Poll: Are you going to buy at Riviera

[ziravan]

I have a "buying question" related to Riviera for those who have more experience with new resorts. I have a June use year. I know normally if I buy points direct before June 1st that I will get bankable 2018 points and all points forward. Is that the same with a resort that isn't open yet like Riviera? Example say it goes on sale next month and I buy (before June 1st), will I still get 2018 UY points even though the resort isn't open yet?

Yes. At least, that was the case at Poly.

 

[Phatscott25]

Thanks for the response. Since you answered and I recall you stating that you bought a fixed week at Poly I have another question for you. Depending on the point chart I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a tower studio week 43 fixed week, if available. I'm assuming based on your previous answer that even though it's a fixed week that couldn't have possibly happened last October I'd still get 2018 UY points. Is that correct?

 

[CarolMN]

I have a "buying question" related to Riviera for those who have more experience with new resorts. I have a June use year. I know normally if I buy points direct before June 1st that I will get bankable 2018 points and all points forward. Is that the same with a resort that isn't open yet like Riviera? Example say it goes on sale next month and I buy (before June 1st), will I still get 2018 UY points even though the resort isn't open yet?

Yes. At least, that was the case at Poly.

AFAIK, the resort would have to actually be open and ready for occupancy before June 1, 2019 for you to get to get 2018 points (even If you sign the paperwork before then). If it doesn't open until fall, you will get 2019 points, though. No dues on purchased points until resort opens.

 

[Phatscott25]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[mustinjourney]

Others have said the same - but the fact is that as long as they gave resale members some time advance from the 7-month full-DVC access, it's extremely unlikely you would ever see ALL units occupied. In reality the problem that could occur is you only own 100 points, and ALL studios are occupied, your only option becomes a 1-BD, and suddenly you can't take a full week, only 4 days. Or you can't get consecutive nights. The funny thing is that initial resale will put you well behind the direct owners, but if you think about it, the longer you go and more of the resort goes to resale, the easier it would be to book in that secondary window. (I wonder what percent of a resort ends up being resale eventually. Does resale owners ever become the majority of owners? Let's say is Beach Club mostly direct owner or mostly resale now? No way to tell.)

I agree -- the availability chart might end up looking a lot like VGC where almost everything is gone right at 7 months.

 

[mustinjourney]

If I buy -- it will likely be resale at around $100 a point.

Although I could see the benefit of buying direct for a fixed week in the studio tower as @Phatscott25 suggested if the point charts made those rooms significantly cheaper than a studio. They look like they'd be great for trips sans kids.

The resort does look appealing, and I like the idea of gondola rides to two parks. I have to imagine that renting those rooms out would be quite easy with SW:GE coming online. My biggest pause though is DVCM's stance lately with all of the potential point reallocations. I just do not like where they're heading...so much uncertainty.

 

[CarolMN]

I agree -- the availability chart might end up looking a lot like VGC where almost everything is gone right at 7 months.

Possible, but not very likely, IMO. There is a max of 71 villas at VGC. Riviera will have around 4 times that number. My guess is that 7 month availability will be similar to BLT or BWV for at least the first several years.

 

[TexasChick123]

Possible, but not very likely, IMO. There is a max of 71 villas at VGC. Riviera will have around 4 times that number. My guess is that 7 month availability will be similar to BLT or BWV for at least the first several years.

I agree that it won’t be impossible to book some rooms at 7 months, but you’ll have to pony up for the more expensive views like you do at BLT and BWV. I’m sure the difference in points between standard and preferred will be large just like it is at those two resorts. We stay in 1- and 2-bedrooms, so the “upcharge” for a preferred view category is substantial for us.

 

[CarolMN]

I agree that it won’t be impossible to book some rooms at 7 months, but you’ll have to pony up for the more expensive views like you do at BLT and BWV. I’m sure the difference in points between standard and preferred will be large just like it is at those two resorts. We stay in 1- and 2-bedrooms, so the “upcharge” for a preferred view category is substantial for us.

Agree, but IMO, it isn't realistic to expect the less expensive views to be available at 7 months for any of the DVC resorts. Occasionally, you get lucky, but that generally hasn't ever been the rule.

 

[TexasChick123]

Agree, but IMO, it isn't realistic to expect the less expensive views to be available at 7 months for any of the DVC resorts. Occasionally, you get lucky, but that generally hasn't ever been the rule.

I always expect it to be available!!! And yes, it is unrealistic but surprises me just the same every time.

 

[Jetku]

The poll results so far shocked me!

I was originally fully on board with Riviera when it was announced. Eventually we decided to buy in last month direct to AKV. Just too many negatives in my opinion...

The resale issue is a big factor, but I think I really just don’t like that it’s sitting on the Caribbean’s property. CBR is my least favorite out of all moderates/deluxes, I don’t want that to be my view.

 

[mustinjourney]

Possible, but not very likely, IMO. There is a max of 71 villas at VGC. Riviera will have around 4 times that number. My guess is that 7 month availability will be similar to BLT or BWV for at least the first several years.

the larger amounts of rooms will certainly be in Riviera's favor. What will be interesting though is that after 5-10 years from opening, how will availability shake out with all of the resale owners at Riviera only being able to book Riviera?

 

[mustinjourney]

Oddly enough -- If Disney actually does double dip with Riviera Resales by charging $XX per point to allow those points to be used anywhere in the system, that would actually make me feel better, since I think it will actually help keep the resale prices from bottoming out (and prevent an imbalance in trading).

For example, if Disney says for a $20 per point one time fee, your points become tradable into other resorts (still don't get direct member perks though), I could see prices being about $50-$70 cheaper than direct prices ($130-$150), instead of being in the $100 range. This could be a win-win...direct owners get perks and higher resale if they need to get out, Disney makes $$$, resale purchasers get more options, and the market is more stabilized.

 

[ziravan]

Oddly enough -- If Disney actually does double dip with Riviera Resales by charging $XX per point to allow those points to be used anywhere in the system, that would actually make me feel better, since I think it will actually help keep the resale prices from bottoming out (and prevent an imbalance in trading).

For example, if Disney says for a $20 per point one time fee, your points become tradable into other resorts (still don't get direct member perks though), I could see prices being about $50-$70 cheaper than direct prices ($130-$150), instead of being in the $100 range. This could be a win-win...direct owners get perks and higher resale if they need to get out, Disney makes $$$, resale purchasers get more options, and the market is more stabilized.

But that brings in all L14 and direct owners as having standing to contest.

Once DVD attaches a value to that part of what was heretofore a deeded interest, it causes actual harm to people from whom that interest was severed. And it transfers, by necessity, value from the real estate interest to the points themselves.

DVC goes out of its way to assert that points are tokens and have no value; only the real estate interest represented by those tokens have value. There’s very real legal reasons why they do this. It's a necessary fiction for the whole system to work as a legal "timeshare". It's why DVC prohibits charging a fee to transfer points (because doing so attaches value to the points themselves) and why you're not technically renting "points", but instead renting a reservation.

Charging to make points “whole” affixes a partial and real value to those points, contrary to DVD's contractual assertions to the contrary.

You can’t parse that such an upcharge is buying into the “real estate” interest as ownership of a deeded interest already has an appurtenance of membership attached to it and participation in the reservation component is a function of membership.

No. Any such upcharge would be assigning a partial value directly to points. That’s a contractual no-no. In order to charge to rehabilitate points, DVD would have to distinguish between what’s already a deeded interest and what they’re selling, and that would be the functionality/value of the points themselves. To the point, they can't sell you "full membership" to the club as an appurtenance of ownership without a whole world of dispute about what "club membership" as an appurtenance of ownership means in the first place. Were already sold deeds ever not attached to "full memberships"? The difference is in the value of trading into the reservation system, when do home resort points become trading points; the difference is in the value of a point. And right now, by contract and by law, points don't have any value.

Even in their promotion videos, DVD clearly points out that while they may say that they are charging X dollars/point, that's merely a representation of the value of the deeded interest they're actually selling you. But can't they just say the same thing about the upcharge, that the value is merely a representation of the value of a deeded interest addition to somebody's contract? Not without redefining the meaning of "club member" -- and the original designers of DVC made that a difficult task, indeed. If something is "added" to the deed that restores a right that already was a part of the deed - and remains a part of the deed for some members without that purchase, where that leads for DVD is straight into a legal mess.

 

[Lumpy1106]

If I buy -- it will likely be resale at around $100 a point.

That's a lot higher than I would go. $75 I think is realistic, I wouldn't be interested above $50. Part of the fun of DVC is exploring the other resorts, and that includes HH, VRB and AUL, not just WDW (and VGC if you get really lucky) - Disney has already decided to be the enemy of fun with Riviera resale. No way that clears ROFR though. RIV is going to be a tough sell.

 

[Katie L]

But that brings in all L14 and direct owners as having standing to contest.

Once DVD attaches a value to that part of what was heretofore a deeded interest, it causes actual harm to people from whom that interest was severed. And it transfers, by necessity, value from the real estate interest to the points themselves.

DVC goes out of its way to assert that points are tokens and have no value; only the real estate interest represented by those tokens have value. There’s very real legal reasons why the do this.

Charging to make points “whole” affixes a partial and real value to those points, contrary to DVDs contractual assertions to the contrary.

You can’t parse that such an upcharge is buying into the “real estate” interest as ownership of a deeded interest already has an appurtenance of membership attached to it and participation in the reservation component is a function of membership.

No. Any such upcharge would be assigning a partial value directly to points. That’s a contractual no-no. In order to charge to rehabilitate points, DVD would have to distinguish between what’s already a deeded interest and what they’re selling, and that would be the functionality/value of the points themselves.

I've really appreciated everything you've had to say on this subject across multiple threads.

 

[mustinjourney]

That's a lot higher than I would go. $75 I think is realistic, I wouldn't be interested above $50. Part of the fun of DVC is exploring the other resorts, and that includes HH, VRB and AUL, not just WDW (and VGC if you get really lucky) - Disney has already decided to be the enemy of fun with Riviera resale. No way that clears ROFR though. RIV is going to be a tough sell.

Below $100 per point, I think you'd see investors buying in just to rent spec rentals. Will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[mustinjourney]

But that brings in all L14 and direct owners as having standing to contest.

Once DVD attaches a value to that part of what was heretofore a deeded interest, it causes actual harm to people from whom that interest was severed. And it transfers, by necessity, value from the real estate interest to the points themselves.

DVC goes out of its way to assert that points are tokens and have no value; only the real estate interest represented by those tokens have value. There’s very real legal reasons why they do this. It's a necessary fiction for the whole system to work as a legal "timeshare". It's why DVC prohibits charging a fee to transfer points (because doing so attaches value to the points themselves) and why you're not technically renting "points", but instead renting a reservation.

Charging to make points “whole” affixes a partial and real value to those points, contrary to DVD's contractual assertions to the contrary.

You can’t parse that such an upcharge is buying into the “real estate” interest as ownership of a deeded interest already has an appurtenance of membership attached to it and participation in the reservation component is a function of membership.

No. Any such upcharge would be assigning a partial value directly to points. That’s a contractual no-no. In order to charge to rehabilitate points, DVD would have to distinguish between what’s already a deeded interest and what they’re selling, and that would be the functionality/value of the points themselves. To the point, they can't sell you "full membership" to the club as an appurtenance of ownership without a whole world of dispute about what "club membership" as an appurtenance of ownership means in the first place. Were already sold deeds ever not attached to "full memberships"? The difference is in the value of trading into the reservation system, when do home resort points become trading points; the difference is in the value of a point. And right now, by contract and by law, points don't have any value.

Even in their promotion videos, DVD clearly points out that while they may say that they are charging X dollars/point, that's merely a representation of the value of the deeded interest they're actually selling you.

I know you've spent a lot of time reading through everything -- but I'm not following why they can't do that.

In my hypothetical, couldn't they make the upcharge not be tied to the real estate interest itself -- but would instead be a fee (that is in proportion to how many points you have) so that you are able to trade into BVTC?

Alternatively -- couldn't they just decide that anytime you want to trade into the other resorts, there is a requisite fee for doing so? Say $200 per trade? Similar to making a trade with RCI.

 

[ziravan]

I think that IF you're going to buy Riviera, a guaranteed week contract is the only way to do so.

Say for example, DVC limits the booking window for resale owners, and I believe that's going to be a necessary concession to direct owners as more resale owners jump the 11 month window (can you even imagine the future discussions of resale owners walking the Riviera window):

If I were to buy a fixed week tower studio and decide to sell it in 10 years, even if a resale buyer is subject to a 9 month booking window (they would only have one booking window), that fixed week is part of the contract: that resale owner would be guaranteed a 12 month reservation in a tower studio.

In that scenario, that would likely be the only way a resale buyer would be able to routinely stay in tower studios. Even without a different booking window, the dual functionality of a fixed week would make a huge difference to resale buyers by putting them to the head of a crowded 11 month line.

That would give quite a bit of value to such a resale.

 

[TexasChick123]

Riviera resale isn’t going to be less than $100pp. I just bought some VGC points. I can use them at the other L14 resorts, but I won’t. Most ppl don’t buy the primo resorts at those high prices to use at other properties. I paid a premium for VGC, and I only plan to use them at VGC. If I wanted to buy resale points to use them at other resorts, I would’ve bought SSR or OKW for a lot less money. I would LOVE for resale Riviera points to be cheap via resale and pick some up, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.