Anyone following the Aziz Ansari situation?

I agree with the people that say it was a bad date. It was not sexual assault like she claims in the story. It seems like he made it obvious from the beginning what he was looking for. I think she thought he was looking for a girlfriend instead of a hook-up. She just seems young and naive to me.

Not a bash against men, but many are not very good at non-verbal clues.

yeah, my husband is one of those clueless can't read a woman guys.

We were newly married (although not newly together, as we had been together for 7 years at that point), and he went to a community business meet up. Apparently some woman there was trying her best to get his attention (hair flips, the little smiles, etc) and he wasn't aware. He geniunely was surprised when his co-workers gave him grief about it the next day.

I've seen him in action. He is THAT clueless. I pretty much threw myself at his feet (or other parts) to get him to go "oh, hey, a girl!". LOL
 
I read her account, and found it odd that she talked so much about him ignoring her non verbal cues when she ignored his very verbal huge red flag cue that he was interested in a hook up and that's it (when he put her on the counter and said what he said). I'm sorry that she felt violated, and I'm very sorry that she didn't have the self respect to leave when it became apparent that she was in a situation that she did not want to be in.
I don't think it has anything to do with self respect. I think she found herself in a situation that went faster than she expected and didn't know how to effectively deal with it.
 
I don't think it has anything to do with self respect. I think she found herself in a situation that went faster than she expected and didn't know how to effectively deal with it.
I think she stayed because he is a celebrity and she was looking for something from him. Validation? Social media fame? Maybe she idealized in her head that he was going to be her celebrity Prince Charming? it went faster than she expected and she didn't WANT to deal with it. A long time ago I was a VERY naive 23 year old and I knew how to extricate myself from those kinds of situations.
 
I think it's dismissive to call things like this "just a bad date" and sets a pretty low bar for people's behavior. I also think it's a valuable part of the overall discussion happening about harassment, assault, and behavior. I also don't think anyone wants the sort of "fame" that comes with these kinds of stories. She's been trashed all over the internet. I think the reporting was done badly and the site has been using it to boost their ratings, but I don't think she's to blame for that.

I don't think "just leave if you don't want to do X" is the answer. It's been a long time since I've been on a date, but if someone declines a particular act, why does that mean the date is immediately over and they should leave? Why isn't their room for "no problem, what would you like to do?" And meaning it, not using the rest of the night as an excuse to keep pestering for X.

When things started moving faster than she wanted, she said "Whoa, let's chill."

When he pulled his hand toward his crotch several times, she repeatedly moved it away -- I don't care how "bad" someone claims to be at nonverbal cues, repeatedly pulling away is a pretty obvious one. She describes pulling away and mumbling.

He asked her again and again. She said "next time" to get him to stop asking. He pours wine and asks if it's "next time" yet. That's not respecting verbal boundaries. Maybe she didn't say the word "no" but the words "next time" clearly signal, not tonight.

Then she says, "I don't want to feel forced." And he says, no problem, let's chill. Then he initiates *again* asking for the same thing she'd already verbally declined. She says "no," he again says they can just chill. Then he tries again. He had no interest in making sure she was comfortable with anything or respecting boundaries. He just pretended they didn't exist.
 


I think it's dismissive to call things like this "just a bad date" and sets a pretty low bar for people's behavior. I also think it's a valuable part of the overall discussion happening about harassment, assault, and behavior. I also don't think anyone wants the sort of "fame" that comes with these kinds of stories. She's been trashed all over the internet. I think the reporting was done badly and the site has been using it to boost their ratings, but I don't think she's to blame for that.

I don't think "just leave if you don't want to do X" is the answer. It's been a long time since I've been on a date, but if someone declines a particular act, why does that mean the date is immediately over and they should leave? Why isn't their room for "no problem, what would you like to do?" And meaning it, not using the rest of the night as an excuse to keep pestering for X.

When things started moving faster than she wanted, she said "Whoa, let's chill."

When he pulled his hand toward his crotch several times, she repeatedly moved it away -- I don't care how "bad" someone claims to be at nonverbal cues, repeatedly pulling away is a pretty obvious one. She describes pulling away and mumbling.

He asked her again and again. She said "next time" to get him to stop asking. He pours wine and asks if it's "next time" yet. That's not respecting verbal boundaries. Maybe she didn't say the word "no" but the words "next time" clearly signal, not tonight.

Then she says, "I don't want to feel forced." And he says, no problem, let's chill. Then he initiates *again* asking for the same thing she'd already verbally declined. She says "no," he again says they can just chill. Then he tries again. He had no interest in making sure she was comfortable with anything or respecting boundaries. He just pretended they didn't exist.

If the level of sexual activity, on a first date no less, has escalated beyond what a woman's comfortable with, the next step is to say "No Thanks", and yes, end the date and leave.
By staying, her non-verbal communication, which she claims is so vital, is giving the impression more is to come. It's very naive to think otherwise.
 
I think it's dismissive to call things like this "just a bad date" and sets a pretty low bar for people's behavior. I also think it's a valuable part of the overall discussion happening about harassment, assault, and behavior. I also don't think anyone wants the sort of "fame" that comes with these kinds of stories. She's been trashed all over the internet. I think the reporting was done badly and the site has been using it to boost their ratings, but I don't think she's to blame for that.

I don't think "just leave if you don't want to do X" is the answer. It's been a long time since I've been on a date, but if someone declines a particular act, why does that mean the date is immediately over and they should leave? Why isn't their room for "no problem, what would you like to do?" And meaning it, not using the rest of the night as an excuse to keep pestering for X.

When things started moving faster than she wanted, she said "Whoa, let's chill."

When he pulled his hand toward his crotch several times, she repeatedly moved it away -- I don't care how "bad" someone claims to be at nonverbal cues, repeatedly pulling away is a pretty obvious one. She describes pulling away and mumbling.

He asked her again and again. She said "next time" to get him to stop asking. He pours wine and asks if it's "next time" yet. That's not respecting verbal boundaries. Maybe she didn't say the word "no" but the words "next time" clearly signal, not tonight.

Then she says, "I don't want to feel forced." And he says, no problem, let's chill. Then he initiates *again* asking for the same thing she'd already verbally declined. She says "no," he again says they can just chill. Then he tries again. He had no interest in making sure she was comfortable with anything or respecting boundaries. He just pretended they didn't exist.

I think she was expecting people to be on her side, she claims all of her friends were. So when she released her story, I am sure she was surprised at the response.

It is not uncommon for one half of a date to only be going on the date for a hook up. And if that hook up is not going to happen, they see no reason to “chill”. It’s sad, but it’s also true. She has many opportunities to leave and she made the decision not to. She made the decision to engage in an act that she wasn’t ready for. Even if he pushed her head down there, she could have pulled away.

I’m sorry, but if I go on a date with someone, and they rush through dinner and the first thing they do when we get back to their place is propsition me on top of a counter, I’m leaving if that’s not something I’m interested in. He made it plainly clear what he wanted out of the date and she stayed. She needs to also accept responsibility for her behavior.
 
If the level of sexual activity, on a first date no less, has escalated beyond what a woman's comfortable with, the next step is to say "No Thanks", and yes, end the date and leave.
By staying, her non-verbal communication, which she claims is so vital, is giving the impression more is to come. It's very naive to think otherwise.
Or, the date could back off and limit their actions to what she is comfortable with. Someone who didn't want to force or pressure their date would do that. Someone who respects the other person's choices would do that.

She made it clear she was uncomfortable with how far he wanted to take things. Why aren't we holding him accountable, too? When his date says, we're not going that far tonight, if that wasn't okay with him and that's all he wanted from her, he should have called her a car right away instead of asking over and over if she'd changed her mind.

I disagree that staying means "there is more to come." He said they could get dressed and chill. She took him at his word. He lied.

The discussion has been hyperfocused on her behavior and everything everyone thinks she did wrong, and very dismissive of his part in this. I think it's sad that this is "just a bad date, what can you expect from men" as I've seen people saying around the web. I think we should expect more from dates of any gender.


Edit to add... I think she also went into it with more trust that he wouldn't be like that. He's built himself up in his standup and show as being a guy who gets it. The guy who rescues women when they're cornered by men at parties. Who wrote a book on romance and dating. "Treat potential partners like actual people" is a thing he said in his book.
 
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I also don't think anyone wants the sort of "fame" that comes with these kinds of stories. She's been trashed all over the internet. I think the reporting was done badly and the site has been using it to boost their ratings, but I don't think she's to blame for that.


When things started moving faster than she wanted, she said "Whoa, let's chill."
...
That's not respecting verbal boundaries. Maybe she didn't say the word "no" but the words "next time" clearly signal, not tonight.

.

To the first part, I don’t think anyone was saying she was looking for fame from telling the story. We were saying that perhaps she stayed longer and “played along” more because HE is famous. Perhaps she was hoping to brag to her friends about dating someone famous and possibly be in the spotlight if they stayed together for any length of time.

Instead of fame, I think she was seeking revenge in telling this story. She specifically said she was angry after he won an award and that’s when she decided to tell. All the salicious details seem to be included for the purpose of humiliating him.

As for the incident itself, I do certainly agree that he was “over eager” and rather immature, but I do think there was a strong disconnect between what she was saying and what she was doing that could contribute to a partner’s confusion.

For many people “let’s slow down” could totally mean “let’s snuggle and make out a bit on the couch while we ease into it” rather than “let’s stop”. Multiple acts had already transpired where she seemed (to him) to be a willing participant and they remained completely nude. I could certainly see where that would be a visual signal for a guy that they were not done.

I don’t have personal experience, but I would assume that most people don’t lounge around a stranger’s house nude and keep making out if they’re not interested in continuing. That would certainly be a huge non-verbal signal between my husband and I that the other is “in the mood” and wanting to be actively pursued.

I know it seems like I’m just blindly defending Aziz, but that’s really not it. I think his behavior was crudes and it does lower my opinion of him. I guess I’m just trying to emphasize that people should be a little more clear and not try to rely on non-verbal cues and verbal hints (that could be interpreted different ways). If you go to a date’s home, get completely nude, and engage physically then I think it’s fair for them to assume that you’re interested in being seduced (despite the poor attempt at executing that in this case) unless you very clearly shut it down.
 
To the first part, I don’t think anyone was saying she was looking for fame from telling the story. We were saying that perhaps she stayed longer and “played along” more because HE is famous. Perhaps she was hoping to brag to her friends about dating someone famous and possibly be in the spotlight if they stayed together for any length of time.

I was referring to posts like this from the first page:
I don't believe he's guilty of what he's being accused of. I think she taking advantage of the me to movement to get her 15 min of fame.
 
Or, the date could back off and limit their actions to what she is comfortable with. Someone who didn't want to force or pressure their date would do that. Someone who respects the other person's choices would do that.

She made it clear she was uncomfortable with how far he wanted to take things. Why aren't we holding him accountable, too? When his date says, we're not going that far tonight, if that wasn't okay with him and that's all he wanted from her, he should have called her a car right away instead of asking over and over if she'd changed her mind.

I disagree that staying means "there is more to come." He said they could get dressed and chill. She took him at his word. He lied.

The discussion has been hyperfocused on her behavior and everything everyone thinks she did wrong, and very dismissive of his part in this. I think it's sad that this is "just a bad date, what can you expect from men" as I've seen people saying around the web. I think we should expect more from dates of any gender.


Edit to add... I think she also went into it with more trust that he wouldn't be like that. He's built himself up in his standup and show as being a guy who gets it. The guy who rescues women when they're cornered by men at parties. Who wrote a book on romance and dating. "Treat potential partners like actual people" is a thing he said in his book.

Why did she get naked? Let's not forget that when most of these interactions happened they were both naked. I find the whole thing so weird
 
Or, the date could back off and limit their actions to what she is comfortable with. Someone who didn't want to force or pressure their date would do that. Someone who respects the other person's choices would do that.

She made it clear she was uncomfortable with how far he wanted to take things. Why aren't we holding him accountable, too? When his date says, we're not going that far tonight, if that wasn't okay with him and that's all he wanted from her, he should have called her a car right away instead of asking over and over if she'd changed her mind.

I disagree that staying means "there is more to come." He said they could get dressed and chill. She took him at his word. He lied.

The discussion has been hyperfocused on her behavior and everything everyone thinks she did wrong, and very dismissive of his part in this. I think it's sad that this is "just a bad date, what can you expect from men" as I've seen people saying around the web. I think we should expect more from dates of any gender.


Edit to add... I think she also went into it with more trust that he wouldn't be like that. He's built himself up in his standup and show as being a guy who gets it. The guy who rescues women when they're cornered by men at parties. Who wrote a book on romance and dating. "Treat potential partners like actual people" is a thing he said in his book.

Nowhere in the article does it say that. She says that he said "Let’s just chill over here on the couch." and '" she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter'". He didn't say let's get dressed. She didn't get dressed or ask to get dressed. I'm sorry but sitting with him naked on the couch is sending him the wrong message. She expected him to read he non-verbal clues but she was naked on his couch. That's a pretty big non-verbal clue.

ETA
He did say ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’” But, that was afterwards and they did get dressed and then he put on Seinfeld. He did not lie to her.
 
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I put a lot of blame on the website "Babe" and the so called journalist. The "facts" are flimsy and they didn't give Ansari time to respond (they contact him, and then ran the article 6 hours later). I think they used this young lade for click bait. I think she had a bad date, and that she was uncomfortable. I think what she imagined the date to be and what it turned out to be were two very different things. In my opinion she wasn't assaulted, but he did behave like a pig.
 
I believe in 100% discretion with intimate encounters. It's one thing to chat with your closest friends about it and sort out your feelings, it's absolutely immature and selfish to put it out there for the whole world to injure someone, especially under the umbrella of the metoo movement. Was he being cad? Yeah, probably, but being sexually aggressive isn't a crime. He was clearly putting his "cues" out there too. Expectations weren't matching up. She should have done the mature thing and excused herself and left.

I think this should have been a learning experience for both of them. This girl is very emotionally and socially immature. She should really stick to people her own age and he should spent more time getting to know someone and make sure they're a trustworthy partner.
 
My problems are twofold: where I come from, you don't have to say no, as long as you don't say "yes". Nowhere in the account he agreed with was there any indication of enthusiastic consent on her part. And, he stuck his fingers down her throat more than once. What? Just, egad.
 
I admit to doing things when young that I really didn’t want to do, but I was afraid to say no, I felt it was expected that this thing would happen and I wasn’t a strong enough person to make waves. I wanted to be accepted amd liked. I do think some people take advantage of this, sensing that there is resistance but moving forward anyway to get what they want.

In this case, I really feel he took advantage of his position.

I wish I wasn’t that way back then, amd I really hope young people today, really all people, feel more confident about making their wants and limits heard. I am glad that society is more open to talking about this.
 
My problems are twofold: where I come from, you don't have to say no, as long as you don't say "yes". Nowhere in the account he agreed with was there any indication of enthusiastic consent on her part.

I guess I’m not really following you. Do you mean that if someone doesn’t explicitly ask and the other person verbally say the word “yes” than that means it’s a no?

I just don’t think most people adhere to any “rule” like that. My husband and I don’t have any verbal exchange before getting intimate, but that certainly doesn’t mean that it’s not consensual.

I think for many people getting naked (and remaining nude throughout the course of the evening) and willingly performing and receiving certain acts (multiple times) would be considered a clear non-verbal “yes” to the acts that she participated in. That consent can, of course, be withdrawn at any time. Which in this case it was and he called a car to take her home.
 
My problems are twofold: where I come from, you don't have to say no, as long as you don't say "yes". Nowhere in the account he agreed with was there any indication of enthusiastic consent on her part. And, he stuck his fingers down her throat more than once. What? Just, egad.

She could have bit the darn things off. She has teeth, yes?

Sitting around nude? If that's not an indication of being into some sort of sex act, then I'm really behind in social cues....
 

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