This is meant for teachers, but highlights some of the important points about RAD, and even mentions, as well, that Charles Manson likely had RAD.

http://www.attachment.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Letter-to-Teachers.pdf